sick

[woofwoof]

just been informed a postman from the east side has had a second operation (got a stage 1 for the first op)
so had to have a second op and saved all holidays for when this occured (so he didnt go down to half pay)
for some reason the stage 2 has come up and the dom has said you took the holidays for full pay but sorry you was not fit for work so it is classed as sick leave to

what you think

[viking]

Its these types of stories that should be reported to the press. This really makes my blood boil !!!. Think its about time that such behaviour should be brought to the attention of the court of human rights.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Not the point I know but he is entitled to the Annual Leave back then if they have recorded as sick leave.

[woofwoof]

Not the point I know but he is entitled to the Annual Leave back then if they have recorded as sick leave.

but then hes down to half pay

[shadow]

just been informed a postman from the east side has had a second operation (got a stage 1 for the first op)
so had to have a second op and saved all holidays for when this occured (so he didnt go down to half pay)
for some reason the stage 2 has come up and the dom has said you took the holidays for full pay but sorry you was not fit for work so it is classed as sick leave to

what you think

What a dickhead. I would take this further.

[steven100]

If i get it right he used his holidays for the second op. If they are giving him a 2nd stage he should get all his holidays back. RM are sacking staff for anything at the moment. Where is our union?????

[brothermagrew]

This may in a way clarify things:

The European Court of Justice has delivered a judgment to the effect that workers who fall sick during pre-scheduled annual leave are entitled to take the 'lost' annual leave at a different time.

In Pereda v Madrid Movilidad SA, the Court had to consider the position of a worker who was on annual leave when he fell sick. The worker wanted to take the period of time when he was unwell as sick leave, as opposed to annual leave. Generally, the view among most employers in such a scenario has been that workers are not entitled to any further annual leave; and while some employers may be generous enough to offer more annual leave, that has been thought to be something at employers' discretion. The question before the Court in Pereda was whether treating a period of sickness during annual leave as annual leave is compatible with the EC Working Time Directive, which provides European workers with paid holiday rights.

The view of the Court was that the purpose of the right to annual leave is to allow workers a period of rest and relaxation. The purpose of sick leave is quite different: it is to allow workers time off to recover from being ill. In the Court's view, it followed that a worker who is on sick leave during a period of previously scheduled annual leave is entitled to take that annual leave at another time.

The amount of replacement leave to which a worker is entitled equates to the overlap between the period of annual leave as originally scheduled; and the period for which the worker was sick.

In relation to when such 'repalcement leave' should be timed, the Court's view was that this should be subject to the normal rules of national law relating to the scheduling of annual leave. Such scheduling should have regard to the business interests of the undertaking. The Court's view was that this did not necessarily rule out the possibility of replacement leave being taken after the end of the leave year in which the leave was originally arranged.

Notes:

1. This is not the first time that the European Court of Justice has had to look at how the right to annual leave interacts with periods of sickness. In Schultz-Hoff v Deutsche Rentenverucherung Bund; Stringer and Others v HMRC, the Court ruled that workers on long-term sick leave continue to accrue annual leave entitlement. It also established the point that workers who are off sick must be given the right to take their annual leave on the return to work, even if it has to be taken in the following year.

[woofwoof]

just been informed the stage 2 was issued any ideas

[fishtank]

It would apear from brothermagrew's informative post that this is yet another case of management taking a ruling that is meant to protect workers and turning it on it's head to their advantage.
If an employer is obliged to replace annual leave if the employee is sick then obvously this sick absence will count towards any attendance standards.
It is low and despicable but may also be legal.

[General Mannerheim]

This may in a way clarify things:

The European Court of Justice has delivered a judgment to the effect that workers who fall sick during pre-scheduled annual leave are entitled to take the 'lost' annual leave at a different time.

In Pereda v Madrid Movilidad SA, the Court had to consider the position of a worker who was on annual leave when he fell sick. The worker wanted to take the period of time when he was unwell as sick leave, as opposed to annual leave. Generally, the view among most employers in such a scenario has been that workers are not entitled to any further annual leave; and while some employers may be generous enough to offer more annual leave, that has been thought to be something at employers' discretion. The question before the Court in Pereda was whether treating a period of sickness during annual leave as annual leave is compatible with the EC Working Time Directive, which provides European workers with paid holiday rights.

The view of the Court was that the purpose of the right to annual leave is to allow workers a period of rest and relaxation. The purpose of sick leave is quite different: it is to allow workers time off to recover from being ill. In the Court's view, it followed that a worker who is on sick leave during a period of previously scheduled annual leave is entitled to take that annual leave at another time.

The amount of replacement leave to which a worker is entitled equates to the overlap between the period of annual leave as originally scheduled; and the period for which the worker was sick.

In relation to when such 'repalcement leave' should be timed, the Court's view was that this should be subject to the normal rules of national law relating to the scheduling of annual leave. Such scheduling should have regard to the business interests of the undertaking. The Court's view was that this did not necessarily rule out the possibility of replacement leave being taken after the end of the leave year in which the leave was originally arranged.

Notes:

1. This is not the first time that the European Court of Justice has had to look at how the right to annual leave interacts with periods of sickness. In Schultz-Hoff v Deutsche Rentenverucherung Bund; Stringer and Others v HMRC, the Court ruled that workers on long-term sick leave continue to accrue annual leave entitlement. It also established the point that workers who are off sick must be given the right to take their annual leave on the return to work, even if it has to be taken in the following year.

I`ve just been onto HR sevices about this as I was off sick almost all of last year and didn`t take any holidays,I even ponted out the latest case that went to tribunal Shah V First West Yorkshire LTD and all I got was it`s upto your local managers discretion.
So it seems even HR sevices dump the s**t at local level as well.

[gj1023]

I don`t quite get this, if the person was on leave , then how can the manager put it down as sick leave, unless the person rang up and said i`m sick. Also the reason why the person took holiday is irrelevant, and nothing to do with RM.

I have always been told you can`t be sick and on leave, it is either one or other. I`ve been off sick for 8 months and I have 3 weeks leave owed to me.

[fishtank]

I don`t quite get this, if the person was on leave , then how can the manager put it down as sick leave, unless the person rang up and said i`m sick. Also I have always been told you can`t be sick and on leave, it is either one or other. I`ve been off sick for 8 months and I have 3 weeks leave owed to me.

Your right it is one or the other but the question is who decides which it is,you or your manager?

[gj1023]

Your right it is one or the other but the question is who decides which it is,you or your manager?

Well the answer has to be oneself, otherwise you could be on your bench and a manager has a right to look at you and say go home you are now sick.
The manager has not the right to say oh you were`nt on holiday , you were sick, he is not a doctor, only you know if you are ill .

[fishtank]

Your right it is one or the other but the question is who decides which it is,you or your manager?

Well the answer has to be oneself, otherwise you could be on your bench and a manager has a right to look at you and say go home you are now sick.
The manager has not the right to say oh you were`nt on holiday , you were sick, he is not a doctor, only you know if you are ill .

The problem arises when you enter hospital for an operation during A/L.
Obviously if after your operation you require extended sick leave or rehab your manager will ask when the operation was.
Does this give your manager the right to apply the attendance procedure from the date of the operation?
And from an employee's point of view does it entitle you to your annual leave back?

[gj1023]

The problem arises when you enter hospital for an operation during A/L.
Obviously if after your operation you require extended sick leave or rehab your manager will ask when the operation was.
Does this give your manager the right to apply the attendance procedure from the date of the operation?
And from an employee's point of view does it entitle you to your annual leave back?

Well as I see it , if the op is minor and rehab short and you wish and can take it as leave , then that`s your choice, nothing to do with RM.
As the date of an op will be known in advance normally , then it is up to you to inform your manager and explain about any rehab needed if long term.
If on leave and you get told to come in for a op , then ring manager and inform him and go sick, any leave will be owed to you.