Build a Rank and File Movement in the CWU

[goinpostal]

Some workers or reps are stalinist in their belief, they think that the repression was necessary or that its mostly propaganda. Wrong but are they any worse than workers who support Labour? After all they've invaded loads of countries too!

A rank and file movement is a united front, it should be open to any workers except fascists. In the 1970's the stalinists led the liason committee in defence of trade unions which organised the left, it was bureacratic but certainly had influence and support from workers.

[BELIAL]

yep pretty bad in the old USSR ;secret police ;show trials;phone taps detention centres; imprisonment without trial,centralisation of wealth and power ,establishment control of the media,millitary adventurism for strategic gains ,identity papers.... hmm.

[Spartacus]

yep pretty bad in the old USSR ;secret police ;show trials;phone taps detention centres; imprisonment without trial,centralisation of wealth and power ,establishment control of the media,millitary adventurism for strategic gains ,identity papers.... hmm.

All that is to protect us though isn't it?

That's what that nice Mr Blair said anyway.

[pcb]

How many people in this world of workers has been killed by the present system (capitalism) Answer BILLIONS! Communism was tainted by the likes of Stalin but the idea was in my opinion qiute reasonable. In 1917 the workers in this country were being mowed down by machine guns used by workers from another country and those same weapons manifactured by workers in both countries. The rich sat back and got richer. The revolution in Russia gave workers a say in their future, it was only in 1924 when Stalin bullied his way to the top through executions and disapperances that the communist system was replaced by dictatorship. Lets not get started on Lenin because at that time under servere pressure any system which threatened the ruling classes was not going to be allow to succeed. Capitalism allows people (kids and Babies included) to starve to death because the system has to make a profit. We produce more food than ever yet children of workers die from starvation. This because a few lucky privliged people want a choice in their shopping trollies. Capitalism must make a profit. The present situation we Posties are in is due to? Greedy bosses wanting? PROFIT. How about providing a public service. That what the workers want but capitalism wants profit. Unless we the workers start to realise that our cosy lives are not going to last forever under this present system, we are one day going to find ourselves well and truly F--KED!

[Wild Cat]

Communism/Fascism/Capitalism

They all do exactly the same thing,as the original ideology gets corrupted by politicians and others who wield too much power ending in the same result every time,ie mass propaganda,invasion of third world countries,millions being slaughtered,starvation,puppet dictators just to name but a few things.

Therefore I don't believe in arguing to overthrow the current political system as no matter what system you have in place human nature will be human nature and if unchecked will always lead to the same thing,so I think arguing in favour of a new ideology is missing the point.

In the case of Britain now we need to take a serious look at what our government and other political interests are up to in third world countries and what carnage they are unleashing on the poor of those countries in our name.Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg as British interests are creating havoc all around the globe all in our name and using OUR taxes to pay for it as well.

The people who are responsible for the atrocities that are being committed cannot survive without our political and financial support an example being cheap Chinese produced goods are exploiting the poor and a simple check of a label next time buying toys could undermine a whole exploitative industry.

When Gordon Brown says he is committed to reducing third World child poverty I believe he would like to but is not willing to sacrifice his career (upsetting his big business friends) by actually doing anything about it.

It would be foolish not to look at what is going on abroad as this is having a major impact on this country now with the advent of Globalisation so we need to start holding the criminals to account and NOW!!!

[IWW Fellow Worker]

How many people in this world of workers has been killed by the present system (capitalism) Answer BILLIONS! Communism was tainted by the likes of Stalin but the idea was in my opinion qiute reasonable. In 1917 the workers in this country were being mowed down by machine guns used by workers from another country and those same weapons manifactured by workers in both countries. The rich sat back and got richer. The revolution in Russia gave workers a say in their future, it was only in 1924 when Stalin bullied his way to the top through executions and disapperances that the communist system was replaced by dictatorship. Lets not get started on Lenin because at that time under servere pressure any system which threatened the ruling classes was not going to be allow to succeed. Capitalism allows people (kids and Babies included) to starve to death because the system has to make a profit. We produce more food than ever yet children of workers die from starvation. This because a few lucky privliged people want a choice in their shopping trollies. Capitalism must make a profit. The present situation we Posties are in is due to? Greedy bosses wanting? PROFIT. How about providing a public service. That what the workers want but capitalism wants profit. Unless we the workers start to realise that our cosy lives are not going to last forever under this present system, we are one day going to find ourselves well and truly F--KED!

With respect, I think the downturn started a bit earlier than 1924 when Lenin and Trotsky decided to wipe out the revolutionaries at Krontadt in 1921 and the Makhnovists in the Ukraine. Apart from that, I can't disagree with anything else you say and would be happy to kick the living crap out of the BNP any time in your company.

[borders]

Communism/Fascism/Capitalism

They all do exactly the same thing,as the original ideology gets corrupted by politicians and others who wield too much power ending in the same result every time,ie mass propaganda,invasion of third world countries,millions being slaughtered,starvation,puppet dictators just to name but a few things.

Therefore I don't believe in arguing to overthrow the current political system as no matter what system you have in place human nature will be human nature and if unchecked will always lead to the same thing,so I think arguing in favour of a new ideology is missing the point.

In the case of Britain now we need to take a serious look at what our government and other political interests are up to in third world countries and what carnage they are unleashing on the poor of those countries in our name.Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg as British interests are creating havoc all around the globe all in our name and using OUR taxes to pay for it as
The people who are responsible for the atrocities that are being committed cannot survive without our political and financial support an example being cheap Chinese produced goods are exploiting the poor and a simple check of a label next time buying toys could undermine a whole exploitative industry.

When Gordon Brown says he is committed to reducing third World child poverty I believe he would like to but is not willing to sacrifice his career (upsetting his big business friends) by actually doing anything about it.

It would be foolish not to look at what is going on abroad as this is having a major impact on this country now with the advent of Globalisation so we need to start holding the criminals to account and NOW!!!

--some good reasons there, to want to overthrow the present political system !!!!!

[catch]

whats your problem with tankies norbert

They're Stalinists! We all have a problem with them.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tankie

A hardline Stalinist. A tankie is a member of a communist group or a "fellow traveler" (sympathizer) who believes fully in the political system of the Soviet Union and defends/defended the actions of the Soviet Union and other accredited states (China, Serbia, etc.) to the hilt, even in cases where other communists criticise their policies or actions. For instance, such a person favours overseas interventions by Soviet-style states, defends these regimes when they engage in human rights violations, and wishes to establish a similar system in other countries such as Britain and America.

Oooo I can see why.

Yep, it's the people who cheered when tanks went into Budapest in 1956 - just about everyone decent had left the Communist Party by that point (if not much, much earlier), and there was a mass exodus when that happened - the rump that was left is the tankies.

With respect, I think the downturn started a bit earlier than 1924 when Lenin and Trotsky decided to wipe out the revolutionaries at Krontadt in 1921 and the Makhnovists in the Ukraine. Apart from that, I can't disagree with anything else you say and would be happy to kick the living crap out of the BNP any time in your company.

Nah it started just after October 1917 when they started incorporating the factory committees into the state, and reached full speed in 1918 when they nationalised industry (that had been directly controlled by workers) - enthusiastically carrying out Taylorism and one-man management. To PCB - with outside pressure, yes it's likely that whatever happened with the Bolsheviks the revolution would have failed, but it doesn't excuse them enthusiastically carrying out a rapid programme of capital accumulation, one that started before the civil war even got going. The working class (including many rank and file Bolsheviks) achieved a lot in 1917, and the part immediately started dismantling it as soon as they had the opportunity.

goin postal: I agree that all factions of the ruling class (whether stalinist, New Labour, Tory) are essentially as bad as each other, although the scale of their crapness is obviously very different due to historical accident. Also I'll work with anyone in terms of day to day workplace organising regardless of political belief as long as they're solid at work. Having said that, the trots and tankies will go out of their way to gain control of rank and file groups as soon as they get started, and usually strangle them of all useful activity, directing all the energies into 'campaigns' and party building - hence the opening post quoting (trots) Workers Power. So individuals with whatever politics I have no problem with on a day-to-day level, but their organisations and ideological framework need to be completely excluded for anything to work.

[pcb]

Catch. I cannot see any refernce to any organisational system that the workers can use to change this system, like I said the problems we face are serious for us but are small compaired to billions of workers around the world. Problem being one day our children will wake up to a very different world of hire and fire contracts, private healthcare, 100 year mortgages, private schools, no ttade unions just staff associations the list is endless and last but not least the rich WILL GET RICHER from our misery!

[norbet colon]

whats your problem with tankies norbert

They're Stalinists! We all have a problem with them.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tankie

A hardline Stalinist. A tankie is a member of a communist group or a "fellow traveler" (sympathizer) who believes fully in the political system of the Soviet Union and defends/defended the actions of the Soviet Union and other accredited states (China, Serbia, etc.) to the hilt, even in cases where other communists criticise their policies or actions. For instance, such a person favours overseas interventions by Soviet-style states, defends these regimes when they engage in human rights violations, and wishes to establish a similar system in other countries such as Britain and America.

-sorry I've seen how they operate in pairs in another union -not nice -Bob Crowes one, basically it's the pied piper thing , as for trots we'd see all these people appear from nowhere @ union meetings nobody knew & hi-jack things .Best bit about Tankies was in the book "Things can only get better " which I heard seralised -there was this CPGB Meeting where the Chairman talked of "Uncle Joe's Little Pranks ".Mandys former CPGB , mindset stays the same , but there's a shift to just left of Hitler.

Oooo I can see why.

[catch]

Catch. I cannot see any refernce to any organisational system that the workers can use to change this system

You mean in my post? I'd look at the factory committees and soviets in the Russian Revolution, the workers councils and strike committees in Germany (then later Hungary '56, Poland '56, Paris '68, Portugal '74, Poland 1980, Albania '97 and many more), the CNT and collectives in Spain '36 - there's plenty of examples. None of them made it for various organisational and historical reasons so it's not a matter of trying to recreate them, but learning from both their successes and failures.

[dvbuk55]

Catch. I cannot see any refernce to any organisational system that the workers can use to change this system

You mean in my post? I'd look at the factory committees and soviets in the Russian Revolution, the workers councils and strike committees in Germany (then later Hungary '56, Poland '56, Paris '68, Portugal '74, Poland 1980, Albania '97 and many more), the CNT and collectives in Spain '36 - there's plenty of examples. None of them made it for various organisational and historical reasons so it's not a matter of trying to recreate them, but learning from both their successes and failures.

Well I don't want to be the Jeremiah here but 36 to 97 is 61 years and I would have thought that was long enough to learn - IF IT WAS WORKABLE - it isn't.

[IWW Fellow Worker]

Catch. I cannot see any refernce to any organisational system that the workers can use to change this system

You mean in my post? I'd look at the factory committees and soviets in the Russian Revolution, the workers councils and strike committees in Germany (then later Hungary '56, Poland '56, Paris '68, Portugal '74, Poland 1980, Albania '97 and many more), the CNT and collectives in Spain '36 - there's plenty of examples. None of them made it for various organisational and historical reasons so it's not a matter of trying to recreate them, but learning from both their successes and failures.

Well I don't want to be the Jeremiah here but 36 to 97 is 61 years and I would have thought that was long enough to learn - IF IT WAS WORKABLE - it isn't.

Yes, capitalism works so well. Leighton and Crozier certainly think so.

[dvbuk55]

Catch. I cannot see any refernce to any organisational system that the workers can use to change this system

You mean in my post? I'd look at the factory committees and soviets in the Russian Revolution, the workers councils and strike committees in Germany (then later Hungary '56, Poland '56, Paris '68, Portugal '74, Poland 1980, Albania '97 and many more), the CNT and collectives in Spain '36 - there's plenty of examples. None of them made it for various organisational and historical reasons so it's not a matter of trying to recreate them, but learning from both their successes and failures.

Well I don't want to be the Jeremiah here but 36 to 97 is 61 years and I would have thought that was long enough to learn - IF IT WAS WORKABLE - it isn't.

Yes, capitalism works so well. Leighton and Crozier certainly think so.

It's OK to be an idealist, you just shouldn't confuse it with real life. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "Come the revolution Brother" during my lifetime. I can imagine over the decades back street pubs with a smokey side room half full of would be revolutionaries discussing the failure of the system. Leighton and Crozier aren't the only ones who have prospered from the system, we all have. As a nation we enjoy a quality of life the envy of many because of it.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

or perhaps despite capitalism - it depends entirely on your POV