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21 Mar 2007, 09:37

Postal union demands 27% pay rise and shorter working

Royal Mail is facing union demands for a 27 per cent pay rise that the post group claims will cost an extra £1 billion a year, The Times has learnt.

The Communication Workers Union (CWU) has asked for the minimum payment of its members to be brought into line with average basic pay in the UK. The main postal union is also demanding that its members work a 35-hour week, rather than the existing 40 hours.

The CWU says that postal workers, who earn a minimum of £311 per week, should be able to benefit from investment and improvements expected in the business over the next few years.

In a letter to Royal Mail, Dave Ward, the CWU deputy general secretary, said: “Given the proposed scale of change within the company, we require a pay settlement that achieves UK average basic pay for OPGs [outdoor postal grades]. This was set at £395 per week in 2006 and we are undertaking research to establish whether the figure has subsequently increased.â€

Catch 22

21 Mar 2007, 10:53

I've said it before and say it again.

1. If you get the pay rise then the cost will have to come from somewhere? Increased customer prices?
2. Competition so far have struggled to enter the E2E market because of the low prices, and therefore the margins don't stack up. If prices increase then they will be able to make the maths work and by-pass RM completely.

My personal view is to increase wages and make competitive with similar jobs (what is a similar job? Another debate me thinks) and reduce the size of the workforce.

What do people think?

Lance Corporal F0zzie :crazy:

21 Mar 2007, 11:59

I think it's a really fascinating debate,unfortunately at present the business is trying to reduce costs,but more crucially take
out the skilled element of sorting which warrants the higher wage.
i don't think there'd be much empathy from the public,who have little confidence in us to provide the basic service.
Once(if!)the mail gets pre-sorted can you honestly see Royal Mail paying £10/hr just for the delivery element,remember these costs are met by the more lucrative business mail which is being lost to our competitors.
On the other hand can our competitors really build up an E2E service,i mean it's one thing to take a few leaflets out,but the daily demands of magazines,bulk mail,packets etc.in all weathers is a different proposition.
we already offer £8+/hr and struggle to attract/retain personnel.so will people work for less for say TNT?
The company should take this opportunity to remember,it's greatest asset is it's workforce!!

The greatest asset

21 Mar 2007, 12:54

The greatest asset is your local knowledge.

Satnav can help a person get from A to B, but it is unlikely to ever be able to replace a cabbie who knows the knowledge, and workings of local roads

A postie has this same ability (or should). It is a question of whether this unique service proposition will be taken on board.

I also agree that machinery can help will the majority of sorting, but some specialist sorting will be required and a premium should be paid. It took me about 2 weeks of continual missort handling to get to know the roads and rounds in my DO.

TNT/DHL etc... will definitely struggle to offer as comprehensive service, which is why they have not done it yet. However, there are increasingly good routing systems out there and as long as they only have to handle 'standard' items then they can employ cheaper staff to do the job and by-pass RM.

Having said all of this I am not expecting YOU 'the postie' to rollover and go OK, don't give me a pay rise. To get 25% pay increase over the next 5 years is possible, but highly unlikely. It could only come about by knocking out 10,000+ posties (possibly nearer 25,000-30,000. This is assuming a slowdown in post going to competition, and competitors not bypassing RM and successfully doing it.

It is a complex situation and I haven't met anyone yet who is absolutely certain of the future. This includes the top strategy people in these companies and the regulator, or postwatch.

The Union should be encouraging RM to make Downstream Access as desireable as possible, so that no alternative E2E networks get set-up. RM have taken an initial step with UK Mail regarding RM's VAT advantage (see today's news).

F0zz

4hrs for 400 spondoolies.

21 Mar 2007, 14:19

When i mentioned the pay deal that the union wanted to my rep as he hadn't heard anything yet(i love the communication in the communication workers union,but that's for another thread) he said something interesting to me.
He said that he was prepared to do a 4hr walk if the pay was right,now thinking about it and i think we should,there is no doubt that the business needs to cut costs ect,now i'm not dissing the union as they have done a lot,and a lot for me locally,but i do think that to a certain extent that they have to get real.
Like i said when johnnypic 1st posted this up,the union asking for this in the current climate is a joke,maybe a few years ago when the profits were running at 5-600 £M fair enough but not now!!!

The union seem to just be worried about keeping jobs (more subs)and the future employees when they should be thinking about US NOW.
We're not going to get a 27% pay rise now ffs but would you be prepared to have one if the work came down more sorted so it gave you an option on the time spent in the office so you could do more on your walk for a higher pay?
I know i would,put me up to £400 basic and i'll do a 4hr walk,i'd bite their hand of for that,and many others would an all.

I fully understand that we should at least be up with the national average when it comes to pay and we are nowhere near it,which in all fairness is the unions fault a bit as they have had many years to try and get to it.
People retire and leave all the time and there are many in my office that want EVR,if i took on their work and got payed extra for it i wouldn't mind.

But that's the bug bear,RM it seems want us to do their work for free,but i'm sure that if we were going to get a very decent pay rise to do extra work then most of us would do it............if it was done properly!!

Completely agree with Postman

21 Mar 2007, 14:32

Postman I agree with everything you say.

My own experience suggested RM were a bit sneaky about giving mgmt for example an extra £3000 per year and taking away their right to claim overtime.

In another company they gave employees about £3k and removed their subsidised meals.

I don't work for RM, but reckon they should pay £400 a week, and also give a incentive for introducing staffing level cuts.

You see for every 1 less employee you are removing their associated costs. HR/Finance for example. These side costs are massive!

Some accuse me of being a mgmt stooge, but I come from view of fair reward for a fair days work. If only the CWU and RM management could keep this in mind, then we will keep generally nationalised postal industry providing a high quality service. We still need to do a lot more on offering the right products, and haven't see enough from RM on this. I'm surprised as Alex Batchelor came in 2 years ago now from Orange!

Off to check where my money is being taxed

Red F0zz wobbling right & left

Re: Completely agree with Postman

21 Mar 2007, 15:35

F0zziebear wrote: Red F0zz wobbling right & left


Now you sound like Tony Blair - he says he is Labour but I think he is Conservative in disguise (not a very good one though).

21 Mar 2007, 17:15

Fozzie, i must be going soft ive actualy agreed with something youve said, it was that postal staff are RM greatest asset, but if machines come in then within 10 years all that knowledge will be lost, but there is a bigger picture here, if RM reduces its staffing level witch they already have done by about 35,000, and they want to reduce it even more by another 40,000 then i can tell you now the pension is going to go into meltdown because the contributions wont be there to cover it.
I am just wishin that i have got a job in 5 years.

A 4 Hour delivery will kill people

21 Mar 2007, 17:20

Dont get to carried away postman moneys not the be all and end all.Think about what a 4 hour delivery would involve when it comes to prep, :crazy: would you get in in a frame?can you imagine throwing it ? off my walk now can take me 2 hours on a heavy day to prep and its only 2.45.you will go out like a donkey :shock: ,physically it would be to much for a lot of people (none of us are getting any younger).How will you feel on a hot summers day after a 4 hour delivery,same for the winter it will be to much and has been proven not to work(they trialed it a couple of years ago and it was a disaster)Before s.d.d people used to do a belated on docket NOT ANY MORE , WHY? TO TIRED.Auotmation will be upon us very very soon we now need a shorter working week and if i was honest a TRIMMER BETTER PAID WORK FORCE :Very Happy .In our office we do a 4 day week the best thing in my opinion weve ever done :Very Happy ,we will never get a massive pay rise or shorter working week(1.5 of in 21 years ive been in the job) so more time of is the answer NOT a 4 hour delivery. :mad With walk sequencing around the corner longer walks look to be on the cards :sad:

re: What if someone else prepped ur walk?

21 Mar 2007, 17:36

What if someone for example prepped mailsort/other (not sure what that is?) the afternoon before your round. I wonder how much would be left to throw up on a larger round after a sorting machine was in the most DO's?

You would just need some pack mules to take round the post (in automated electronic delivery trolley's).

Your knowledge is still the final remaining asset that no machinery can replace (I won't say ever as you never know).

:oops:

21 Mar 2007, 17:51

not a good idea fozz for another person to prep some body elses walk. :shock: The chances of missdeliverys will rocket as they will not be as careful as yourself when they are doing the advanced sorting and preperation on a walk THEY ARE NOT DELIVERING :no no We have heard of this before its called TEAMWORKING and it does NOT WORK in royal mail.

4 hour delivery

21 Mar 2007, 18:19

On my alley there are 3 people who do extra 1/2 delivery every day - and one wants to be a union rep - they do their own 3 - 3/12 and then do another 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hr delivery on top all 3 look knackered all the time. When we get a all drop points bulk delivery they then go to the alley boss and ask for help.

Fozzie olde son..

21 Mar 2007, 18:28

A Q: Have you prep'd a walk and walked it in your days as a SCREW? Either when WE were out or just to do a uncovered walk??? If YES then you will know with the NEW FRAMES most have in a D.O u cant prep 2s and even with a walk sorting machine the Delivering postman has it his or her way.. What if they are lefties HANDED (NOT POLITICAL) like me??? When i laid a walk in i had a certain way as Many others have. Knowledge is ALL.. Throwing off Flats either 1st or after letters is another choice? and to throw off backward for lefthanded people using the automated Mech IN sequence is A new challenge. So as u ask if another person to pre prep a walk is a good idea then me and many others will say a deff NO!!!! :no no

As you say in your posts, The Posties with the knowledge should be payed for there time and great efforts to know all the rounds and walks inside out, This is another reason Knowledge sorting is KING over Alpha or section sorting. As Jonnypick said. "RM tried this kind of TEAM WORKING b4" and it had us out on the cobbles. SO A NO AGAIN!! Sorry mate!!! :so there miss-deliverys will double if not more. If the post code like my old walks had, a joint spread over walks and a drive duty. (shops+flats above) I had on ave. 300 items a day mis sorted or as my screw told me." just one of them things" as he walked off with his shoulders shruged... Then moaned about me not getting back on time for 11s. Well that dont matter but i think you see my point. Let the MECH come in and help but fairly to the workers who use the Machines to hepl not hinder!! RM never see it like that just WE WANT IT ITS HAPPENING!!


OUT..


DONT LET THE NIGHTS GO! AND ALL YOUR HEAR IS A MECH BUNDLE HIT YA PACKET FRAME.. (BANDS BREAK) LETTERS EVERYFUCKING WHERE!!! :mad :mad :mad :mad :d'oh! :mad :mad :mad

My response tommo

21 Mar 2007, 18:46

Fozzie olde son..
A Q: Have you prep'd a walk and walked it in your days as a SCREW? Either when WE were out or just to do a uncovered walk??? YES
If YES then you will know with the NEW FRAMES most have in a D.O u cant prep 2s and even with a walk sorting machine the Delivering postman has it his or her way
New frames would need to be designed and current one's look horrendous
.. What if they are lefties HANDED (NOT POLITICAL) like me??? When i laid a walk in i had a certain way as Many others have. Knowledge is ALL.. Throwing off Flats either 1st or after letters is another choice? and to throw off backward for lefthanded people using the automated Mech IN sequence is A new challenge. So as u ask if another person to pre prep a walk is a good idea then me and many others will say a deff NO!!!!
I am talking about specialist roles and not team working, though that's always an option. Royal Mail will need to consider a wider section of the labour market. For example why can't more women (not a sexist thing please!) say off on maternity leave or with young kids come in and do prepping? I think with all these ideas trials should be done within a reasonably safe environment. Too often these things get put in without enough thought and they fail.

As you say in your posts, The Posties with the knowledge should be payed for there time and great efforts to know all the rounds and walks inside out, This is another reason Knowledge sorting is KING over Alpha or section sorting. As Jonnypick said. "RM tried this kind of TEAM WORKING b4" and it had us out on the cobbles. SO A NO AGAIN!! Sorry mate!!! miss-deliverys will double if not more. If the post code like my old walks had, a joint spread over walks and a drive duty. (shops+flats above) I had on ave. 300 items a day mis sorted or as my screw told me." just one of them things" as he walked off with his shoulders shruged... Then moaned about me not getting back on time for 11s. Well that dont matter but i think you see my point. Let the MECH come in and help but fairly to the workers who use the Machines to hepl not hinder!! RM never see it like that just WE WANT IT ITS HAPPENING!! [b] I tried doing something about that and it caused more missorts between a walk and a drive. I didn't have time within my job to work out a proper solution



OUT..


DONT LET THE NIGHTS GO! AND ALL YOUR HEAR IS A MECH BUNDLE HIT YA PACKET FRAME.. (BANDS BREAK) LETTERS EVERYFUCKING WHERE!!!


_________________
L TOMMO

I don't work for RM so my thoughts are just that!

F0zzie counting the cost of Stalin's budget![/b]

21 Mar 2007, 19:33

WE ARE ALL COUNTING THE COST OF THAT BUDGET,SCREWED WHILST WORKING SCREWED ON ME PENSION THANKS STALIN SO MUCH FOR THE WORKERS PARTY

21 Mar 2007, 19:41

An excellent thread with even better debate.

HOWEVER

Why do you all believe everything you read in the papers???

It's been Union policy for some time that we have the UK average wage.
It's been Union policy for donkey's years that we have a 35 hour week.

No one is expecting it to happen in one go, least of all the CWU, yet the story hits the press and everyone assumes we want it in one hit.

There are changes ahead so big most people won't be able to comprehend. In 5 years time Royal Mail will be unrecognisable to what it is today.

Do we fight the change or embrace it?

Do we allow those to go who want to go, shed 30,000 to 40,000 and give the rest £400 a week?

Give those thats left a 35hr week and £400/£500 a week and you'll have the most highly motivated workforce in the country in any industry.

Highly skilled, highly paid, highly motivated, and with the best quality.

And ready to kick the competition into touch.

21 Mar 2007, 21:23

Geordie, i would love to have £400 or£500 a week and a 35 hour week that isnt what RM want they want a part time workforce, Fozzie has said what ive said in previous threads on this site that they want mums who drop their kids off at school and then come in and pick a bag of mail up for 3 or 4 hours a day, the thing is as ive already said if you have what you say do you honestly think that yours and everybodys pension could stand 80,000 less contributions being paid into it, and your right in 5 years time this job will be unrecognisable and there are massive changes on the way but i dont think it will be in the way you say.

one point of information

21 Mar 2007, 21:32

I will say time and time again

Management have been cut more so than frontline staff since SDD/Mail Centre Review and Transport Review. Adam Crozier said, 'what company would put in three massive operational changes at the same time?' He thought it was madness. He also said, 'if 3,000 managerial redundancies delivers more savings than the whole of SDD and without a strike, then why are we hitting the frontline?'

I can personally inform all of you that the frontline was not supposed to be cut over recent years unless then hadn't put in SDD. There were no specific projects to do this.

Now is different. The need to upgrade machinery to compete with the competition and put in DO walksort technology will ultimately mean a reduction in Ops jobs, that means frontline/management and support roles.

One thing that Adam and Big Al do not want is poor quality of service. This is a journalists bread and butter especially 1st quality of service, and especially in areas where celebrities and journalists live (West London, and Notting Hill Gate, Islington, and some SW postcodes).

You may think I'm crackers or talking out my backside but this was the mentality whilst I was working in Head Office.

Who killed Bob?

21 Mar 2007, 23:04

Johno

I genuinely believe its possible.

Give RM (virtually) everything they want - but the trade off is a 35 hr week and uk average pay, both within 5 years.

That timescale fits in with Royal Mail's latest renewal plan, which is scheduled to last 4/5 years.

Yes, there'll be loads of AG's, but the FT people left can acheive what I've said.

I reckon the renewal plan and my aims go hand in hand.

The alternative for Royal Mail is a war which they don't want.

We either fight all their proposals, and we'll have the war, but most changes will come in bit by bit anyway....

or we embrace the change and say this is what it will cost.

The latter option has the moral high ground, puts the employer on the back foot and us in the driving seat.

Don't fancy the ride? then EVR will be available by the bucketload

21 Mar 2007, 23:21

I can tell you Fozzie that i have worked in RM for 24 years and in that time i have seen bosses given fantastic EVR settlements, NO BOSSES WERE EVER MADE REDUNDANT, the first time it happened some bosses were given an EVR package and then got a job back working for RM some as PHGs, the old pals act so please dont expect me to shed any tears over how bad they have had it, as for technology thats been taking jobs ever since the industrial revolution, but im telling you now if these machines come in they will not be any more efficient than manual sorting apart from the fact that, that they will take jobs, and in 10 years all the knowledge that makes us better than any competition will be lost. Fozzie Im still not sure whos side your on, youre too secretive for my liking.

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