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LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave : Respective legal parties were involved in dialogue concerning a simplified process for members

04 Jun 2020, 13:01

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) – Royal Mail Group

No. 289/20

4th June 2020

Dear Colleagues,

Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) – Royal Mail Group

Further to LTB 243/20 issued on 5th May 2020, Branches will recall that for Employment Tribunal (ET) cases in England and Wales, the respective legal parties were involved in dialogue concerning a simplified process for members who either have an existing ET claim and are now taking further annual leave, or for members who have not yet registered a claim and therefore need to do so. These talks took on added significance given that the new annual leave period commenced on 1st April 2020 and annual leave taken from this time needs to be captured.

Richard Crabtree from Unionline has now contacted the DGS(P) Department to confirm that in relation to those cases in England and Wales, Royal Mail has agreed to the amendments proposed by Unionline, which to recap are as follows:

For existing claims new periods of holiday leave are added by this amendment without the need to submit individual applications to amend.
For new Claimants, once lodged in the normal way, then the future periods of holiday leave can be added without the need for further individual amendment.

Unionline has informed the DGS(P) Department that the Tribunal has confirmed that the above amendment and the Respondent agreement to that amendment stands and is to be repeated every three months. Richard Crabtree will therefore be repeating this again in July and has no doubt that Weightmans (the solicitors for Royal Mail Group) will continue to accept by way of agreement.

To summarise, Unionline has already made the blanket application to amend on behalf of all Claimants by saying “…additional claims for subsequent periods of underpaid holiday pay are to be added by way of amendment without the need to submit individual applications to amend”. Royal Mail has now agreed this.

Unionline has therefore stated that members who have current ET claims do not need to make further individual applications in anticipation of an eventual settlement or award. These members should however keep a legible record (supported by documents) showing:

The dates taken for the additional/new holiday leave
The pay they received for this leave
The pay they should have received (using an average of the 52 weeks’ pay prior to the start of the leave in question)

For the time being members can keep this record themselves but should be ready to disclose the information when needed, along with their payslips that show the above calculations. This information should therefore be kept safe and updated for every period of leave that is taken. Unionline will be in touch when this is required.

Those members who do not have an existing claim with the Tribunal will need to make an online application using the standard ET1 form, bearing in mind the three month time limit from the date of the deduction in their holiday pay. When completing this, members will need to:

Name the CWU as their representative
Quote their ACAS certificate number
Check that the names of both parties match the names on the ACAS certificate

It must also be reiterated that the Tribunal has asked that members do not contact them for updates.

Richard Crabtree has further advised the DGS(P) Department that in respect of the case itself and given that there are several thousand, the Tribunal will not be hearing from each Claimant.

The Department is therefore already taking steps to liaise with Unionline in order to prepare the ground for selecting a series of “Lead Claimants” from our members. Whilst a number have already been proposed we will need to ascertain that these will be representative of the various job roles and also reflect any geographical, organisational and factual differences in the way that overtime is performed in Royal Mail Group. Going forward, these lead members will be the individuals giving evidence in the Employment Tribunal and upon which all cases will be decided. Royal Mail Group will still reserve the right to take issue with any individual amounts if it were to come to deciding the “remedy” but will essentially now restrict the case to the lead Claimants.

Branches in Scotland and Northern Ireland should however note that the position in relation to both Scottish cases and those in Northern Ireland remains unchanged at present from that contained in the aforementioned LTB 243/20. This information has been reproduced below for ease of reference:

SCOTLAND

Branches will recall that all employment tribunal claims in Scotland were originally sisted until 20th April 2020. This was then extended by just over a week to 28thApril 2020.

Following an update from Unionline in Scotland, unfortunately the position is that all Tribunal hearings scheduled to take place from the middle of March until 30th June 2020 have now been cancelled. These claims will be prioritised when the Tribunal list in person hearings again.

In the telephone case management discussions involving the respective parties, in order to reschedule cancelled hearings, the Tribunal has advised that these Employment Tribunal cases will now be listed for a final hearing through Jan 2021 until March 2021.

The cases are of course safely in the system and it is possible that the timeframe for final hearings will be reduced. However, rather than raise expectations, at the time of writing we have to work on the assumption that there is likely to be a significant delay in arranging a final hearing. Unionline will be writing to the Tribunal this week to request that a telephone case management be arranged so that cases can start to be progressed.

NORTHERN IRELAND

The situation in Northern Ireland remains unchanged at present, with all cases awaiting the outcome of the case involving the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

It is unfortunate that mainly due to the COVID-19 crisis the process for Employment Tribunal hearings has become elongated, but it is still vital that Branches continue to maximise the number of claims from members. The information contained in this LTB should therefore be circulated as widely as possible.

In closing I would like to thank you for your continued hard work regarding average pay on annual leave and hope that you and your families are safe and well. Further developments will be relayed in due course.

Any enquiries in relation to the content of this LTB should be addressed to the DGS(P) Department.

Yours sincerely,

Terry Pullinger

Deputy General Secretary (Postal)

20LTB289 Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) Royal Mail Group https://emails.cwu.org/t/d-l-mhdtkkt-jtfltzjh-i/



View Online https://emails.cwu.org/t/d-l-mhdtkkt-jtfltzjh-d/

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) – Royal Mail Group

04 Jun 2020, 14:25

Sigh...

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) – Royal Mail Group

04 Jun 2020, 17:36

This has been running longer than EastEnders!

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) – Royal Mail Group

04 Jun 2020, 19:29

nickinoneck wrote:This has been running longer than EastEnders!


Some of the people involved may be paying retired members subs by the time this is resolved.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

06 Jun 2020, 19:52

Royal Mail have been breaking the law on this for years and years, it is exactly the kind of thing the union should be on top of and yet they weren't interested and instead it was down to individual members to do all the leg work.

Pathetic that it is still dragging on and people are getting ripped off every time they take annual leave.

Interest, compound interest, time taken to force Royal Mail to obey the law through precedent, penalty for obstruction, ACAS time wasted, Employment Tribunal time wasted - all must be factored into the considerable payments and penalties made to all parties affected by this.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

07 Jun 2020, 01:29

SSkUNkY wrote:Royal Mail have been breaking the law on this for years and years, it is exactly the kind of thing the union should be on top of and yet they weren't interested and instead it was down to individual members to do all the leg work.

Pathetic that it is still dragging on and people are getting ripped off every time they take annual leave.

Interest, compound interest, time taken to force Royal Mail to obey the law through precedent, penalty for obstruction, ACAS time wasted, Employment Tribunal time wasted - all must be factored into the considerable payments and penalties made to all parties affected by this.


Absolutely, we have part timers up here who don’t take leave because they cant afford to.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

07 Jun 2020, 22:44

Is there an online form to fill in to make a claim or do we still have to go through local rep ( asked mine last year and he said it was only for full time employees and he's not doing any claims for Part-timers ) ?

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

08 Jun 2020, 09:58

Talk to ACAS, this affects anyone who does overtime beyond their contracted hours be they full or part-time.

Your rep misinformed you completely.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

08 Sep 2020, 14:51

3 months and not a peep .......

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

08 Sep 2020, 21:47

As stated LTB 243/20 England and Wales

EDIT;
"A date of 5th October 2020 has then been set for a further preliminary hearing to identify the lead cases, when the ET3 is to be filed, listed and further directions given."

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

09 Sep 2020, 08:24

rogersh wrote:As stated LTB 243/20 England and Wales

EDIT;
"A date of 5th October 2020 has then been set for a further preliminary hearing to identify the lead cases, when the ET3 is to be filed, listed and further directions given."

I would have hoped the issue would be settled during these negotiations without the need for employment tribunals.
Some of the union's poorest paid members are owed hundreds of pounds. I thought it might be a priority.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

09 Sep 2020, 08:35

clashcityrocker wrote:
rogersh wrote:As stated LTB 243/20 England and Wales

EDIT;
"A date of 5th October 2020 has then been set for a further preliminary hearing to identify the lead cases, when the ET3 is to be filed, listed and further directions given."

I would have hoped the issue would be settled during these negotiations without the need for employment tribunals.
Some of the union's poorest paid members are owed hundreds of pounds. I thought it might be a priority.


Totally agree this issue has been dragged out, notwithstanding covid delay.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

29 Sep 2020, 16:10

Union is really piss poor on this.

How hard is it to force a company to comply with employment laws?
Might just go to court

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

29 Sep 2020, 17:43

MinTee wrote:Union is really piss poor on this.

How hard is it to force a company to comply with employment laws?
Might just go to court


It’s very frustrating all round. As I’ve said in previous posts there’s perhaps 20-25k Part Timers plus a fair few Full Timers affected too.

Not sure what the legal side is but it’s a shame we can’t bypass the union and RMs ‘attempts’ to resolve this and go straight to a top lawyer. I’d be quite happy for a decent % of the winnings to go to one. It must be easy pickings for a lawyer at the top of their game - 35,000 employees vs a company breaking employment law.

Anyway, we now wait till 2021. As I keep saying...Royal Mail and CWU, this issue is NOT going away and every week of stalled progress the total amount owed is rising.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

29 Sep 2020, 18:09

I’m sure RM want it sorting as well as when they have to pay out they will also have to pay out backdated interest and the amount is going up every day

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

29 Sep 2020, 18:59

How the law changed 6 April this year (basically explaining how the reference period increased to 52 weeks):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2020

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

29 Sep 2020, 22:04

iainwilson wrote:I’m sure RM want it sorting as well as when they have to pay out they will also have to pay out backdated interest and the amount is going up every day


They have no desire to sort it at all. If they did they would t continue to pay their staff in this way, literally against laws and regulations. It saves them money, there is no interest to be paid on backdated money owed, that’s not a thing. If anything the longer it’s dragged out for the easier it is for them to throw cases out of the window.

The fact it’s even going to tribunal is ridiculous.

Informing ACAS they’d not wish to early reconciliate is spitting in the face of the employees, it is literally them saying they don’t wish to uphold the law.

The law...let that sink in with how utterly useless and weak this union is.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

30 Sep 2020, 19:15

MinTee wrote:
iainwilson wrote:I’m sure RM want it sorting as well as when they have to pay out they will also have to pay out backdated interest and the amount is going up every day


They have no desire to sort it at all. If they did they would t continue to pay their staff in this way, literally against laws and regulations. It saves them money, there is no interest to be paid on backdated money owed, that’s not a thing. If anything the longer it’s dragged out for the easier it is for them to throw cases out of the window.

The fact it’s even going to tribunal is ridiculous.

Informing ACAS they’d not wish to early reconciliate is spitting in the face of the employees, it is literally them saying they don’t wish to uphold the law.

The law...let that sink in with how utterly useless and weak this union is.


I just don’t understand why the union isn’t forcing the issue. Like you say, Royal Mail are breaking employment law. The union should be all over it, they should be going to the press letting them know RM are blatantly depriving a huge percentage of their key worker employees monies they are owed by law.

I feel like just working my contracted 25 hours from here on in but it’s cutting off my nose to spite my face. I could just about manage on 25 hours a week but the extra OT (of which there is plenty) is helping me get into a position where I can retire at an early age.

Anyway just taking my emotional head off for a moment. Does anyone know if there is a deadline for owed pay? Eg if it’s not claimed within 2 (or 3, or 4 etc) years is it wiped clear? Not that I’m suggesting for one moment RM would do such a thing.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

01 Oct 2020, 22:40

HTPostman wrote:
MinTee wrote:I just don’t understand why the union isn’t forcing the issue. Like you say, Royal Mail are breaking employment law. The union should be all over it, they should be going to the press letting them know RM are blatantly depriving a huge percentage of their key worker employees monies they are owed by law.

I feel like just working my contracted 25 hours from here on in but it’s cutting off my nose to spite my face. I could just about manage on 25 hours a week but the extra OT (of which there is plenty) is helping me get into a position where I can retire at an early age.

Anyway just taking my emotional head off for a moment. Does anyone know if there is a deadline for owed pay? Eg if it’s not claimed within 2 (or 3, or 4 etc) years is it wiped clear? Not that I’m suggesting for one moment RM would do such a thing.


I think it was 3 months after your leave but is now 12. They have certainly saved tens of millions via this dodgy practice. The part timers at ours are all feeling the same as you and a good few of them are now not doing OT, everyone’s circumstances are different but if you are happy to work it and it’s giving you a better life then crack on I say. It will get sorted eventually, poor showing from the union though.

LTB 289/20 - Average Pay on Annual Leave (Holiday Pay) - Royal Mail Group

02 Oct 2020, 06:20

Grumpyoldmailman wrote:
HTPostman wrote:
MinTee wrote:I just don’t understand why the union isn’t forcing the issue. Like you say, Royal Mail are breaking employment law. The union should be all over it, they should be going to the press letting them know RM are blatantly depriving a huge percentage of their key worker employees monies they are owed by law.

I feel like just working my contracted 25 hours from here on in but it’s cutting off my nose to spite my face. I could just about manage on 25 hours a week but the extra OT (of which there is plenty) is helping me get into a position where I can retire at an early age.

Anyway just taking my emotional head off for a moment. Does anyone know if there is a deadline for owed pay? Eg if it’s not claimed within 2 (or 3, or 4 etc) years is it wiped clear? Not that I’m suggesting for one moment RM would do such a thing.


I think it was 3 months after your leave but is now 12. They have certainly saved tens of millions via this dodgy practice. The part timers at ours are all feeling the same as you and a good few of them are now not doing OT, everyone’s circumstances are different but if you are happy to work it and it’s giving you a better life then crack on I say. It will get sorted eventually, poor showing from the union though.


Thank you for that. If there was a concerted effort from all PTers to only work their contracted hours (which I think would force a solution very quickly) I’d join them but I believe that’s classed as industrial action and the union clearly don’t consider this issue high priority.

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