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Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 18:35

A message to all the part-timers getting shafted reference: Holiday Pay.

Step 1: Put in a STAGE 2 GRIEVANCE to your DOM stating that your pay should be averaged out over the previous 12 weeks. ( ... titled-to/)

Step 2: When you get a standard reply from your DOM that they aren't taking it further, click here ( When completing the form ensure you write 'Royal Mail Group LTD' as this is their legal name.

Step 3: Follow instructions and call ACAS to enter early conciliation.
Last edited by DocketLefty on 08 Oct 2016, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 18:41

Fantastic post.

Hope everybody gets on this, the more fuss we kick up maybe the union will actually earn our weekly subs and do something about it.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 18:53

Good post!

Good luck all you part timers that do extra hours on a regular basis and have been screwed during leave weeks.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 20:34

Well if you're going to argue holiday pay should reflect the previous 12 weeks hours worked, then it'd apply to FTers too.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 21:23

it applies to everyone

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 21:59

I'm sure you guys know he means part timers who are expected to work full time hours. And expected to be alright with going on holiday to be paid their lowly 20hrs/25/27.5 etc hours when they are off. But then are also expected to come in after holiday at a ft start time. But then get screwed at for starting at their contracted start time of 8/9 etc because Rm expects us to come in without offering us a full time contract that actually says we start work as a full timer should.

Just my take as I am one of those part timers who have been working as a full timer for over 4yrs and losing money going on holiday, and getting screwed at. Constantly being told there are no full time contracts anymore even using the agenda for growth agreement.

Course we don't have mortgages, bills etc to pay for, thats fine. Lets all work together now and help Rm save money by screwing part timers over.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

05 Oct 2016, 23:04

Excellent post, there have been a few of us harping on about this on here for a while. Everyone FT or part time needs to put in their claim. There is a 3 month time limit for making a claim after the period you are disputing so don't delay.
CWU in my opinion have been far too quiet on this, but frankly you don't need them, put in your claim employment law overrides employers "policy" every time.
Holiday coming up so feeling better about the overtime I've been doing!!! :Very Happy :Very Happy

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

06 Oct 2016, 04:54

So if I was off in June there is no point in trying to claim?

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

06 Oct 2016, 09:25

Some tribunals have awarded 2 years previous but tend to only award from the start of the holiday year so that's April for us

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

06 Oct 2016, 15:04

I think the answer is "No and Yes"
According to what I read, No you can't claim about that specific holiday in June but if it happens again on your next week off make a claim then and if successful you can then claim back for two years. Not 100% but think that's how it works.
My guess is ACAS and employment tribunals are getting inundated by claims for this from all sorts of jobs across the country and the 3 month rule was probably brought in to reduce the amount they have to deal with, and maybe give any sensible employer the option of accepting the ruling and paying up in future?

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

06 Oct 2016, 16:44

norm wrote:Well if you're going to argue holiday pay should reflect the previous 12 weeks hours worked, then it'd apply to FTers too.

I think there's a difference, since the company these days exclusively hires on PT contracts to do FT jobs, with the difference expected to be paid as OT. If your job is to work a FT duty then you should get that pay when you're on holiday too.

They know the work is there and that they need more FT staff to cover it, the only reason they hire on 15-25hrs is for this reason - to save money on holiday and sick pay. It's one step away from zero hours contracts.

The actual ruling that brought this in made a distinction between voluntary overtime and compulsory overtime. Technically, all OT we do is voluntary, but like I said, if you're working a job that can only be completed through overtime, then it falls somewhere between the two and I'd say more towards compulsory.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

06 Oct 2016, 19:27

If overtime is deemed regular enough it's part of your usual workload British gas lost at a tribunal because of this

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

07 Oct 2016, 08:02

Excellent, will have a more thorough read later.

This will include all overtime I assume? Morning hours for prep, extended delivery, and days off?

This is honestly excellent!

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

07 Oct 2016, 11:31

CWU Homepage Postal Holiday Pay

A number of recent employment tribunal and court judgments have changed what was previously understood to be the legal position on holiday pay. Employers in the UK have typically paid only basic pay to an employee when they take leave.

The recent tribunal and court judgments suggest that they should now be including all elements of pay an employee normally receives when they are working - such as commission or overtime payments - in their holiday pay for the first twenty days' leave they take over the holiday year.

The legal position is still developing and it is important to note that there is some uncertainty over exactly what payments this covers. There are also ongoing cases appealing some of the judgments.

The CWU is seeking to deal with the issue collectively and we are currently in the process of trying to negotiate agreements with all of the employers across the union. The aim of the union in these discussions is to resolve the issue in relation to both backdated claims and to bring holiday pay entitlements into line with the law going forward.

The fact that the union is continuing to negotiate this on members' behalves does not prevent you from making a claim yourself, should you wish to pursue this individually. However, because we are seeking to take a collective approach, and given the number of members across the CWU who may be affected by this issue, as set out in previous communications to members, the union will not be able to provide legal support to individuals who wish to make a claim themselves.

Below is some further information on making a claim, should you wish to take this forward individually.

Pursuing a claim for holiday pay individually

If members have not received what they were legally entitled to when they took leave in the past, they may also be able to make a claim for this. However, there are some important requirements for doing so under the current law:

i. any claim must be brought within three months of a single underpayment

ii. a claim that is made for several underpayments, must be made within three months of the last underpayment in the series

iii. in order to claim for several underpayments, there must not be a gap of more than three months between any two underpayments within the series.

If a claim satisfies the criteria above it may be possible to claim for underpayments of holiday pay going back to 1998, when the Working Time Regulations came into effect.

However, it is important to be aware that a two year cap will be placed on all claims that are brought after 1st July 2015. Therefore, if a member thinks they satisfy these requirements and have over two years of underpayments for holiday pay, they should consider whether they want to make a claim before this date.

A member seeking to make a claim before this deadline will need to ensure that the ACAS conciliation procedure is completed and their claim is lodged with an Employment Tribunal on or before 30th June 2015. This ACAS process must be completed before a claim can be lodged.

Members will also need to ensure that they are able to pay the Employment Tribunal fees that are now charged for such claims. These fees are typically £160 for lodging the claim and a further £230 if the case proceeds to a full hearing. New holiday pay claims are being stayed at the moment, and if you lodge a claim it is unlikely that it will in fact go forward to a full hearing.

Northern Ireland

For members in Northern Ireland, the two year cap on claims brought after 1st July does not currently apply. Claims in Northern Ireland may therefore go beyond two years, even if they are brought after this date.

There is also some uncertainty over the exact legal position in Northern Ireland with regard to point (iii) above because of the different Tribunal system it has in place. The legal advice we have received suggests that point (iii) may be confirmed in Northern Ireland when this is decided upon, so members should be aware of this possibility and may wish to get further advice on the issue if they are thinking about pursuing a claim individually.

Starting the Early Conciliation (EC) process

Before a claimant/member applies to an Employment Tribunal it will be a mandatory requirement to enter into EC via Acas.

The time limits that apply for submitting an ET1 application to the tribunal office still apply but will be frozen once the application for early conciliation has been received by Acas. This is a protected period during which time the clock is stopped with regards to the 3 month period for submitting an ET1 application.

The ET time limit clock restarts once the conciliation process ceases and the appropriate Acas certificate has been issued and received by the claimant.

Individuals can complete the early conciliation form by contacting Acas via their on line web site (this is their preferred option)

By telephone via their national helpline number 0300 123 1100

By posting the form to Acas national headquarters at EC Notifications, Acas (Phoenix), PO Box 10279, Nottingham, NG2 9PE

Acas only require the name and contact details of the claimant and name and contact details of the respondent (the employer). These details will be processed by an Acas support officer.

Once the EC application has been registered with Acas it will be passed onto an Acas officer who will then take charge of the EC process.

If at any point the Acas officer concludes that settlement of the dispute is not possible then he/she will issue an early conciliation certificate confirming the position .The certificate will be issued to the claimant by e- mail or by post if no email address has been provided. If a settlement is reached the Acas officer will draft the necessary agreement (COT3).

Please note that if either party feels a settlement cannot be reached from the start of the process then Acas will end the process and issue the certificate accordingly.

The EC certificate will have an Acas EC reference number which the claimant must quote if they decide to proceed to an Employment Tribunal.

Further information can be found on the following websites:

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

07 Oct 2016, 12:39

Last edited by madmax1 on 21 Dec 2016, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

07 Oct 2016, 19:21

Well hurrah the CWU has fnally making a statement on this, having said that I have to agree they should have been on this the moment the ruling was made.
Personally I think there is no choice but to make individual claims until it is agreed as the 3 month rule is likely to rule out a few old ones and lose people money unless you are able to take a days leave every 2-3 months.
I shall be sending an email (waste of time having a conversation as "if it isn't written down it didn't happen" will apply!!!) with the link from the CWU to my Manager when I next go on leave requesting the enhanced payment. If it's not forthcoming then it will have to be grievance time, I hope they understand its not a personal grievance but one against the employer. If everyone nationally does this I think it will help the CWU and RM to get this formally aggrieved quicker. How many posties out there? They will need to employ a few extra people to deal with them if we all do it!!
Last edited by telithowitis on 10 Oct 2016, 18:10, edited 1 time in total.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

09 Oct 2016, 19:22

Sort of related but not exactly (commission rather than overtime).......a quote from yesterdays 'i' newspaper:

"British Gas lost a high profile Court of Appeal case which could mean employees on commission are owed
thousands in holiday back pay. The long running dispute with a sales employee,......., focused on whether
commission should be included in holiday pay."

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

12 Oct 2016, 20:46

put in a stage 2 grievance

then put in a stage 3 grievance

if no resolution, contact ACAS to enter into early consolation.

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

21 Oct 2016, 18:18

great, when will the cwu update us on the situation?

Holiday Pay to Reflect actual hours worked *READ HERE*

26 Oct 2016, 15:56

Inbox if you need any help

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