the end of seniority

slinder123 · Post by **slinder123** » 16 Mar 2016, 20:04

tell me how if all walks are the same outdoor time that a senior man cant get to pick any rounds in the repick and a part timer get the pick before them and laugh and sneer that seniority is not worth nothing disgusting

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 16 Mar 2016, 21:26

It's not rocket science.
You have X number of duties.
You have Y amount of indoor work.
You need Z amount of full time staff to do it.

Part time staff are mostly less senior, If you picked the duties purely on seniority the would all be filled by full time staff and you wouldn't have enough indoor work for them to do. Seniority hasn't ended, it's evolved into full time seniority and part time seniority.

Post by **Judgee** » 16 Mar 2016, 21:35

Full time duties are supposed to be outdoor and indoor duty time. Part time just outdoor duty time. All walks being equal like slinder says. So why can seniority not still apply? Or is it because this new porters and sorters way of working that no one voted for is getting in the way?

Remind me again why we didn't get a say in that?

slinder123 · Post by **slinder123** » 16 Mar 2016, 21:40

fishtank wrote:It's not rocket science.
You have X number of duties.
You have Y amount of indoor work.
You need Z amount of full time staff to do it.

Part time staff are mostly less senior, If you picked the duties purely on seniority the would all be filled by full time staff and you wouldn't have enough indoor work for them to do. Seniority hasn't ended, it's evolved into full time seniority and part time seniority.

if x is on a full time duty and in a repick he wants duty y which is down as part time why cant he have duty y and take his portering or ips from his x duty if all outdoor work is classed as the same

Post by **IloveMYredTROLLEY!** » 17 Mar 2016, 05:58

slinder123 wrote:
fishtank wrote:It's not rocket science.
You have X number of duties.
You have Y amount of indoor work.
You need Z amount of full time staff to do it.

Part time staff are mostly less senior, If you picked the duties purely on seniority the would all be filled by full time staff and you wouldn't have enough indoor work for them to do. Seniority hasn't ended, it's evolved into full time seniority and part time seniority.
if x is on a full time duty and in a repick he wants duty y which is down as part time why cant he have duty y and take his portering or ips from his x duty if all outdoor work is classed as the same

Because in theory, the frame sizes of duties x and y should be taking account of the amount of allocated indoor work given to them by the "planners."

In practice, the total indoor and outdoor workload allocated often makes us wonder what the "planners" were smoking during work hours.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Mar 2016, 07:11

It's nothing to do with duty sizes, if all your duties are picked by full-time staff you have a full-time bum on every seat and no indoor workload to justify that. A big part of our indoor workload now is prepping part- time duties, it's what keeps full-time staff in a full-time job.

deltaforce · Post by **deltaforce** » 17 Mar 2016, 09:28

fishtank wrote:It's nothing to do with duty sizes, if all your duties are picked by full-time staff you have a full-time bum on every seat and no indoor workload to justify that. A big part of our indoor workload now is prepping part- time duties, it's what keeps full-time staff in a full-time job.

That would be understandable if the workload the planner churned out was realistic. Some of us struggle just to prep our own walks, let alone some one else's. More often than not there is a manager prep a pt walk and so covering up a prob.

slinder123 · Post by **slinder123** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:07

deltaforce wrote:
fishtank wrote:It's nothing to do with duty sizes, if all your duties are picked by full-time staff you have a full-time bum on every seat and no indoor workload to justify that. A big part of our indoor workload now is prepping part- time duties, it's what keeps full-time staff in a full-time job.
That would be understandable if the workload the planner churned out was realistic. Some of us struggle just to prep our own walks, let alone some one else's. More often than not there is a manager prep a pt walk and so covering up a prob.

well said my man excellent but it will fall on deaf ears as usual

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:32

Whether the shite they churn out is realistic or not isn't an argument for or against a purely seniority based resign. I think it's what they call a straw man argument.

claretandblue · Post by **claretandblue** » 17 Mar 2016, 15:49

Should always be done on seniority, ours was, doesn't matter which duty you choose, if a full timer picks it then there is indoor work attached, if a part timer picks it then there isn't. Its not complicated really.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Mar 2016, 16:17

claretandblue wrote:Should always be done on seniority, ours was, doesn't matter which duty you choose, if a full timer picks it then there is indoor work attached, if a part timer picks it then there isn't. Its not complicated really.

So if all the duties get picked by full-time staff then all the duties have indoor work attached?

Post by **Judgee** » 17 Mar 2016, 17:51

fishtank wrote:
claretandblue wrote:Should always be done on seniority, ours was, doesn't matter which duty you choose, if a full timer picks it then there is indoor work attached, if a part timer picks it then there isn't. Its not complicated really.
So if all the duties get picked by full-time staff then all the duties have indoor work attached?

They won't all get picked by full time staff as apparently the CWU agreed 75/25 split so there will be more walks than full timers will there not?

claretandblue · Post by **claretandblue** » 17 Mar 2016, 18:09

fishtank wrote:
claretandblue wrote:Should always be done on seniority, ours was, doesn't matter which duty you choose, if a full timer picks it then there is indoor work attached, if a part timer picks it then there isn't. Its not complicated really.
So if all the duties get picked by full-time staff then all the duties have indoor work attached?

There are enough duties for everybody say 100 duties, picked on seniority, 75 full time and 25 part time top man picks which duty they want and so on. When the planners do duty builder they know how many staff there is so it throws out the correct number of duties for everybody. Infact part timers and full timers could switch between full time hours and part time hours (which several did).

wannabeek · Post by **wannabeek** » 17 Mar 2016, 18:19

As a full-time reserve there are obviously occasions when I get put on a duty which is part time. I've never known it to be an issue - I just do IPS or whatever needs doing until the start time of the duty I'm on, then just do that duty's jobs.

It should probably be simple using that system to allow anyone to pick any duty?

chrisj · Post by **chrisj** » 17 Mar 2016, 19:10

One of the problems with the old ways of just choosing some FT at random to prep a part time walk was that the job was not being done properly... And managers were not forcing the full time staff to fully prep or adequately prep the walks they were given. Most part timers on 24 hours, lets say, 5 years ago and beyond will tell you that when they come in the preps sometimes have not been done or have not being done to even 50% So they spend their time prepping when the FT staff are bagging up and sometimes have to argue with managers to be paid OT or argue about finishing on their time.
Such a situation was even worse for those on bikes because the bags drivers leave without their bags and they end up waiting for bags - it was unfair and badly managed.

What you have now is a pairing (shared van) of some walks where the FT partner always preps for the PT partner - in that way, the job has to be done one way or the other by the FT (or PT coming early); otherwise they cannot both leave the office. Furthermore, the management of the situation is now so much easier because only a few walks are allocated random FT sorters (for PT duties). In our office, the same few gets to double-prep and the same few are always on IPS/Packets but the managers does and can move people from IPS/Packets to double-prep for a part time duty.

Guess what, some of those very senior people that are always on IPS/Packets do not do the duty properly - because as soon as IPS finishes, they stop double prepping even when IPS is about 30 minutes on Tuesday; so they go back to the old bad ways and the managers again are powerless or they end up finishing he prep (or they start the mech). Some of them also spend more time doing their own prep when they are supposed to be double-prepping - so you can see why most offices have adopted the FT/PT combo and went down the FT/PT seniority streams.