Breaks

[shrimpster]

Hi All,

Can they make us take breaks only 1hr into our duty times?

Thanks for any advice.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

Hi All,

Can they make us take breaks only 1hr into our duty times?

Thanks for any advice.

yes unfortunately

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

If they do that then I believe it is 5.5 hours later you have another.

sorry no law or agreement that states that either unfortunately, the law only states if working for 6 hours or more your entitled to a 20 minute break somewhere in the middle of your shift and not at the start or end and it does not define what "in the middle" means so an hour in is legal

[fishtank]

The Way Forward which still holds the field with relation to meal relief states that Part-time jobs, and full-time jobs with non-standard attendance patterns, will attract meal breaks for each daily attendance as followed, reflecting a generally pro-rata entitlement to the national weekly standard,it then goes on to list the entitlements and finishes with a flourish....The actual pattern of breaks within these rules will be agreed locally.

I think the key word is agreed.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

The Way Forward which still holds the field with relation to meal relief states that Part-time jobs, and full-time jobs with non-standard attendance patterns, will attract meal breaks for each daily attendance as followed, reflecting a generally pro-rata entitlement to the national weekly standard,it then goes on to list the entitlements and finishes with a flourish....The actual pattern of breaks within these rules will be agreed locally.

I think the key word is agreed.

only problem with that though is if you read that section of the agreement, when it is talking about pattern it is not talking about the scheduling of the breaks just how the break entitlement is broken up

Meal Brakes for non-standard, as part-time and extended attendances

Part-time jobs, and full-time jobs with non-standard attendance patterns, will attract meal breaks for each daily attendance as followed, reflecting a generally pro-rata entitlement to the national weekly standard:

Attendance length.................total breaks...................probable pattern

Less than 2 hours 30 minutes none (a 10 min grace break should be provided if work permits)
2 hours 30 to 3 hours.............10 mins..............................10
3 hours 1 to 3 hours 30...........15 mins..............................15
3 hours 31 to 4 hours 59..........20 mins..............................20
5 hours to 7 hours.................30 mins..............................30
7 hours 1 to 8 hours 59...........40 mins..............................40 or 20 + 20
9 hours to 10 hours 59............50 mins..............................30 + 20
11 hours to 12 hours 59...........60 mins..............................40 + 20 or 30 + 30
13 hours or longer.................70 mins..............................40 + 30

Pending completion of the discussions intended to conform with the requirements of the Working Time Regulations, any exceptional attendances of 15 hours or longer will attract an entitlement of 80 minutes.

The actual pattern of breaks within these rules will be agreed locally.

nowhere in the agreement talks about agreeing scheduling of the break and as you can see that part about pattern is clearly talking about how the time is split and not when its taken

[fishtank]

nowhere in the agreement talks about agreeing scheduling of the break and as you can see that part about pattern is clearly talking about how the time is split and not when its taken

How exactly do you agree the pattern without agreeing when to take them,that would be a strange conversation.
The bottom line is break scheduling is part of the revision process,It always has been,It has to be because you can't plan a duty,plan the indoor workload,determine the outdoor span without having the breaks in place first.
The revision process is an agreed process from start to finish,including a member vote so under what circumstances could you be "made" take your break without prior agreement?

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

nowhere in the agreement talks about agreeing scheduling of the break and as you can see that part about pattern is clearly talking about how the time is split and not when its taken

How exactly do you agree the pattern without agreeing when to take them,that would be a strange conversation.
The bottom line is break scheduling is part of the revision process,It always has been,It has to be because you can't plan a duty,plan the indoor workload,determine the outdoor span without having the breaks in place first.
The revision process is an agreed process from start to finish,including a member vote so under what circumstances could you be "made" take your break without prior agreement?

the member vote is on the shift pattern not on the duty structures unless i'm mistaken, and as shrimpster is going through the revision process at the moment the dom can say where he wants the break(s) within the new structure and if memory serves the rep doesnt actually sign off on the new 318s as part of the process

[billyboy123]

on my duty 9.45 mins i am told 20 mins before i leave the office and 30 mins while out on delivery but u dont benifit from the break outside as sitting in a cramped van for half an hour as you dont feel as if you have had a break cant get hot drink cant chill in a van so pointless having it really should be able to return to the office for a meal break.

[fishtank]

the member vote is on the shift pattern not on the duty structures unless i'm mistaken.

You are mistaken.
The membership vote after phase 4 in the 6 phase revision process on the entire duty structure,start/finish times,meal relief,delivery methods,indoor workload,outdoor workload,attendance patterns,full-time/part-time mix the whole completed revision picture.

Phase 4
Reps should ensure that all the plans for the revision are displayed and there is an opportunity for all members to air any concerns about walks or the revision etc. All reps must ensure that a members meeting must takes place to ensure ratification of the duties and agreement is given by our members for the implementation of the revision.

and as shrimpster is going through the revision process at the moment the dom can say where he wants the break(s) within the new structure

Since ultimately the entire revision is supposed to be an agreed process why would the Delivery Office Manager attempt to impose unagreed break scheduling right in the middle of the process before the members have a chance to vote on it?

If those break times were unacceptable to the members or the rep they wouldn't accept the revision and since every step of the 6 phase process has to be signed off by the rep including the decision to implement the revision and the Post Implementation Review the revision would simply grind to a halt.

I'm aware that in some offices reps have let their members down in the revision process and managers have taken advantage of this but that doesn't mean it's how it's supposed to be.

Scheduling meal relief has always been part of the agreed process as long as I can remember and that's a long time,the only stipulation being they must be in line with the Way Forward and not in breach of any legislation.

Any imposition of break times/patterns by executive action should be dealt with by use of the IR Framework.

So in answer to the OP...NO,management can't make you take your break after 1hr...unless it's part of the agreed revision process,in line with collective agreements and consistent with relevant working time legislation...

[UnhappyGremlin]

I take my break when it is scheduled, which was and is always agreed during the revision process, or if delayed at the earliest opportunity. You cannot be asked to work through it, if you do not want to take it in the van en route, ask your boss for advice. He won't want you to return to the office as it will use up extra time travelling to and from your delivery, he may say you can but in your break time which would render it a pointless excercise. I would say I'll take my full break last thing before leaving, but this may not suit you. Personally, I don't think you can be forced to have a break in your van, there are health & safety issues for a start. In winter, it's cold, you can't get a hot drink/meal etc. It does sound like the managers are having trouble with mail arriving times, and are using the breaks to cover up the waiting time. In my office, the DOM recently tried to say that 20 mins of our break would take place in the van driving out to the first point of delivery, presumably he doesn't believe this counts as working. He was told no.