NO OVERTIME BECAUSE PEOPLE DOING 2 WALKS

[mlw]

Have asked dom for ot to work days off if needed ,last year i worked about 12 of them,so far this year he says they are ok despite being short staffed!BUT LAST WEEK AND SO FAR THIS WEEK we have 2 guys doing 2 walks each is this right? he is paying them extra yet he does not want me to work days off to cover them surely this seems unfair as we are clearly short staffed , is he allowed to pay people to double prep and deliver when others want ot? also people are receiving mail on these walks up to 6 oclock,! surely this is not good customer service and doing 2 walks u start to get tired and make mistakes

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

your complaining about the wrong thing, you should be complaining to him about the fair distribution of overtime, not how others are doing the OT they have been given, insist that an aggregate system is set up so everyone gets a fair share of overtime if they want it, that way it doesnt matter if you are working your day off or if someone is doing double in one day, you both will have the oppertunity to do it the way you want

[chrisj]

Quality of Service (and H&S) issues with managers allowing one postie to cover 2 walks on the same day... Why do that when someone can come in on a day off to work normal hours?

Allocation of OT is a contentious issue and one that is not as straightforward as simply asking manager to be fair...

Mlw's office does not appear to be a united one so the people gaining out of these unfair arrangements are not going to be supportive. I also remember that he said, he has a discriminating local rep - tough gig!

I dont know what the answer is but we also have a system that is not clear or sometimes fair in my office... Managers just ask the usual, the same people get the easy OT (IPS work and coming in early etc), the same on easy walks practically work all their days off.

The other OT is only allocated to other when they are desperate and/or doing an additional half a walk or working saturday off...

[arthur was right]

Working for ROYAL MAIL.................you couldn't make it up!!!!

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Allocation of OT is a contentious issue and one that is not as straightforward as simply asking manager to be fair...

There is a large amount of offices running the aggregate system that way no one gets a lions share of the over time and its distributed fairly, its just a matter to ask the manager to implement it, it was part of the way forward agreement

Mlw's office does not appear to be a united one so the people gaining out of these unfair arrangements are not going to be supportive. I also remember that he said, he has a discriminating local rep - tough gig!

Simple go above him thats what the area reps for or go to the branch if you dont get help there

[chrisj]

The reason why I said it was not that simple is that in some smaller offices only a few people offer to do OT regularly and the manager's first priority is to cover the duties not worry about niceties.

So, I do understand from the manager's point of view, sometimes. I will not expect the manager to go begging the same people that refuse time and time again. However, there are some sort of OT that is already known and is reasonably popular because they are easy - those could be allocated fairly.

The other issue is that a lot of posties have stopped doing OT because of the later start and pair working... On top of that managers are not even willing to pay an acceptable rate.

e.g, pre-revision: doing an additional half a walk (often ad hoc) used to be paid 3 hours. After revision, with long delivery span the rate has actually gone down because we have employed a few part-time contract staff that are ready to do the OT for less: So these folks get almost all the ad hoc OTs and the rest...

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

The reason why I said it was not that simple is that in some smaller offices only a few people offer to do OT regularly and the manager's first priority is to cover the duties not worry about niceties.

So, I do understand from the manager's point of view, sometimes. I will not expect the manager to go begging the same people that refuse time and time again. However, there are some sort of OT that is already known and is reasonably popular because they are easy - those could be allocated fairly.

The other issue is that a lot of posties have stopped doing OT because of the later start and pair working... On top of that managers are not even willing to pay an acceptable rate.

e.g, pre-revision: doing an additional half a walk (often ad hoc) used to be paid 3 hours. After revision, with long delivery span the rate has actually gone down because we have employed a few part-time contract staff that are ready to do the OT for less: So these folks get almost all the ad hoc OTs.

It is that simple, as when he implements the aggregate system only people who have put their name forward to do over time will be asked, so no need to go begging around unless everyone who wants to be on the list and as such wants OT has said no.

As for niceties, they dont apply but national agreements do, so if he has to go round and ask everyone on the aggregate list then thats the agreement that royal mail has made with us the work force for him to implement as per the agreement not as how its easier for him

[ted_e_bear]

How can someone do 2 walks, mine generally takes 4.5 hours after which I'm fu**ed, certainly I couldn't manage another one in the same day.

[chrisj]

I hear you but things are not as simple as you tend to make them sound.

When you advice a postie to go to the Area rep and branch - that is all well and good but this is a union of members and in mlw's case he is almost fighting a losing battle in his office - there is not solidary and people are selfish.

No branch or area rep will impose things on a local rep and his supportive members just to satisfy a few posties. Unless it is an issue of bullying, racism, sexism and those sort.

An aggregate system will not work in my smallish office and the manager has to cover - simple! The manager often goes around trying to find takers for ad hoc OT - sometimes not been successful that they have to go and do some themselves. Even working days off needs persuasion as people are too knackered or might not be arsed on certain days.

Putting names down will mean nothing as this is not a regular thing and people can still refuse anyway. Do they get sanctioned?

Just tell me you work in a large office and then I can rest my case...

* Btw, my office example is quite different from mlw.

[chrisj]

As for niceties, they dont apply but national agreements do, so if he has to go round and ask everyone on the aggregate list then thats the agreement that royal mail has made with us the work force for him to implement as per the agreement not as how its easier for him

Please dont tell me you actually believe in this national agreement cr*p... If national agreement is applied nationally we would not as many problems as you read here. Your office might work perfectly but there are many office where national agreement is not adhered to, ignored or not even understood.

On top of the above, some agreements are allowed to be localised - Overtime allocation could well be one of them.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

I hear you but things are not as simple as you tend to make them sound.

When you advice a postie to go to the Area rep and branch - that is all well and good but this is a union of members and in mlw's case he is almost fighting a losing battle in his office - there is not solidary and people are selfish.

No branch or area rep will impose things on a local rep and his supportive members just to satisfy a few posties. Unless it is an issue of bullying, racism, sexism and those sort.

An aggregate system will now work in my office and the manager has to cover - simple! The manager often goes around trying to find takers for ad hoc OT - sometimes not been successful that they have to go and do some themselves. Even working days off needs persuasion as people are too knackered or might not be arsed on certain days.

Putting names down will mean nothing as this is not a regular thing and people can still refuse anyway. Do they get sanctioned?

Just tell me you work in a large office and then I can rest my case...

* Btw, my office example is quite different from mlw.

a branch or area rep will impose a national agreement if its been complained to him in writing, in this sort of case they dont even need to explain their reasoning its a national agreement simple as that

Actually my office has 23 posties, 2 in locker and 1 dom, yes dom does have issues covering OT sometimes, but he knows he has to ask the 7 who have their name on the list first, and in the correct order, then if no takers he can go round the office, no one has needed to be sanctioned in our office but rule is if you refuse 3 times in a month your off the list till next month, doesnt mean you dont get asked just means you are lower on the list till next month, and you can avoid it by taking your name off the list for weeks you dont want to work OT, its not a case of staying on the list when you on it you can ask to get put on it or taken of it from month to month

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Please dont tell me you actually believe in this national agreement cr*p... If national agreement is applied nationally we would not as many problems as you read here. Your office might work perfectly but there are many office where national agreement is not adhered to, ignored or not even understood.

Half the problems we have here is because local reps either dont have the full knowledge about these national agreements or the confidence to follow them or confidence to put in a disagreement, if they did half of the complaints on here which are already covered by agreements would be resolved a lot easier

On top of the above, some agreements are allowed to be localised - Overtime allocation could well be one of them.

its not its specifically stated in the way forward agreement that an aggregate system should be used

[chrisj]

zx135,

Apart from the aggregate system which I do not fully understand how it might work in reality or what it entails... Do you have a sort of standard rate for doing 'delivery' overtime in your office? IPS overtime is clear and working a day off is straightforward as well...

Prior to our Revision and Shared vans, the average hours was 6 hours per day and that usually applies when people turn up to do their day off as long as they do not do IPS. Extra delivery OT was also roughly 6 hours - so if 2 people do a walk equally they get 3 hours each and if 3 people then they share the 6 hours etc...

However, one could still negotiate if the OT is on a nightmare round, or it is a wed or thurs or if it entails lots more travel time... E.g, doing OT in an adjoining walk and being able to take the OT with you is much easier than coming back to the office and then traveling in an opposite direction for another 25 minutes or so... And managers have been so desperate in the past and paid some of their pets way beyond the average...

So do you agree to some sort of average rate for delivery OT in your office?

[MDWootton]

How can someone do 2 walks, mine generally takes 4.5 hours after which I'm fu**ed, certainly I couldn't manage another one in the same day.

I must be superman then, I do two a day nearly every day!
But seriously, I guess it must be area dependant or something, as I go to one of four other Delivery Offices on a regular basis after my duty has finished.
But if there wan't such a shortage of staff at some of these places it might be less, but then again most of the time i'm covering people off sick.......Amazing how many people go sick on Royal Mail.