not on facebook
ANNOUNCEMENT : ALL OF ROYAL MAIL'S EMPLOYMENT POLICIES (AGREEMENTS) AT A GLANCE (UPDATED 2017)... HERE




Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 21:00

I distinctly recall Terry Pullinger making a point of mentioning getting a fair deal for PTers when asking for our NO vote in terms of having OT reflected in holiday, this has all gone by the wayside now?

So PTers have inferior contracts which rarely get made up, rely on OT to make a livable wage and don't get fair pay when on leave, have an inferior pension until 5 years service in the company (something the union were vehemently against a two-tier workforce sounds like just the beginning).

Not being funny but I thought the union were supposed to be looking at all this this time round?

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 21:03

I’m a full timer and only get my contracted hours paid when on holiday, even though I do a lot of overtime, so it applies to everybody not just part-timers.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 21:06

paulj3001 wrote:I’m a full timer and only get my contracted hours paid when on holiday, even though I do a lot of overtime, so it applies to everybody not just part-timers.


Yes but at a minimum PTers should get any OT performed reflected in thier holiday pay up to a 39 hour limit so it's on par with fulltimers.

Much the same way it works with the pension, any OT performed counts for pension purposes upto the normal 39 hour basic pay.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 21:31

I think one of the reasons the agreement could not address this particular issue is that it would be prejudicial to existing and pending legal action.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 22:15

It's alot easier having two weeks pay of 350+ instead of less than 250 like a part timer who would of worked full time hours before having leave.
The lack of backing for PT in this agreement stinks for me. It was something the union promised they wouldn't back down on. Yet here we are with an agreement and not a single mention of holiday pay to reflect hours worked. The ruling was made in 2014. Yet here we are. Getting shafted still in 2018

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 22:25

Having been a Part Timer I can understand your frustrations.However I can also understand the C.W.U point of view.There are several cases currently in court or going to court which may address this "paying part time wages but employing a full time worker".However frustrated you might feel & I would you might find a court of law will address this situation for you all.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 22:47

paulj3001 wrote:I’m a full timer and only get my contracted hours paid when on holiday, even though I do a lot of overtime, so it applies to everybody not just part-timers.

:Boo hoo!

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

02 Feb 2018, 23:33

Jb1969 wrote:Having been a Part Timer I can understand your frustrations.However I can also understand the C.W.U point of view.There are several cases currently in court or going to court which may address this "paying part time wages but employing a full time worker".However frustrated you might feel & I would you might find a court of law will address this situation for you all.


It might be of interest to read the post by TBT on tribunals - 2014 seems a while ago.

Responses to Employment Tribunal on Holiday Pay
Postby TrueBlueTerrier » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:37 pm

Letter to Branches


No. 710/14
Ref: GS17.4
Date: 7th November 2014

To: All Branches

Dear Colleague

Responses to Employment Tribunal on Holiday Pay

Unite the Union won a groundbreaking employment appeal tribunal on Tuesday 4 November, the successful appeal means all UK employers need to include overtime pay when calculating workers’ holiday pay.

Please see bellow a collection of responses to Employment Tribunal on Holiday Pay compiled by DeHavilland.

Confederation of British Industry (CBI) - CBI comments on holiday pay ruling
Tue, 4 November 2014 | Campaign Organisation Press Release
CBI comments on holiday pay ruling
4th November 2014
The CBI commented on an Employment Tribunal ruling that overtime should be taken into account when holiday pay is calculated.
John Cridland, CBI Director-General, said:"This is a real blow to UK businesses now facing the prospect of punitive costs potentially running into billions of pounds – and not all will survive, which could mean significant job losses.
"These cases are creating major uncertainty for businesses and impacting on investment and resourcing decisions.
"This judgment must be challenged. We need the UK Government to step up its defence of the current UK law, and use its powers to limit any retrospective liability that firms may face."

BCC - BCC: Tribunal pay ruling may be unbearable for businesses
Tue, 4 November 2014 | Campaign Organisation Press Release
Commenting on the ruling from the Employment Appeal Tribunal in the Bear Scotland versus Fulton case, Adam Marshall, Executive Director of Policy and Public Affairs at the British Chambers of Commerce said:
“This ruling is damaging for businesses across the UK. Firms could be at risk of incurring significant financial losses, which could force them to close their doors altogether.
“Managers across Britain are now in the difficult position of having to carry out more complex calculations for holiday pay; estimating overtime and commission rates of staff on holidays. This expanded definition of ‘pay’ is so ludicrous that the government itself has argued against it. No business should have to pay more than base salary during holiday periods, unless they elect to do so.
“What businesses fear most is that these judgments will open the door to backdated claims, which could run into many millions. Firms which have complied with existing regulations are shocked by the thought of having to back-pay holiday entitlements – a change they could not have predicted.
“The pressure being placed on businesses by both the British tribunals and European courts on the issue of holiday pay is becoming unbearable. After the worst recession in living memory, with many companies working to reverse pay cuts and invest in their employees, giant new pay claims could be a huge blow to their growth prospects.”

UCATT - UCATT Welcomes Overtime Holiday Pay Decision
Tue, 4 November 2014 | Campaign Organisation Press Release
Construction union UCATT have welcomed today’s (November 4th) decision at the Employment Appeals Tribunal that overtime should be included in calculating workers’ holiday pay.
Steve Murphy, General Secretary of UCATT, said: “Construction workers are often reliant on overtime to make ends meet. Workers should not be penalised by having their pay cut when taking holidays.”
UCATT will now be working to ensure that construction employers fully comply with the tribunal’s decision.
Mr Murphy, warned: “UCATT will be pursuing all construction employers to ensure that they fully comply with today’s decision and do not try to short change our members.”
If UCATT members believe that they are being underpaid for their holidays they should contact their UCATT Regional Office as soon as possible.


Holiday pay ruling is a victory for workers, says TUC
Tue, 4 November 2014 | Campaign Organisation Press Release

Commenting on the ruling today (Tuesday) that overtime should be taken into account when holiday pay is calculated, TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady said:

“Failing to count overtime when calculating holiday pay is quite simply wrong. This ruling marks a victory for people who work long and hard to make a living, and who deserve to be properly paid when they take their well-earned leave.

“Scaremongering about the possible impact of this ruling is irresponsible. British business is far more robust than some of its spokespeople would admit. It's worth remembering that in 1999 a change in the law meant that six million people gained more holiday entitlements, and businesses easily absorbed the increase and employment continued to rise.”


Institute of Economic Affairs - Media release - Employment Appeal Tribunal's decision will harm businesses
Tue, 4 November 2014 | Campaign Organisation Press Release
Employment Appeal Tribunal's decision will harm businesses
Commenting on the Employment Appeal Tribunal's decision that holiday pay should be defined to include regular overtime, Prof Len Shackleton, IEA Fellow and labour market expert, said:
"This decision has the potential to cost employers huge amounts in retrospective claims. This in turn will threaten firms' ability to create jobs in the future.
"The ruling illustrates the difficulties employers always face in interpreting badly-drafted employment laws. In this case the initiative came from the European Union's 2003 Working Directive which required paid holidays, but the Labour government of the time was also responsible for drafting unambiguous UK transposing legislation - and failed to do so.
"This verdict will be appealed, but the government should also urgently examine whether it is possible to prevent significant past claims by making this ruling applicable only from the date of the decision. In the future we ought to search much harder to find ways to deregulate the labour market whether we are in or out of the EU."
To arrange an interview please contact Camilla Goodwin, Communications Officer: 07821 971 443


Unite secures ground breaking tribunal victory over holiday pay
Tue, 4 November 2014 | Campaign Organisation Press Release
Unite members, who have been short changed by over a half of their holiday pay, have won a ground breaking employment appeal tribunal today (Tuesday 4 November), which means all UK employers now need to include overtime pay when calculating workers’ holiday pay.
The case brought by Britain’s largest union, Unite against Amec and Hertel could lead to pay outs worth thousands of pounds and paves the way for similar cases after the appeal tribunal ruled that people obliged to work overtime should have overtime pay and other bonuses and allowances included in their holiday pay.
The 16 Unite members, a mix of electricians, scaffolders and semi-skilled operatives, worked on a project at the West Burton power station site in Nottinghamshire until it came to an end in 2012.
During that time they were consistently required to work overtime and received payments for travel time. Payments for that work were not included in holiday pay, meaning that the workers received considerably less pay when on holiday, compared to when they were working.
The appeal tribunal ruling follows an appeal by Amec and Hertel over an earlier Employment Tribunal decision in February which found in favour of the workers and recent decisions by the European Court that workers should receive normal pay when on holiday.
Unite executive director for legal, membership and affiliated services Howard Beckett said: “Up until now some workers who are required to do overtime have been penalised for taking the time off they are entitled to. This ruling not only secures justice for our members who were short changed, but means employers have got to get their house in order.
“Employers will now have to include overtime in calculating holiday pay, and those that don’t should be under no illusion that Unite will fight to ensure that our members receive their full entitlement.
“Once again Unite legal services is leading the challenge to employers and demonstrating to all workers that to receive justice in the workplace you must be in a trade union.
“Unite would like to place on record our thanks to Alys Cunningham of Thompsons Solicitors for the advice and representation given to our members in this matter. Thompsons stand shoulder to shoulder with the trade union movement and have once again shown themselves to be experts in their field.”

Any enquiries on this LTB should be forwarded to the General Secretary’s Office gsoffice@cwu.org, quoting reference GS17.4

Yours sincerely

W HAYES
General Secretary
All post by me in Green are Admin Posts.
Any post in any other colour is my own responsibility.
http://warthunder.com/en/registration?r ... te_5866098
Analogue Communication Linear Vector Functionary
User avatar
TrueBlueTerrier
Offline
FORUM ADMINISTRATOR

Posts: 60936
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Proud to be part of the Union
Gender: Male

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 00:04

That would imply RM have been breaking the law since 2014 & The CWU have done nothing?

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 11:08

Surely the overtime rate should include a reflective part in it to make up for loss of the holiday pay? We can't cry about how important contracts are and then overturn them because there is a negative aspect. When a contract is signed it is very clear and includes the hours expected and payed for and this must translate to any holiday entitlement. We wouldn't want it to work the other way around, for instance if someone had done less than their contracted hours over an extended period due to family issues and then got paid this reduced amount in their holidays.
I was on a 27 hour contract when I started and did 13 hours overtime every week and remember thinking it was unfair not being paid the same in the holidays but I also remember getting a good deal on the overtime because I never actually did 13 hours, probably closer to 9.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 12:25

It has been addressed in some fashion in the new agreement.

pRT TIME 1.PNG


PT2.PNG


Incidentally so has the inability to take all your leave.

OUTSTANDING LEAVE.PNG


This agreement seems to have a lot of oversight by RM and the Union lets hope both sides keep it up.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 14:19

a lot awful lot of shoulds shown in the wording and on top of that the same s**t promise to give full time hours to part time if they are doing the hours :cuppa :cuppa :cuppa

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 17:00

Legal Agreement Agenda For Growth (January 2014)

3.1.7 The terms of the Job Security, Resourcing and Managing Change
Agreement shall remain in force with relevant provisions amended as
follows:

(D) Agency workers are intended to cover short term or
unforeseen resourcing needs, expected to last for periods of
no more than 12 weeks, which cannot be covered by offering
additional hours to existing employees whilst maintaining
quality of service. In the rare circumstances that employment
exceeds 12 weeks the provisions of the Agency Workers
Regulations 2010 (as amended) will apply.


(G) The level of part time Employees’ contracted hours will be
reviewed by the Company and the CWU locally on a six
monthly basis. Where appropriate, increased contracted
hours will be offered to reflect the hours actually worked and
planned.


2016
STAFFING PROBLEMS IN BRISTOL

The majority of delivery offices in both sectors of the BS area for many months have been running with less than the agreed number of full-time staff. This is down to the business paying total disregard to the national agreement on resourcing; replacing full time time with part time, employing staff on 20 hour Wednesday to Saturday contracts and then allowing these staff to increase their hours on an overtime basis as and when required, running alongside the managers have totally ignore the agenda for growth agreements (legally binding).

2016 A joint letter between rm & cwu resourcing & recruitment recognised concerns.
signed by Royal Mail Chief Operations Officer Sue Whalley and Terry Pullinger, DGSP, which is designed to relaunch the Joint Statement agreed in November last year.
The Joint Letter recognises that, whilst there has been some progress, last year’s Joint Statement was not fully embraced in the field and further action was therefore necessary to restore confidence and stability around resourcing.

2018
The negotiators settlement has the same clauses as the AFG in relation to Part Time & Agency staff resourcing plus the added clauses TBT has listed.

It is apparent the issue of resourcing remains ongoing despite the instances of a combined assurance (in writing at least) to resolve the matter.

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 21:16

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:It has been addressed in some fashion in the new agreement.

pRT TIME 1.PNG


PT2.PNG


Incidentally so has the inability to take all your leave.

OUTSTANDING LEAVE.PNG


This agreement seems to have a lot of oversight by RM and the Union lets hope both sides keep it up.


The phrases '..where justified we should focus.....', 'Where appropriate....', '..could have a variation....' , '...must be consistent with our current agreements.'
do not inspire me with the confidence to say that SOMETHING WILL ACTUALLY BE DONE!!!! Coulda, shoulda, woulda!!!!

Why is there nothing addressing PTers getting OT reflected in holiday pay?

03 Feb 2018, 23:03

paulj3001 wrote:I’m a full timer and only get my contracted hours paid when on holiday, even though I do a lot of overtime, so it applies to everybody not just part-timers.

The point is that a lot of part timers are being paid overtime to cover full time jobs that are vacant and not filled, so in reality people should be made up to full time so they get the benefit of holiday pay etc.

Previous page Next page


Page 1 of 2   1, 2