Wonder if anyone can give some advice on this.
In our office we have 3 indoor staff (former phg duties) - of which i am a part of.
A few years we negotiated with our DOM at the time to allow the indoor staff to have 1 long weekend in every 4 weeks as our days off - ie, we only have Monday, Tues, Wedsand Saturdays off on rotation each week.
The reasoning behind this was that we felt it unfair to be working all our hours, when delivery staff were doing job and knock and making loads of time.
Now i realise the chances of making any time these days is rare. We are virtually finished with our office revision.
We asked our current DOM if we would be keeping our agreed days off rota and were told that it wasn't possible and we would have to change to the office agreed 1 weekend in 6. The office actually had a vote prior to the revision, where it was voted that we would follow a 1 weekend off in 6 rotation.
However it was never mentioned that this would include indoor staff.
When we asked our DOM if it would be changing, he was surprised to hear that such an agreement was even in place and claimed he knew nothing of it.
We contacted our Area Rep ( our local Rep is still very new to the position) to seek advice and were told that this could be regarded as a detremental change to our working terms and as such this was in breach of the Way Forward Agreement. Therefore the management were trying to enforce this by diktat and they cannnot do it.
We had another discussion with our DOM today and were told if we weren't willing to change to 1 in 6, we would have to lodge a local disagreement and things would go from there. He also said that as the office had voted on the shift we would follow, then we would have to comply with the majority decision. - strange as he claimed he knew nothing of our indoor rotation - remember.
We will again be contacting our Area Rep for clarification on all this, but would be grateful if anyone could offer some clarification or advice on this matter.
Incidently, we have had our indoor revision, but the indoor duties haven't been revised as yet and are currently going through the duty schedule builder.
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Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
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Mezza
- Posts: 405
- Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 21:56
- Location: West London
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dvbuk55
- EX ROYAL MAIL
- Posts: 16650
- Joined: 02 Jun 2007, 19:17
- Gender: Male
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
Well we are supposed to work all our hours and the vote on the revision included everyone I presume so which way did you vote?
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blisterfeet
- Posts: 103
- Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 18:48
- Gender: Male
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
Who's to say you'll get the indoor duty when the office change over? If you are able to keep your 1 weekend off every 4 then I can imagine a lot of staff trying to get that job. Remember there is no such thing as phg anymore so don't think you'll be able to say its a phg duty. :-(
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fishtank
- Posts: 19732
- Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
- Gender: Male
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
It will come down to the terms of the revision.
Were the locker duties involved?
Were they changed in any way?
Are they included in the resign?
If they haven't been changed as part of the revision then they stay as they are along with the attendance patterns that go with them.
Any changes outside the revision process would be executive action and should be met with a disagreement and the IR Framework.
If they were included as part of the revision process then the proposed changes to attendance patterns should have been part of that process,clearly communicated to the members and subject to the overall vote at the end of phase 4.
If they were then you'll have to swallow it.
Were the locker duties involved?
Were they changed in any way?
Are they included in the resign?
If they haven't been changed as part of the revision then they stay as they are along with the attendance patterns that go with them.
Any changes outside the revision process would be executive action and should be met with a disagreement and the IR Framework.
If they were included as part of the revision process then the proposed changes to attendance patterns should have been part of that process,clearly communicated to the members and subject to the overall vote at the end of phase 4.
If they were then you'll have to swallow it.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
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Mezza
- Posts: 405
- Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 21:56
- Location: West London
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
Thank's for the replies.
Firstly - we do work our hours - that's the point and the reason behind the agreed 1 in 4 in the first place.
There is no queue for our indoor duties - nobody wants to be stuck indoors till the end of their duty if there's even the slightest chance of getting away early. Or with management looking over your shoulder every minute.
The 1 in 6 rotate now means 5 duties are affected and the need for a reserve to cover these.
The indoor duties have not been a part of the revision as yet - that is to say there have been no changes to our duties with the exception of our actual hours of attendance - we had our start and finish times moved back to fit in with the rest of the office.
However, the duties may change slightly as our duties are put through the duty builder - which is currently being done.
So the correct course of action is to lodge a local disagreement, which we are in the process of doing.
Firstly - we do work our hours - that's the point and the reason behind the agreed 1 in 4 in the first place.
There is no queue for our indoor duties - nobody wants to be stuck indoors till the end of their duty if there's even the slightest chance of getting away early. Or with management looking over your shoulder every minute.
The 1 in 6 rotate now means 5 duties are affected and the need for a reserve to cover these.
The indoor duties have not been a part of the revision as yet - that is to say there have been no changes to our duties with the exception of our actual hours of attendance - we had our start and finish times moved back to fit in with the rest of the office.
However, the duties may change slightly as our duties are put through the duty builder - which is currently being done.
So the correct course of action is to lodge a local disagreement, which we are in the process of doing.
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north london driver
- Posts: 560
- Joined: 18 Aug 2010, 21:51
- Gender: Male
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
well that will be a total waste of time going to disagreement at the moment.
wait till after the vote if we still have a union go straight to your area rep but the way
things are going on in london i dont think you will get far.
wait till after the vote if we still have a union go straight to your area rep but the way
things are going on in london i dont think you will get far.
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Glenno
- Posts: 1491
- Joined: 05 Jun 2007, 13:12
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
The Way Forward states FYI
SELECTION BY SKILLS
15.1 All frontline jobs performed by the new multi-skilled single operational grade will have the same core capabilities. However, it is recognised that there are come jobs that require more specialised skills. An objective selection process will be introduced for these jobs.
15.2 These jobs will be filled by the most senior person who has achieved the right standard for the job during the selection process. Sick attendance and conduct record will only be taken into account where these are relevant to the work. Where training is required by the most senior suitable person, this will be given prior to appointment.
15.3 Resourcing procedures will be based on the Resourcing Area. This will in all cases be the Royal Mail administrative area (i.e. the areas managed by Area Managers, subject to review in the light of any organisational changes). Jobs filled internally will be available to employees currently working in any office within the Area concerned.
15.4 Vacancies for specialist jobs will be advertised throughout the resourcing area. Applications should be made in writing to the Resourcing Unit.
15.5 Employees who wish to be considered for specialist jobs in general should register their interest via the Resourcing Unit or include it in their own Development Plan, a copy of which will be held by the Resourcing Unit (see section 19). This information will be used for training planning. Where a vacancy arises, equal consideration will be given to individuals who have registered their interest through Development Plan or through the Resourcing Unit in writing at the time when the vacancy is advertised. The objective is to allow and maintain openness and fairness in relation to resourcing specialist posts.
15.6 The specific jobs that require specialist skills and which will be subject to selection are:
Resourcing Unit (Bookroom);
DOM Support;
Traffic Office;
Enquiry/Callers’ Office;
Major Customer Collection drivers
(to be jointly defined at National level):
Benefits Agency/Customer Mailroom;
Travelling Post Office;
Leadership roles (formerly PHG ‘A’);
Heavy Goods Vehicle Driving (HGV);
Postbus (PSV);
VCS/MAA;
IMP/MTT;
Advanced TPM;
Non-school training
15.7 All specialist jobs will have consistent job descriptions, which will identify the specialist capabilities and which will be standard throughout Royal Mail.
15.8 Employees who are regarded as suitable should be dedicated to these duties for a minimum of 12 months. If after 12 months the employee wishes to change jobs, they must give adequate notice to enable a suitable trained replacement to be found before release can be allowed. The replacement must be available to take up post no later than six months after notice has been given.
The process for resourcing specialist posts will be one of four options, in the following order, unless agreed locally to change this order:
• Deployment of existing surplus employees with the appropriate skills;
• Internal advertisement of the job within the resourcing area itself;
• The acceptance of an existing employee with the appropriate skills from another resourcing area who has previously had his/her name placed on the transfer list for that resourcing area;
• External advertisement.
15.9 This decision will be taken locally, but normally jobs will be filled by internal advertisement, by a surplus employee or a transferee before there is recourse to external advertisement.
15.10 Where a post is advertised internally then it will be advertised to all employees in that resourcing area, full- and part-time. Candidates will undergo an objective selection procedure, designed to assess individual competences against the skills required for a particular job. Where more than one candidate possesses the required capabilities, selection will then be on the basis of seniority.
15.11 The resultant vacancy, be it full- or part-time, will be filled as specified in section 14, unless it too is for a specialist post, in which case the provisions of this section will apply.
RESOURCING JOBS DURING MAJOR CHANGE
16.1 The new standard resourcing procedures covered in the previous two sections of this agreement benefit employees by giving them regular opportunities to apply for a change of job, both within their unit and their resourcing area. These incorporate and standardise the current practises of rolling re-signs, based on seniority.
This section deals with the only other circumstance where people change jobs. This is where jobs alter significantly as a result of the introduction of major change. The overriding aims for managing all such exercises must be to minimise customer disruption and avoid unnecessary displacement of employees in a way that conforms to equal opportunities legislation. This will be ensured by timely planning and full CWU involvement at all stages of the exercise.
16.2 Major change is defined as:
• The relocation or merger of units;
• A significant process alteration arising from automated working or reshaping of the pipeline;
• Delivery revisions, which involve significant re-plotting of walks or significant restructuring of attendance patterns (e.g. full-time/part-time mix, five-day weeks, ‘longs and shorts’ or ‘night plus a first delivery’, where they are agreed).
16.3 Major change is defined as:
• Revisions of staffing arrangements, using the procedures agreed in the Performance Bonus Scheme, to implement the Performance Bonus Scheme, Shorter Working Week, Meal Relief Harmonisation and Work Time Learning or to improve alignment of staffing to workload in order to make performance improvements, unless they fall into the categories of major change defined in paragraph 2 above.
• Delivery revisions which do not involve significant re-plotting of first delivery walks.
Where such a revision displaces an individual, or where an individual’s earnings are affected, local discussions shall take place in line with the principles contained in Sections 14 and 15, which may vary the order to protect the individuals displaced. Timely planning will reduce the number of people affected in this way by the revision.
16.4 Where there is a major change as defined above, the key principles for dealing with the re-sign are:
• Employees whose jobs remain unaffected by the major change will retain them;
• These employees will have the option of applying for any of the jobs involved in the re-sign resulting from the major change, provided they have completed a minimum of twelve months on their existing duty (see Section 14 and 15). If this creates a resultant vacancy that would be filled using the normal resourcing procedures in Section 14 or 15;
• Employees taking part in the re-sign will be given the opportunity to advise of any personal circumstances, which necessitate a particular duty type or attendance pattern and, where practical, this will be accommodated. Where this happens, there will be prior discussion with the local CWU rep;
• The re-sign and all consequential training must be planned into the revision process;
• Specialist jobs that are reselected against are filled using the procedure in Section 15;
• The re-sign will be run using a national standard procedure based on seniority, and not take more than four weeks to complete. In very large units, agreement to an extension to this deadline must be given by the Head if Performance following local discussion between management and CWU. At the end of the exercise all jobs and reserve posts must have been signed for.
16.5 All major change schemes (as defined above) must be planned so as to have in place an agreement covering selection, placement and training, minimising and then managing surpluses and all other employee issues at least 13 weeks before the Ready for Service (RFS) date, or dates if the project is in phases. (Planning and discussions through Strategic Involvement and the IR Framework should start at least 12 months in advance of any planned major change). This agreement must conform to existing national agreements. In the event of any failure to reach agreement by this date, the points of difference will be referred to Service Delivery Headquarters and CWU Headquarters for resolution.
SELECTION BY SKILLS
15.1 All frontline jobs performed by the new multi-skilled single operational grade will have the same core capabilities. However, it is recognised that there are come jobs that require more specialised skills. An objective selection process will be introduced for these jobs.
15.2 These jobs will be filled by the most senior person who has achieved the right standard for the job during the selection process. Sick attendance and conduct record will only be taken into account where these are relevant to the work. Where training is required by the most senior suitable person, this will be given prior to appointment.
15.3 Resourcing procedures will be based on the Resourcing Area. This will in all cases be the Royal Mail administrative area (i.e. the areas managed by Area Managers, subject to review in the light of any organisational changes). Jobs filled internally will be available to employees currently working in any office within the Area concerned.
15.4 Vacancies for specialist jobs will be advertised throughout the resourcing area. Applications should be made in writing to the Resourcing Unit.
15.5 Employees who wish to be considered for specialist jobs in general should register their interest via the Resourcing Unit or include it in their own Development Plan, a copy of which will be held by the Resourcing Unit (see section 19). This information will be used for training planning. Where a vacancy arises, equal consideration will be given to individuals who have registered their interest through Development Plan or through the Resourcing Unit in writing at the time when the vacancy is advertised. The objective is to allow and maintain openness and fairness in relation to resourcing specialist posts.
15.6 The specific jobs that require specialist skills and which will be subject to selection are:
Resourcing Unit (Bookroom);
DOM Support;
Traffic Office;
Enquiry/Callers’ Office;
Major Customer Collection drivers
(to be jointly defined at National level):
Benefits Agency/Customer Mailroom;
Travelling Post Office;
Leadership roles (formerly PHG ‘A’);
Heavy Goods Vehicle Driving (HGV);
Postbus (PSV);
VCS/MAA;
IMP/MTT;
Advanced TPM;
Non-school training
15.7 All specialist jobs will have consistent job descriptions, which will identify the specialist capabilities and which will be standard throughout Royal Mail.
15.8 Employees who are regarded as suitable should be dedicated to these duties for a minimum of 12 months. If after 12 months the employee wishes to change jobs, they must give adequate notice to enable a suitable trained replacement to be found before release can be allowed. The replacement must be available to take up post no later than six months after notice has been given.
The process for resourcing specialist posts will be one of four options, in the following order, unless agreed locally to change this order:
• Deployment of existing surplus employees with the appropriate skills;
• Internal advertisement of the job within the resourcing area itself;
• The acceptance of an existing employee with the appropriate skills from another resourcing area who has previously had his/her name placed on the transfer list for that resourcing area;
• External advertisement.
15.9 This decision will be taken locally, but normally jobs will be filled by internal advertisement, by a surplus employee or a transferee before there is recourse to external advertisement.
15.10 Where a post is advertised internally then it will be advertised to all employees in that resourcing area, full- and part-time. Candidates will undergo an objective selection procedure, designed to assess individual competences against the skills required for a particular job. Where more than one candidate possesses the required capabilities, selection will then be on the basis of seniority.
15.11 The resultant vacancy, be it full- or part-time, will be filled as specified in section 14, unless it too is for a specialist post, in which case the provisions of this section will apply.
RESOURCING JOBS DURING MAJOR CHANGE
16.1 The new standard resourcing procedures covered in the previous two sections of this agreement benefit employees by giving them regular opportunities to apply for a change of job, both within their unit and their resourcing area. These incorporate and standardise the current practises of rolling re-signs, based on seniority.
This section deals with the only other circumstance where people change jobs. This is where jobs alter significantly as a result of the introduction of major change. The overriding aims for managing all such exercises must be to minimise customer disruption and avoid unnecessary displacement of employees in a way that conforms to equal opportunities legislation. This will be ensured by timely planning and full CWU involvement at all stages of the exercise.
16.2 Major change is defined as:
• The relocation or merger of units;
• A significant process alteration arising from automated working or reshaping of the pipeline;
• Delivery revisions, which involve significant re-plotting of walks or significant restructuring of attendance patterns (e.g. full-time/part-time mix, five-day weeks, ‘longs and shorts’ or ‘night plus a first delivery’, where they are agreed).
16.3 Major change is defined as:
• Revisions of staffing arrangements, using the procedures agreed in the Performance Bonus Scheme, to implement the Performance Bonus Scheme, Shorter Working Week, Meal Relief Harmonisation and Work Time Learning or to improve alignment of staffing to workload in order to make performance improvements, unless they fall into the categories of major change defined in paragraph 2 above.
• Delivery revisions which do not involve significant re-plotting of first delivery walks.
Where such a revision displaces an individual, or where an individual’s earnings are affected, local discussions shall take place in line with the principles contained in Sections 14 and 15, which may vary the order to protect the individuals displaced. Timely planning will reduce the number of people affected in this way by the revision.
16.4 Where there is a major change as defined above, the key principles for dealing with the re-sign are:
• Employees whose jobs remain unaffected by the major change will retain them;
• These employees will have the option of applying for any of the jobs involved in the re-sign resulting from the major change, provided they have completed a minimum of twelve months on their existing duty (see Section 14 and 15). If this creates a resultant vacancy that would be filled using the normal resourcing procedures in Section 14 or 15;
• Employees taking part in the re-sign will be given the opportunity to advise of any personal circumstances, which necessitate a particular duty type or attendance pattern and, where practical, this will be accommodated. Where this happens, there will be prior discussion with the local CWU rep;
• The re-sign and all consequential training must be planned into the revision process;
• Specialist jobs that are reselected against are filled using the procedure in Section 15;
• The re-sign will be run using a national standard procedure based on seniority, and not take more than four weeks to complete. In very large units, agreement to an extension to this deadline must be given by the Head if Performance following local discussion between management and CWU. At the end of the exercise all jobs and reserve posts must have been signed for.
16.5 All major change schemes (as defined above) must be planned so as to have in place an agreement covering selection, placement and training, minimising and then managing surpluses and all other employee issues at least 13 weeks before the Ready for Service (RFS) date, or dates if the project is in phases. (Planning and discussions through Strategic Involvement and the IR Framework should start at least 12 months in advance of any planned major change). This agreement must conform to existing national agreements. In the event of any failure to reach agreement by this date, the points of difference will be referred to Service Delivery Headquarters and CWU Headquarters for resolution.
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Mezza
- Posts: 405
- Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 21:56
- Location: West London
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
Interesting reading the extract from the Way Forward Agreement, but wasn't this superceded by the Business Transformation 2010 and Beyond Agreement?
Could anyone clarify this as i don't want to base our local disagreement on the Way Forward Agreement, only to find the Business Transformation 2010 Agreement is what we should be using?
Could anyone clarify this as i don't want to base our local disagreement on the Way Forward Agreement, only to find the Business Transformation 2010 Agreement is what we should be using?
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clashcityrocker
- Posts: 16674
- Joined: 22 Sep 2009, 13:50
- Gender: Male
- Location: strummerville
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
There is nothing in BT 2010 which supercedes the information in TWF agreement.
TWF still holds the field.
TWF still holds the field.
The societies of consumption and squandering of material resources are incompatible with the idea of economic growth and a clean planet.
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Mezza
- Posts: 405
- Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 21:56
- Location: West London
Re: Breach of Way Forward Agreement?
Called in by DOM with other indoor staff for an update today.
Our Union Rep has still to issue a stage 1 disagreement, so our DOM is proposing to change us to the 1 in 6 rota from Oct 14th.
Having trawled through the Way Forward Agreement and also the 2010 and Beyond agreement, there are sections that mention changing staff to a 1 in 4 rota where possible and also that there will be no changes if they are detremental to existing attendence agreements.
So it would seem to us that our DOM is in direct breach of these agreements if he continues with this.
Add to this the lovely letter from Moyra that we all got yesterday asking us not to strike etc, where she said RM would adhere to existing and previous agreements.
We are getting our Union Rep to use this breach of agreements as reasons for our disagreement, but if anyone could let us know if this seems the right way to proceed or if there may be a better avenue for us, we would appreciate it.
Also we have found out that someone has already been earmarked as our reserve. A former driver who has lost his duty through the revision. According to the agreement of 2010 concerning recruitment of specialised indoor duties, there should be an internal vacancy post, followed by interviews etc - yet none of this has taken place?
Our Union Rep has still to issue a stage 1 disagreement, so our DOM is proposing to change us to the 1 in 6 rota from Oct 14th.
Having trawled through the Way Forward Agreement and also the 2010 and Beyond agreement, there are sections that mention changing staff to a 1 in 4 rota where possible and also that there will be no changes if they are detremental to existing attendence agreements.
So it would seem to us that our DOM is in direct breach of these agreements if he continues with this.
Add to this the lovely letter from Moyra that we all got yesterday asking us not to strike etc, where she said RM would adhere to existing and previous agreements.
We are getting our Union Rep to use this breach of agreements as reasons for our disagreement, but if anyone could let us know if this seems the right way to proceed or if there may be a better avenue for us, we would appreciate it.
Also we have found out that someone has already been earmarked as our reserve. A former driver who has lost his duty through the revision. According to the agreement of 2010 concerning recruitment of specialised indoor duties, there should be an internal vacancy post, followed by interviews etc - yet none of this has taken place?