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D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

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TrueBlueTerrier
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D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Bitchface posted this in a 2010 D2D Thread but I think its important enough to start a new thread in Union Room

bitchface wrote:attended a love in session for managers and union reps at taunton on wednesday..

was told in no uncertain terms that we must prep 1/6th each day or risk conduct code if we leave the live mail(clear frame policy)in frame
i had a good old argument with the rest of the reps and managers..

they have changed yet another thing on the agreement without our(members)permission

the agreement says,it will be left to the duty holder .as long as they are all done by saturday..

they have now changed it to 1/6th or face the code...

this is yet another piece of the agreement we all voted on being ripped up only weeks later..

how is this moral or legal..shouldnt we get another vote..shouldnt the union do what we tell it,not the other way round....

Thoughts
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Lounge Lizard
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by Lounge Lizard »

the agreement says,it will be left to the duty holder .as long as they are all done by saturday..
:Very Happy
- and that's the only way it can reasonably work, allowing the duty holder to deliver more on the quieter early days of the week and less later on, and hopefully being able to agree with whoever's covering the day off an appropraite number for them to do. :Very Happy Anything more detailed and restrictive instructions will just increase the risk of them not being delivered. :sad:
fishtank
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by fishtank »

Lounge Lizard wrote:the agreement says,it will be left to the duty holder .as long as they are all done by saturday..
:Very Happy
- and that's the only way it can reasonably work, allowing the duty holder to deliver more on the quieter early days of the week and less later on, and hopefully being able to agree with whoever's covering the day off an appropraite number for them to do. :Very Happy Anything more detailed and restrictive instructions will just increase the risk of them not being delivered. :sad:
I have to say i actually disagree.
I believe that a more rigid policy is far better in the long run for all concerned.
Remember the whole idea of D2D into workload from our perspective was to provide an increase in measured indoor workload.
How can that be achieved if it is all thrown in on a monday? :crazy: ....and that's exactly what will happen if you allow OPGs free reign over when and how it is done.
What is the major problem with taking 16% or even 20% per day?....i don't get it.
The only reason i can see is that people don't like cold calling....big deal...unless your chasing time why would it matter?
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
Geezer
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by Geezer »

How we manage Door to door in our office

• All deliveries will deliver any D2D items for their walk as part of regular workload.
• The number of items/ contracts will increase over time, in a phased way.
• Arrivals of D2D items must form part of the mandatory weekly resource meetings.
• Pouches must not exceed the weight limit as displayed in your unit.
• D2D mail will be on the frame by the start of duty each Monday. Designated duties to be identified to distribute items arriving each Saturday.
• Prep and deliver 1/6th of the D2D mail each day Including dead drops, starting each Monday with completion each Saturday . (See attached sheet)
• D2D items should be placed last into the prep frame after any walk sequenced or manual mails.
• All D2D should be delivered in line with product specification, by the required date of the contract.
• Items not being delivered that day should be stored neatly in boxes or trays beneath your prep frame.
• Everyone will complete a walk control sheet confirming D2D delivery.
• All surplus items are to be handed back to your line manager at the end of each week. The number returned will be recorded and remedial action will be taken, where required.
• Any issues experienced during the bedding in period (7/06/2010 to 22/06/2010) that cannot be resolved locally are to be raised immediately for resolution between the DSM and Area CWU Representative.
• Each prep fitting is to be split, by the walk holder into 6 equal parts. (Number of delivery points e.g. 660 divided by 6 equals 110 to be delivered daily.
• Starting at the top left of your prep frame and working from left to right count the delivery points, in the case above 110 and place a sticky dot. Continue this process until you reach the end of your frame in the bottom right hand corner.
• From Monday prep and deliver 1/6th of D2D Mail starting from the top left of your frame. Delivery of D2D items are to be completed with the final 1/6th being delivered on Saturday.
• It is extremely important that you all follow this process to ensure your day off cover duty delivers the correct 1/6th depending on your day off.
• Please note, Bank Holiday weeks: 1/5th of delivery points are to be delivered per day.
• If you feel you are unable to complete your delivery by your scheduled completion time, in line with normal requirements overtime is to be agreed with your line manager prior to departure.
• If a delivery is on absence overtime. The overtime volunteer is accountable for delivering the D2D mail due on that day.
• Where a walk is prepped for a bag carrier, by an individual performing a double prep, the D2D is to be prepped for the bag carrier in line with the above requirements of 1/6th per day.


==============================================================================================================================================================================================================

TBT

This is the Local Agreement she is talking about i think.
Now while i can understand how people are getting pissed with this, doing dead drops ect, After talking to the Area Rep i could see why they wanted it put in place and enforced.
His thinking was, if we never had an area wide agreement and every office treated D2D differently we could have the same scenario we have now when it comes to car users and runners.
By that he meant that 1 person could do the walk say clearing his D2D on a Monday and Tues using his car or carrying overweight bags,
But the following week someone who follows the weight limits and doesn't use his car cant.
The one who can't then has to face the Managers wrath which if they both did it properly should not happen.

Also D2D is now, whether we like it or not classed as Live Mail, and as such must be delivered each day and completed by the end of the week.
But what happens if i manage them myself and don't do any on Monday and Tues because they are light days, but plan to clear them by sat.
Nothing wrong with that you may say, until i go sick on Wednesday ! or i am put onto another duty because we are short.
Now who's responsibility is the 32% of my D2D that have not been done so far , Who should complete them or who should be conducted for them if they are not completed.

By doing 1/6 a day and having the frames marked out everyone knows where they stand, If someone goes sick that's OK because you just pick up from the day you go on it, simple and all D2D get done.
If Rm check up on the delivery of D2D and find some haven't been done, they can check what day they should have been done ( By Knocking on a few doors around the Duty )
who was on it the day they were missed and therefore who's to blame for the failure, thus protecting floaters or duty holders from being wrongly accused.

Another point, The Rep brought up was the time to dead walk and prep would now have to be taken into account, making it harder for your Dom to expect you to lapse.

My personal view is RM will by hook or by crook make everyone of us work our full hours, so we need to get the Job and Finish mentality out of our heads,
stop cutting corners and do the job as RM want us to even though we know it's bullshit.
I mean in what other job would management except you telling them what or how you were going to do something FFS.
Soon enough we will have Trackers in vans and PDA's, we will have the IWT timings and we will have GeoRoute 2008.
And If you still manage to get done before your time after all of that RM will still just give you more work End Of.
Last edited by Geezer on 05 Jul 2010, 11:22, edited 3 times in total.
trythat
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by trythat »

We're just working out the policy for D2D, but I know we are going to insist on a whole section (1/6th) at least per day, throwing no more than probably 2 sections per day. But trying to explain any of this to the office is hard work, people are only intrested when they might have to do more work, and you then say job and finish is gone, and they just don't believe you.
We are using the D2D to stave off lapsing at the moment, and we're in the middle of putting a mini revison in.
It's a bit of a nightmare all round.
Patrick Clifton
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by Patrick Clifton »

Since the changes to D2D's, in my office at least, I have seen big changes happening. And not for the 'good.'

Before the changes I would occasionally have maybe 3-4 D2D's extra. Sometimes 3-4 short.

Now I have loads left by the end of the week. I am delivering mine!

I try to stick to the 1/6th per day, but on occasion I have looked at my frame and thought 'Hey, im going to nearly every door on 'Main Street,' may as well throw in those D2D's too.

Now we dont currently have our own regular floater. We are getting any Tom, Dick or Harry that is available. I always leave a note with what D2D's need to be delivered. I have marked the frame as best as I can with the sections (I do columns, I have 6 columns on my frame, not difficult to figure out.)

I believe that the D2D return policy was changed/scraped and they said that there should never be an overstock of D2D's. So if I am doing mine and there shouldn't be any spare D2D's then that leaves the floater.

Just waiting for them to kick up a stink about it :hmmmm
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by not me »

trythat wrote:We're just working out the policy for D2D, but I know we are going to insist on a whole section (1/6th) at least per day, throwing no more than probably 2 sections per day. But trying to explain any of this to the office is hard work, people are only intrested when they might have to do more work, and you then say job and finish is gone, and they just don't believe you.
We are using the D2D to stave off lapsing at the moment, and we're in the middle of putting a mini revison in.
It's a bit of a nightmare all round.
it has to be this way,1/6th a day
all part of the daily duties
if you can do more D2D's on one day then they can use that argument for more lapsing :whistle
i realised last week i was screwing myself
i was firing in my 20% a day from the 'old' daily D2D list
so i shall be requesting a 1/6th breakdown of the duty from the DIM :wink:
fishtank
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by fishtank »

Patrick Clifton wrote: I believe that the D2D return policy was changed/scraped and they said that there should never be an overstock of D2D's. So if I am doing mine and there shouldn't be any spare D2D's then that leaves the floater.

Just waiting for them to kick up a stink about it :hmmmm
Not always....someone else could perhaps be using your frame as a dumping ground.....it does unfortunately happen :sad: :hmmmm
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
Glenno
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by Glenno »

By doing 1/6 a day and having the frames marked out everyone knows where they stand, If someone goes sick that's OK because you just pick up from the day you go on it, simple and all D2D get done.
If Rm check up on the delivery of D2D and find some haven't been done, they can check what day they should have been done who was on it and therefore who's to blame for the failure, thus protecting
floaters or duty holders from being wrongly accused.

Another point, The Rep brought up was the time to dead walk and prep would now have to be taken into account, making it harder for your Dom to expect you to lapse.
This has got to be the common sense approach pre-revision + insist on it horizontally as DRB quoted
the argument about leaving it to the walk-holder does not hold water post-revision :wave :wave
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by Judgee »

Just put the damn things in the bin and forget about it! :dance :wink: :d'oh! :crazy: :Very Happy
Union what Union? Do we have a union?
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Geezer wrote:How we manage Door to door in our office
Quote cut down for brevity.

Entirely agree Geezer its a very good system but I just hope that the membership of the area concerned are contacted and their views taken into account before this becomes the "official" way of doing it,

I think the system you have set up is a very good one and if handled correctly has the benefits you described. However, I think implementing it without getting the members on side would be against the spirit of the agreement and IMHO would be grist for the mill when people say that the CWU is out of touch.

I don't think you need a formal ballot but a WTL session with a show of hands and a back and forth discussion would do.
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Glenno wrote:
This has got to be the common sense approach pre-revision + insist on it horizontally as DRB quoted
the argument about leaving it to the walk-holder does not hold water post-revision :wave :wave
I don't think a hard and fast rule of the first 1/6 of the walk is done Monday 2/6 Tuesday etc should be enforced rigidly - as this would not be flexible and might not work for certain walks.

At our DO we have gone for a system of nominated roads for each day, or on longer streets between certain numbers. This has the benefit of spreading the load over the whole week rather than having the first bag split on Monday etc.

Another system I used to use before this came in could also be used where using the frame you do 1/6th vertically .

You could also do 1/6th of each bag per day, you could even do any of the above but in reverse so that on the on Monday you do the last 1/6 of each bag/frame (horizontal or vertical) so that on the busy days Wed - Fri you get rid of the D2Ds roughly by the middle of each bag so your not carrying the extra weight of the D2Ds furthest on the heaviest days.

But whichever system is used for each walk it must be put in writing so that the Duty Holder and anyone else covering the Duty knows exactly what they should do on a given day.
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Geezer
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by Geezer »

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
Glenno wrote:
This has got to be the common sense approach pre-revision + insist on it horizontally as DRB quoted
the argument about leaving it to the walk-holder does not hold water post-revision :wave :wave
I don't think a hard and fast rule of the first 1/6 of the walk is done Monday 2/6 Tuesday etc should be enforced rigidly - as this would not be flexible and might not work for certain walks.

At our DO we have gone for a system of nominated roads for each day, or on longer streets between certain numbers. This has the benefit of spreading the load over the whole week rather than having the first bag split on Monday etc.

Another system I used to use before this came in could also be used where using the frame you do 1/6th vertically .

You could also do 1/6th of each bag per day, you could even do any of the above but in reverse so that on the on Monday you do the last 1/6 of each bag/frame (horizontal or vertical) so that on the busy days Wed - Fri you get rid of the D2Ds roughly by the middle of each bag so your not carrying the extra weight of the D2Ds furthest on the heaviest days.

But whichever system is used for each walk it must be put in writing so that the Duty Holder and anyone else covering the Duty knows exactly what they should do on a given day.


TBT

I understand what you say about going down the frame vertically to rediuce weight in a bag, But my answer would be make more bags.
Now i don't say that being cocky, I say it because if you have to dead walk back to a pouchbox or wait for a timed bag, which once again adds time to your duty which means no lapseing, braking off or getting paid overtime.
Now more than ever we need to prove that it takes longer to do your job, and do it properly than RM and managers give us credit for.
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Geezer wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
Glenno wrote:
This has got to be the common sense approach pre-revision + insist on it horizontally as DRB quoted
the argument about leaving it to the walk-holder does not hold water post-revision :wave :wave
I don't think a hard and fast rule of the first 1/6 of the walk is done Monday 2/6 Tuesday etc should be enforced rigidly - as this would not be flexible and might not work for certain walks.

At our DO we have gone for a system of nominated roads for each day, or on longer streets between certain numbers. This has the benefit of spreading the load over the whole week rather than having the first bag split on Monday etc.

Another system I used to use before this came in could also be used where using the frame you do 1/6th vertically .

You could also do 1/6th of each bag per day, you could even do any of the above but in reverse so that on the on Monday you do the last 1/6 of each bag/frame (horizontal or vertical) so that on the busy days Wed - Fri you get rid of the D2Ds roughly by the middle of each bag so your not carrying the extra weight of the D2Ds furthest on the heaviest days.

But whichever system is used for each walk it must be put in writing so that the Duty Holder and anyone else covering the Duty knows exactly what they should do on a given day.


TBT

I understand what you say about going down the frame vertically to rediuce weight in a bag, But my answer would be make more bags.
Now i don't say that being cocky, I say it because if you have to dead walk back to a pouchbox or wait for a timed bag, which once again adds time to your duty which means no lapseing, braking off or getting paid overtime.
Now more than ever we need to prove that it takes longer to do your job, and do it properly than RM and managers give us credit for.
Oh agree about bag weights and I never go over them, what I mean about the different methods is that if you do the furthest 1/6 on quieter days then you are reducing the wear and tear on you as you are carrying the weight on heavier days less of a distance. TBH if you take 1/6 each day then whether its at the front or back of a bag it should not affect the weight of the bag, but it does affect how far you have to walk with most of the weight in it.

I am not explaining it well, that's the problem with communicating by typing :Very Happy but I prefer to carry the D2Ds furthest on Monday/Tuesday (but keep to the matrix) and 1/6th when I have more energy, rather than doing the same on Thursday/Friday/Saturday when my energy levels are low. On those days I prefer to do the D2Ds at the start of each bag, the weights the same and its takes the same amount of time, but I am getting rid of most of the weight at the start of the bags rather than at the end.
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Re: D2D - CHANGING THE AGREEMENT WITHOUT MEMBERS INPUT

Post by not me »

Geezer wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:
Glenno wrote:
This has got to be the common sense approach pre-revision + insist on it horizontally as DRB quoted
the argument about leaving it to the walk-holder does not hold water post-revision :wave :wave
I don't think a hard and fast rule of the first 1/6 of the walk is done Monday 2/6 Tuesday etc should be enforced rigidly - as this would not be flexible and might not work for certain walks.

At our DO we have gone for a system of nominated roads for each day, or on longer streets between certain numbers. This has the benefit of spreading the load over the whole week rather than having the first bag split on Monday etc.

Another system I used to use before this came in could also be used where using the frame you do 1/6th vertically .

You could also do 1/6th of each bag per day, you could even do any of the above but in reverse so that on the on Monday you do the last 1/6 of each bag/frame (horizontal or vertical) so that on the busy days Wed - Fri you get rid of the D2Ds roughly by the middle of each bag so your not carrying the extra weight of the D2Ds furthest on the heaviest days.

But whichever system is used for each walk it must be put in writing so that the Duty Holder and anyone else covering the Duty knows exactly what they should do on a given day.


TBT

I understand what you say about going down the frame vertically to rediuce weight in a bag, But my answer would be make more bags.
Now i don't say that being cocky, I say it because if you have to dead walk back to a pouchbox or wait for a timed bag, which once again adds time to your duty which means no lapseing, braking off or getting paid overtime.
Now more than ever we need to prove that it takes longer to do your job, and do it properly than RM and managers give us credit for.

should be planning these things with P&L in mind :wink:
i actually prefer a vertical split as you have the D2D's split over the walk in (relatively) short sections
rather than one long chunk
I throw my D2D's into the frame before any mail
that way theres no chance of me selectivly pickinmg bits that are quiet/busy
i just bung em in and thats it
i hate em but wouldnt give em the chance to pull me up on them