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Sick absence - after surviving a Stage 3

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Carnoustie
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Sick absence - after surviving a Stage 3

Post by Carnoustie »

Anyone know what happens if you go off sick more than 12 months after walking out of the Last Chance Saloon :wink:
Some blokes on the floor reckon your records wiped clean if you go a year without a sickie, but that don't seem right to me. I've also been told to watch out cos there is some rule about having a certain number of stage warnings of ANY kind in a three year period that triggers an automatic RTU !!! Who's right about this ?
I don't really want to decorate the bedroom yet anyway, so if I can tell the missus that I can't throw a sickie cos my job will be on the line, I can get out of doing it :Very Happy

Cheers
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POSTMAN
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Post by POSTMAN »

Welcome to the club :nana err i think.
I was on an rtu last March,if you go 12mths with no sick it goes down to a stage 1.
If you go 18mths it all gets wiped clean.
As for the automatic one,that's bollox,i've NEVER heard of that.

And as for the decorating you lazy sod :no no you're a Postman,you've got loads of time :Very Happy (That's what my missus says anyway :d'oh!)
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
Carnoustie
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Post by Carnoustie »

I don't believe it ! Some geezer in my office hasn't been in for two days and is marked down as 'O/A'

Now I know that
A/L = annual leave
SP/L = special leave
S/L = off sick
U/A = unauthorised absence

But O/A ?? wtf is that when it's at home ? Do we get paid for 'O/A' absences ? And more important, are they counted towards the attendance procedure :dance That decorating won't do itself :roll:
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POSTMAN
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Post by POSTMAN »

O/A Never heard of that :crazy:
Answers on a postcard please lads :wave
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
L Tommo
Posts: 3165
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 09:43
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Post by L Tommo »

Ello Hertshog.. Just a comment on O/A. It stands 4 OTHER ABSENCE. And is open 4 people who aint sick but off with a domestic, Like CAT CAUGHT UP TREE, BIG TOE STUCK IN BATH TAP, Or best 1 ive heard, D2D/s fell over and had 2 lay them in again... So the gent phoned in O/A. And this was his reason,,, I kid u not!!! As u know RM rules seem 2 b there 4 some and NOT 4 all.. If your face fits, and all that.. I personly would tell Ur line manager U have a URGENT DOMESTIC, and wish 2 apply 4 Special Leave, A is paid,,, VERY RARE! C is unpaid,, MORE LIKELY!!! But if u have 2 take a day/s off this is the way 2 do it with out going on ur sick record.. Hope this helps mate.. Ive worked in E, London Bookroom and have heard n seen nearly all the Bull n tricks played, But as i said,, FACE FITS, U GET AWAY WIV IT!!! The thoughts on Automatic RTU is wrong 2 me? Never heard of it but i wouldnt put it past RM 2 have slipped that in under the watchfull drunken (aledged) gaze of Our Union...

Wot do you think of the fact the Union has let RM have NO APPEAL against a stg 1 and 2 sickness?? I think its scandelous myself that any manager now can fast track u thru RM procedure that has been agreed with by CWU (way forward) I know ive had it done 2 me,, And im still fighting it after nearly 2 half years... The IR wasnt adhered 2 and dirty tricks were played,, Anyway enough of my rants.. Good luck wiv the wallpapering Lad..


DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN, or the misses wiv the housework ! but dont quote me on that bit :pray :wave :crazy: OUT........................................................................................................................................
L TOMMO.... ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM........

EAST LONDON MAIL CENTER-ISHHHH
F0zziebear
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balance between understanding manager and taking the mickey

Post by F0zziebear »

Basically as a line manager I tried to give as much lee way as possible. I personally felt that if a postie had an understanding line manager they are more likely to do a good job.

The problem: When some little gobshite decides to start taking the p*ss with your good will and spoils it for everyone else.

Once that happens you turn into a seargent major and enforce the rules, don't trsut anyone and it all starts to get a bit ugly.

Not sure if that answers the question.

For you south Londoners Daniella Spagnoli was/is the HR business partner and you should email her directly on daniela.spagnoli@royalmail.com

Your DOM will have information on the Royalmail Intranet site with very specific guidelines on how to run RTU's and how all the stage warnings work etc... This should be avaiable quite easily and if not demand it under the freedom of information act. Your union rep should know it inside out or at least get you a copy for bedtime reading.

Second thing is for the clever ones to read it and work out that you can take a certain amount of time off in any given period without triggering stage warnings. I won't give you any more info on this one!!!

the F0zz
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RE: Balance between understanding manager N taking the micky

Post by L Tommo »

I think your right Fozzie, A good manager does act reasonable and understanding There is always someone who takes the Pi** as you said. But with A RTU or STAGE. in my and every persons case ive spoken to in E,London and further afield, The decision is made by the DOM or in Mail Center, shift or even higher, Office Manager. My Stages were infact handled not by any of the aformentioned BUT a person with no prior knowledge of my case or reasons for being off sick???? But lead buy my OFFICE MANAGER, Aledged... (WITH STRESS THROUGH WORK RELATED BULLYING BY??? YES A ACTING MANAGER) Then when i argue this point , that under the (WAY FORWARD) A line mngr Should issue my stages and NOT a person in a made up job in the offices/LA/job for nothing... The union argued this point and the person was taken out of issuing stages, BUT RM wouldnt look in to my case and revoke my stages.... Very unfair i think!!! They refuse to admit wrong doing but i have been treated outside of the IR framework.. It went to a stage3 disagreement with union and Area Managers level..BUT the CWU HQ didnt want to know in the end as it was because hard to prove ive been discriminated against. As im WHITE, MALE, STRAIGHT,NOT DISABLED, and now as law states Im only 35 so cant be seen as age'st......... What a load of SH&T!!! SO when do i get my rights??? what is the point of being in a UNION when NOT EQUAL!!! //Right Ive ranted enough again.. so i will shut it!!! LOL! But it seems a shame Fozzie that u seem a good manager with morals and a understanding of the IR/ RULES.. Shame you wernt my manager when alll this kicked off!! OUT.....................................................................................................................................................


OH YEH!! DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN........................................................................................................
L TOMMO.... ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM........

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POSTMAN
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Post by POSTMAN »

Second thing is for the clever ones to read it and work out that you can take a certain amount of time off in any given period without triggering stage warnings. I won't give you any more info on this one!!!
:whistle
There's this bloke in my old office,he played it big time,he knew right down to the day when he could go sick.
Dangerous s**t if you ask me.
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
F0zziebear
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Posts: 637
Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 23:45

I nearly came to work in your area

Post by F0zziebear »

Without giving away who I am, I was offered a job in your area. Think I might mentioned this before. I am currently working for a former Area Manager for North & East London. He felt like he had been shafted by his bosses and not given enough autonomy to run the area properly.

I'm not sure postie's ever quite understand how it works from a management perspective. My view of Ops management is generally union reps in suits. I say this and give the analogy of the Police Force. Most frontline coppers could quite easily be low-level thugs as well. You end up with union reps vs union reps.

Senior mgmt is these days mainly made up of commercially minded people from outside the business, though the Scottish mafia still seem to run the company.

Sometimes there is that autonomy and a manager / DOM /AGM is able to really do a good job, though this seems to happen more often in the regions and not London.

I hear through contacts that they are changing the senior management structure and gone for a pipelne approach rather than buildings. What I mean is that you have the head of Collections, Processing, Delivery (going back to 2003 approach I think uner Mick Linsell just before he got booted). I think I know the head of Processing at East London, but need to check my facts.

Good luck and as you said don't let the bast*rds grind you down
Carnoustie
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Post by Carnoustie »

Thanks everybody for all the feedback. I don't know if it's a good thing or not to find out that it's not just where I work that rules are applied selectively. There are definitely some people in my office who get away with bullshit reasons for being off, the kind of reasons that if you or I offered them as explanations for an absence would result in either pay being stopped or being hit some kind of conduct code warning. Or both. I ain't going to bother taking a risk now just to do some decorating, not when the new annual leave year starts in a few weeks time anyway. With my luck, some flecks of paint would still be in my hair at my return-to-work meeting, while I told whoever about my 'illness' :d'oh!

Fozziebear and Postman: I smiled when you said about people being able to work out how much time off they could have off without ever getting a stage warning. Believe this or not, but I swear it's true. We had a postie who transferred to us from another office (I won't name it cos I don't want to imply that everyone who works there has a similar attitude) not long after I started, who told me he kept a diary of his absences, and knew exactly, to the day, when it was 'safe' to have another sickie :roll: What he used to do (he claimed) was have 4 DAYS sick in January (for example), another 4 days in May, and 4 days in September. The next year, he'd have 4 days off in February, June and October, and so on. Do you see a pattern ? In reality, it meant that in any 12-month period, counted from whatever time you choose, he only ever had 3 absences totalling 12 days, never enough to trigger even a Stage 1. One year he did come unstuck and got the flu, so he was buggered by a 4th absence, but he just kept a clean sheet for 12 months and went back on the same routine !! But here's the real piss-taking bit: We used to have pretty much open docket on weekend overtime until we got the office fully staffed, and he'd work Saturday and Sunday on docket, phone in sick on Monday, then return to work on Friday and put down for weekend docket again :so there He took EVR eventually but there's a few in our office who have copied the 'sickie sandwich' scam for weekend docket when they've had a long period with no sick :no no

The thing is, if an absence comes under the heading of O/A, does the person still get paid ? The bloke who's been off at my place has been on other shifts before and has supposedly had past absences booked as O/A and is well known as one of the p!ss-takers that every office seems to have. You have to assume that he does get paid or he'd use his sick 'entitlement' wouldn't he ? If he does, what's the point in any of us buying extra annual leave, only to find you get knocked back when you try to use it anyway ? My manager is usually pretty good at giving Comp days at short notice, but there's some who just take the day off, give some wild story on their return, and get the day's leave granted after it's been taken - IF THEIR FACE FITS :mad
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Sikies, A way of life..

Post by L Tommo »

HERTSHog, May i just comment about O/A. When anybody uses this way of having a day off it SHOULD be for a Special reason, We all know this gets abused but the person shouldnt get paid UNLESS asking and recieving SPL/A =Urgent domestic, Hospital Appointments, Family distress, ... The term O/A. is just for the 198.. Used in bookroom to log dutys and to show cover and Holidays, And hrs in office. O/T. Included. The "Sickie sandwich" As you put it is unfair but has broken no rules of O/T. or framework. As you explained it?? Open docket on weekends is something that many dont have.. But posties need.. As we all know the wage isnt enough!!! Be very careful with relying on O/T. to live as we cant in these days of CUTBACKS and HRS in every D/O. And M.C. We have a state of undercutting the job and a free for all starting with O.T. I saw it in my D/O. 7 years ago BEFORE such cuts, Now it will only be worse with walk sorting MECH coming in. This means No more O.T. @ weekends loss of duties and cut throat scams like your ex workers (sickie sandwich) We have got to stop in my opinion A.G'S duties and make all full time OPG's CWU dont care enough about full time workers, Just bringing in ££££ to there coffers from as many as poss.. :mad This is were we are losing the fight for a fair days pay for a fair days work... I hold no offence to A.G'S but they mostly have other jobs as OPG.s cant!! FULL TIME RITES!!!! :Very Happy

OUT.

DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRING YOU DOWN....
L TOMMO.... ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM........

EAST LONDON MAIL CENTER-ISHHHH
Carnoustie
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Re: Sikies, A way of life..

Post by Carnoustie »

L Tommo wrote:Open docket on weekends is something that many dont have.. But posties need.. As we all know the wage isnt enough!!! Be very careful with relying on O/T. to live as we cant in these days of CUTBACKS and HRS in every D/O. And M.C..
I take your comments on board, L Thommo. It's sound advice not to rely on overtime. I've always tried to stick to that golden rule myself. It's just frustrating when you need a bit of docket to find you can't get some and yet someone who hasn't been at work for 4 of the previous 5 days gets on ahead of you :Confused But, as you said, the "sickie sandwich" doesn't break any overtime rules.

Thanks for clearing up what exactly O/A covers, though. If our particular p!ss-taker didn't get paid for two days O/A, then he'll need the weekend docket to get back some of the money he was stopped :dance

Some of our lot are having doubts about staying in the CWU. Heard today that a young guy in our office was fast-tracked through Stages 1 and 2 and lost his job when he had his RTU this week. It does look like there's a policy of getting rid of people at the first opportunity now, though, when in the past they tended to give you the benefit of the doubt if it was a first Stage 3. This guy did have a lot of time off in a relatively short employment with Royal Mail, but he's got 2 small kids and now no money coming in. And our unit rep has had a good record of getting people a reprieve. So I fear the worst for people facing a Stage 3 in offices whose rep isn't maybe as clued-up as our one :pray

DON'T LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN !!
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Post by POSTMAN »

The problem with RM is they're not very flexible when it comes to having days off.
I mean it's ridiculous that because the holiday slots are booked that its a 100% no no,regardless of what it's for,it's like you're not allowed to have a life.
So most people don't bother asking,take a sickie,1 day or 1 week is still 1 occasion,so you might as well have a week.
With the week booked up the duty more often then not goes on docket and the budget goes up.
All for 1 f***ing day.
Also with the special leave bits changed who wants to take a chance on loseing a days pay,in fact it's not any chance as you'll deffo lose it.

This has backfired on them,they obviously know it goes on so insted of a happy medium and perhaps a bit of common sence(did i really say common sence in regards to RM) their stance is now to hit us with the sick stages regardless of what was wrong,add that there's no appeal they've got you by the bollocks.

AOD's don't seem to count anymore,you'd have to get shot at nowadays to have it discounted on your record.

One bloke from the other office we share our building with has been sacked as well it's his last day on Sat,don't know much about the details,but it was his 1st RTU,i know blokes who paper their toilets with their RTU's,i understand they've got to clamp down,but don't take the piss RM,and don't punish the genuine.


DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN!!!!
I Wrote-During Covid-Which is still relevant now
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox, so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
L Tommo
Posts: 3165
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Sacked Bloke...

Post by L Tommo »

In my time with RM i would advise anyone under a Stg 1 2 or RTU to ask NO demand a meet with ATOS formally EHS.. They will listen to any problems you have and relay them back to RM if you shall wish them to see your problem?? The discloser that RM send you for them to see your G.P/ ATOS notes is a con in my book but dont fall in to there trap,,, If you dont let them know any problems you have due to sickness or domestic, when it comes to a RTU RM then say, "u didnt speak to us thru ATOS/ G.P . SO they go on the evidence that they have.. Namely sack you straight off.. Your bloke who you mentioned ,, may of not known the rules, right way to go about this, so ask your REP and if not happy still ask your Area REP and so on.. The welfare is there for US,, the workers.. Use them.. They might just keep you ur job even if you dont get much else out of it???

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DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN!!!
L TOMMO.... ILLEGITIMIS NON CARBORUNDUM........

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dinho1
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Post by dinho1 »

first time post!!

i was off with a bad back for 5 1/2 months last year and in that time i was given a stage 3 interview (while syill holding a doctors note!) i returned to work on rehab in nov. i still havent had my st 3 warning and it is driving me insane. my manager says its being sorted etc , but all im thinking is do i have a job? is there a time limit for issuing stages ie it has been almost 4 months since i have been back and over 6 monthst since my first st 3 interview. i have a family etc and i dont want to lose my job but im not getting the feedback i want. some people are sayin "its ya first st 3 you will be ok " and some r sayin " there saking everyone on st 3 now " im shittin myselves here !! its like a form of torture. PLEASE EASE MY MIND AND KEEP ME SANE! :sad: :pray :pray