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LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay (Mike Newby writes back)

25 Feb 2019, 13:34

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

No. 123/19



22nd February 2019



Dear Colleague,

Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

Branches will be aware that the Union has been attempting to conclude a collective National Agreement with Royal Mail Group in relation to the long-standing but extremely complex issue of holiday pay (average pay on leave).

We believe that the law requires holiday pay to be calculated on the basis of the relevant employee’s normal pay (including overtime pay that is regularly earned, whether the overtime is compulsory, voluntary or something in between). We are also extremely clear that a National Agreement will prove the easiest way to bring this matter to a successful conclusion.

It is evident that joint mutual interest activity emanating from the Four Pillars Agreement has already resulted in a significant number of part-time members receiving additional contracted hours. Whilst this has mitigated the matter to some extent and the Union has been pursuing further increased contract variations going forward, Royal Mail Group continue to drag their feet on this issue.

I wrote to the Business on 3rd August 2018 to request that a modern and fair solution be found in line with the clear direction of travel on this matter. This correspondence was communicated to Branches via LTB 472/18. Despite this reasonable proposal, the Business continues to insist that the issue of holiday pay is a grey area in law that remains unclear and therefore cannot be resolved via a National Agreement at this time. This formed part of a response from Mike Newby (ER/IR Director) that is attached for the information of Branches.

Since this time there have been further talks between the respective legal parties, but it is wholly evident that Royal Mail Group appears to have little incentive to conclude a timely National Agreement.

The financial state of the business may well have had an impact both on their willingness to meaningfully engage with the Union and the current state of flux. It is also evident that as the legal position has developed and time has passed, they have chosen to settle a limited number of claims on an individual basis.

In law, the holiday pay calculation only applies to the first twenty days of holiday each year, inclusive of Bank Holidays. The current impasse is not about the various grades or indeed a distinction between full-time and part-time but about additional regular overtime (and regular bonus payments in MDEC’s). Put simply, it is employer versus employee.

Despite our best efforts and continued pressure, Branches will see that we have still been unable to get Royal Mail Group to the table to resume reasonable discussions, in order to collectively resolve our justifiable claim for regular and reoccurring overtime to be included in the calculation for holiday pay. The matter of overtime and holiday pay has now meandered on for some considerable time through legal channels and regrettably we have been left with no option but to pursue this through different avenues.

In conjunction with the Legal Services Department an eleven step process has been drafted (attached). This will provide Divisional Representatives, Branches and PFW Regional Organisers with a step by step guide, illustrating how to take claims for the “non-payment of holiday pay” forward.

This will initially concentrate on submitting a test case from each postcode area throughout the Country. In the event that Royal Mail Group still refuse to negotiate, the intention is then to widen the strategy by grouping the cases raised in their respective postcode areas to be submitted as a collective claim against Royal Mail Group.

Clearly this is not an insignificant piece of work, given that in excess of 70,000 Royal Mail Group employees potentially perform regular overtime. Consequently this activity will require considerable co-ordination between CWU HQ, Branches, Divisional Representatives (who have been briefed on the process) and PFW Regional Organisers (who will be briefed on the process next week).

Unfortunately Royal Mail Group does not seem to appreciate the urgency of this matter, despite being given every opportunity to negotiate in a reasonable manner. The Union can wait no longer and it is therefore incumbent on Divisional Representatives (Lead Divisional Representatives listed below), Branches and PFW Regional Organisers to take this forward in line with the attached process.



DIVISION LEAD EMAIL
Anglia Steve Butts stevebuttscwu@btinternet.com
London John Simkins johnsimkinscwu@gmail.com
Midlands Paul Kennedy paul.a.kennedy@royalmail.co.uk
North East Bob McGuire bob.mcguire@ntlworld.com
North West/North Wales Ian Taylor iantaylorcwu@aol.com
Scotland/Northern Ireland Kenny Logan logancwuscot2@live.com
South Central Terry Jackson terryscdivrep@hotmail.co.uk
South East Steve Wisely wiz.seta@btinternet.com
South West/South Wales Andy Nash a_nash@sky.com


In closing, I would like to thank Branches and members for their continued patience and input.

Any enquiries in relation to the content of this LTB should be addressed to the DGS(P) Department and further updates will be issued in due course.

Yours sincerely,



Terry Pullinger

Deputy General Secretary (Postal)

19LTB123 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay https://emails.cwu.org/t/d-l-nuudko-ztkjiuyil-i/

LTB 123.19 Attachment 1 Mike Newby Ltr https://emails.cwu.org/t/d-l-nuudko-ztkjiuyil-d/

LTB 123.19 Attachment 2 – Holiday Pay Flow Chart Final https://emails.cwu.org/t/d-l-nuudko-ztkjiuyil-h/

View Online https://emails.cwu.org/t/d-l-nuudko-ztkjiuyil-k/

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 18:06

it is wholly evident that Royal Mail Group appears to have little incentive to conclude a timely National Agreement.


Should have been resolved as part of the four pillars agreement.
Missed opportunity, now the lawyers will make money.
Pretty sad that the big scary industrial union has to go down the route of hoping that an Industrial Tribunal will ride to the rescue. I would imagine Royal Mail have already risk assessed that option and the fact that they don't see it as an incentive to negotiate an agreement tells its own story.

You can take 2 identical cases to a tribunal win one and lose the other. It's a crap shoot and if we lose the first few test cases Royal Mail's hand just gets stronger.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 18:47

4 pillars what's that
Terry pullinger just said,
new royalmail management Rico back and all the old management that didn't want any of the 4 pillars doing what they want now.
Not giving a f**k about the 4 pillars.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 19:21

does this mean you accumulate extra holidays if you work overtime ?

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 19:47

hero22 wrote:does this mean you accumulate extra holidays if you work overtime ?


No it doesn't.

The argument is over the fact that you only receive your contracted hours pay when you are on leave. So a part-timer regularly working overtime is only paid their contracted hours when they are on leave. It doesn't matter how many weeks/months/years they have been regularly doing more hours, they will only get the contracted pay. It only applies to part-timers, the maximum payment while on leave would only be the standard full-time hours.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 20:09

fb1969 wrote:
hero22 wrote:does this mean you accumulate extra holidays if you work overtime ?


No it doesn't.

The argument is over the fact that you only receive your contracted hours pay when you are on leave. So a part-timer regularly working overtime is only paid their contracted hours when they are on leave. It doesn't matter how many weeks/months/years they have been regularly doing more hours, they will only get the contracted pay. It only applies to part-timers, the maximum payment while on leave would only be the standard full-time hours.


According to that ltb it's about full timers as well, and so it should be there's plenty of full timers who do lots of overtime(more full timers in my office do overtime than part timers) so if this comes in it should apply to full time and part time workers

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 20:14

Having now read it :oops: agreed - it applies to anyone doing regular overtime, and the amount they are paid while on leave reflecting their average hours and not contracted.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 20:28

fb1969 wrote:Having now read it :oops: agreed - it applies to anyone doing regular overtime, and the amount they are paid while on leave reflecting their average hours and not contracted.

This is gonna cost royal mail a hell of a lot of money if it's forced in. It's only fair if you take 5-8 hrs overtime to complete your walk and they do nothing to it although they know it's too big, that they pay you the same on your weeks off.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

25 Feb 2019, 21:06

before I started this job I worked in a different industry and what you did was hammer the o/t 12 weeks before your holiday then you would get an average of that 12 weeks worked which inc any bonus and o/t and sometimes it was double your weekly pay , so this would cost the company big .

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

26 Feb 2019, 16:24

Judging by all the cases that are being brought against companies all over the uk, this is not an isolated issue in our industry. Surely it would be more effective to achieve average holiday pay by all the unions lobbying together, taking their case to parliament and having legislation that makes it illegal for large business owners to not pay an average of hours worked whilst on holiday.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

26 Feb 2019, 17:29

how long has this argument/debate over this issue been going on.? some time I bet.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

27 Feb 2019, 06:36

worktotime wrote:before I started this job I worked in a different industry and what you did was hammer the o/t 12 weeks before your holiday then you would get an average of that 12 weeks worked which inc any bonus and o/t and sometimes it was double your weekly pay , so this would cost the company big .



But surely assuming you're having 4-5 holiday weeks per year you would be permanently ''hammering the o/t'' prior to each week off?

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

28 Feb 2019, 15:31

Wall 74, but most other companies give their staff 2 or 3 weeks off at a time when THEY want not what the employer wants.

LTB 123/19 Royal Mail Group Holiday Pay

28 Feb 2019, 15:42

It is evident that joint mutual interest activity emanating from the Four Pillars Agreement has already resulted in a significant number of part-time members receiving additional contracted hours. Whilst this has mitigated the matter to some extent and the Union has been pursuing further increased contract variations going forward, Royal Mail Group continue to drag their feet on this issue.

I am on a 30 hour contract, was promised an increase to 35 last September but it never happened. I just don’t believe anything RM or the union say any more.

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