Disagreement with Royal Mail, help!

[PamelaPorter]

I have had a dissagreement with Royal Mail over duty allication, has anyone else been in this perdictament?

I was refused a duty in LSM mech job. My office said it is a specialist job.

Does anyone have any job description details of how your office allocates duties on LSM? So that I can prove my case.

Thank you.

[baldrick]

Hi and welome to rmc
LSM operators are not a specialist job as defined by the Way Forward agreement (see downloads
section on this site).
IMP/MTT operators are designated as specialist jobs, subject to specialist selection criteria,
bur LSM operators are not.
In Mount Pleasant MC they are signed for in resigns or fit-ups as any other non-specialist jobs, and
you will then get trained for it.

It is a job you need to be trained for though, so you couldn't pick it up as a reserve, unless you
are already trained on it.

[BELIAL]

:hmmmmHi pam ,maybe you could ask your immediate manager for a career development plan, apparently RM are deeply committed to providing all staff with one. Surely LSM training is just a minor progression, nothing too daunting. No doubt they will, upon reminding of their stated commitments ,be only too pleased to help in your most worthy drive for personel development

[PamelaPorter]

Thanks for the replys.

I went for a LSM on board, and two other males applied. I was the most senior but not trained in advanced TPM. My manger gave the job to one of the males, but said that the most suitble person was the least senior of us, but gave it to neither the least senior person nor me the most senior person.

Where can I find the job description of LSM on the downloads page? Or does anyone else have another way I can see them because I need them as proof for the courts employment triubnal.

Thank you

[baldrick]

The definition of specific jobs that require specialist skills and which will be subject to selection
is at para 15.6 (Selection by Skills), in Section 6 (Way of Working) in the Way Forward Agreement.
They are:
Resourcing Unit (Bookroom);
DOM Support
Traffic Office;
Major Customer Collection drivers
(to be jointly defined at National level);
Benefits agency/Customer Mailroom;
Travelling Post Office;
Leadership roles (Formerly PHG 'A');
Heavy Goods Vehicle Driving (HGV);
Postbus (PSV);
VCS/MAA;
IMP/MTT;
Advanced TPM;
non-school training.

I don't know what Advanced TPM is or whether it is related to LSM operation.
When I worked on LSMs many years ago, I only needed a day's training. It
was fairly straightforward. Load letters on conveyor at back, take letters out
of boxes on front, switch on/off.

[Tman]

Or does anyone else have another way I can see them because I need them as proof for the courts employment triubnal.

You're really going to an ET court because you didn't get an LSM duty, even though by your own admission you haven't done TPM Advanced? Did you get advice on this first?

Don't think any court in the land is going to find against an employer for giving the job to the most suitable rather than the most senior applicant.

Aside from your personal case,the concept of seniority for operators is generally ludicrous anyway; for too long old postie Joe seniority number 1 and aged 59 3/4 got the job (whether suitable or not , usually not) as a bit of a shuffling wind-down to retirement over the young keen operators willing to learn.
Another example of the CWU being dogmatic rather than progressive in it's thinking.

[baldrick]

TMan, I don't think it is ludicrous for LSM operators to be allocated duty on
seniority. It's not that difficult, and old postie Joe (59 and 3/4), might well
be a better operator than a younger person.
I will probably go on LSMs in my last year before retirement, as the Mech Allowance
is pensionable and would boost my pension and lump sum.
And old postie Baldrick (59) is as capable as any younger colleague (and more so than some).

[Tman]

baldrick"]TMan, I don't think it is ludicrous for LSM operators to be allocated duty on
seniority. It's not that difficult, and old postie Joe (59 and 3/4), might well
be a better operator than a younger person.

He may well be. He could be more conscientious and reliable and very good at it, but, and it's a very big but, more often than not old Joe's spent a lifetime delivering post rather than doing anything remotely "technical". Modes, plans and streams are bewildering, as are touch-screens, flashing lights and buttons,or error messages, and really, he's rather not be on his feet all night long and having to keep clearing that rapidly filling S/C or Reuseable box, so he doesn't, and it jams. Continuously.
It may not be "that difficult" but there's a huge disparity between a "good" operator and a "bad" one.

The fairest way is by interview or assessment, but that seems a step too far for RM or the CWU.

[baldrick]

I don't know if 'Advanced TPM' (whatever that is) is required for LSM operators.
But if it is then it would be a specific job requiring specialist skills and which will
be subject to selection.
"Candidates will undergo an objective selection procedure, designed to
assess individual competences against the skills required for a particular job.
Where more than one candidate possesses the required capabilities, selection
will then be on the basis of seniority".
(Way Forward, Section 6. Way of Working, Selection by Skills para 15.10)/

[Tman]

"baldrick"]I don't know if 'Advanced TPM' (whatever that is) is required for LSM operators

.

It's supposed to be, but often seems to be overlooked.

But if it is then it would be a specific job requiring specialist skills and which will
be subject to selection.
"Candidates will undergo an objective selection procedure, designed to
assess individual competences against the skills required for a particular job.
Where more than one candidate possesses the required capabilities, selection
will then be on the basis of seniority".
(Way Forward, Section 6. Way of Working, Selection by Skills para 15.10)/

So that answers the original poster's question then, but it still shows the seniority process to be flawed, in that in most job interviews and selections, you pick the best candidate, end of. You don't select three or four who (supposedly) could do the job and then give it to the old boy who's been there the longest.
It's the old CWU "all staff are equal" mantra again, and it's nonsense.

[SpacePhoenix]

Hi and welome to rmc
LSM operators are not a specialist job as defined by the Way Forward agreement (see downloads
section on this site).
IMP/MTT operators are designated as specialist jobs, subject to specialist selection criteria,
bur LSM operators are not.
In Mount Pleasant MC they are signed for in resigns or fit-ups as any other non-specialist jobs, and
you will then get trained for it.

It is a job you need to be trained for though, so you couldn't pick it up as a reserve, unless you
are already trained on it.

Neither LSMs or MTTs are specialist jobs, here at Dorset, when a LSM or MTT duty is vacant it just gets put on the board whenever vacant duties go up. LSMs might possibly become specialist duties in the future with their utilization for walk sequencing.

[hubbahubba]

Hi and welome to rmc
LSM operators are not a specialist job as defined by the Way Forward agreement (see downloads
section on this site).
IMP/MTT operators are designated as specialist jobs, subject to specialist selection criteria,
bur LSM operators are not.
In Mount Pleasant MC they are signed for in resigns or fit-ups as any other non-specialist jobs, and
you will then get trained for it.

It is a job you need to be trained for though, so you couldn't pick it up as a reserve, unless you
are already trained on it.

Neither LSMs or MTTs are specialist jobs, here at Dorset, when a LSM or MTT duty is vacant it just gets put on the board whenever vacant duties go up. LSMs might possibly become specialist duties in the future with their utilization for walk sequencing.

IN MY OFFICE YOU GET THE DUTY IF YOU ARE SENIOR,AND THEN HAVE TO BE TRAINED IN THAT DUTY,INCLUDING ALL MECH,DON'T KNOW THE RIGHTS OR WRONGS OF IT AS PER "WAY FORWARD"OBVIOUSLY IF YOU DONT PASS THE TRAINING THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO REVERT BACK TO THE PREVIOUS DUTY,BUT IN 10YRS,I HAVE ONLY KNOWN 1 POSTIE FAIL A MECH COURSE.WE HAVE MANY BELOW PAR MECHIES WHERE I WORK.THATS THE STATE OF TRAINING THESE DAY.

[axeman]

ageism tman ageism your post displays a large lean towards ageism does it not ...tut,tut don't forget we do have the power within reach to challange this in the courts

[baldrick]

Well us old uns do get confused by these here new fangled machines
with the flashing lights.
I'll shuffle along now.

[Tman]

"axeman"]ageism tman ageism your post displays a large lean towards ageism does it not ..

No, but it has a "large lean" towards not employing unsuitable people in for certain roles just because they happen to have been there the longest.
A useless thirty year old could get it over a keen forty year old, merely because he's been in RM for a longer time.
See? Nothing to do with ageism..............

.tut,tut don't forget we do have the power within reach to challange this in the courts

Don't know who "we" are, but they haven't any such power, or more importantly at the present time, the will to challenge anything either. Bigger fish to fry than that......