Pay stopped whilst on sick. legal or not?

[revo3600]

Had a letter from my DOM today saying my pay was being stopped from monday this week.

Reason being is that I have been off sick since 12th Dec and have a doctors note that covers me until Jan 9th, but during that time I had a holiday booked from Dec 28th to Jan 4th (which was booked months before i went off sick) . My DOM has said that they and ATOS tried to contact me 3 times during the week I was away and because I didnt answer any of the calls (how could I , I was miles away!) they are now stopping my pay until I contact the DOM to discuss my absence! Now, I did actually try to contact him yesterday by phone 5 times but no answer at the office and also phoned today but it was his day off! My question is , If i have a doctors note that dates until jan 9th can they A) stop my pay legally? and B) Can they make me take the weeks holiday or should it be incorporated into my sick leave as recupperation ?

many thanks

[Carnoustie]

Had a letter from my DOM today saying my pay was being stopped from monday this week.

Reason being is that I have been off sick since 12th Dec and have a doctors note that covers me until Jan 9th, but during that time I had a holiday booked from Dec 28th to Jan 4th (which was booked months before i went off sick) . My DOM has said that they and ATOS tried to contact me 3 times during the week I was away and because I didnt answer any of the calls (how could I , I was miles away!) they are now stopping my pay until I contact the DOM to discuss my absence! Now, I did actually try to contact him yesterday by phone 5 times but no answer at the office and also phoned today but it was his day off! My question is , If i have a doctors note that dates until jan 9th can they A) stop my pay legally? and B) Can they make me take the weeks holiday or should it be incorporated into my sick leave as recupperation ?

many thanks

Don't know about A), so you'll have to wait for someone else on here to advise you.
On B), they should be counting you as being on one continuous period of sick since 12th Dec. The fact you had annual leave booked is neither here nor there; you should get the leave credited back to your card as soon as resume from your period of sick.

[hantsman]

Have you sent copies of the sick notes? You will get yr leave back as long as you have a doctors certificate for the dates of the leave booked. The DOMS letter could be a threat of course, but you should advise the office of any updates re when/if you are going back.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

A legally they can withold the pay, it could be justified by saying as they had attempted to contact you and you would not talk to them, and you appeared not to have the intention of coming back to work, ie you quit but didnt tell them, they could withold the wage but only till your intentions were clear, then they would have to restart your wage and pay the wages which had been withheld, might not seem right but they can do it

B you were on sick leave prior to start of annual leave, therefore you were never on annual leave, you are still due theses holidays later in the year.

[welshblue67]

In in a similar situation

( http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 15&t=23195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

ive been off sick since the begining of December. Ive got a sick note till Jan 13th but my manager as threatened to put me on saturtory sick pay based on a report from atos !!

[norbert]

Had a letter from my DOM today saying my pay was being stopped from monday this week.

Reason being is that I have been off sick since 12th Dec and have a doctors note that covers me until Jan 9th, but during that time I had a holiday booked from Dec 28th to Jan 4th (which was booked months before i went off sick) . My DOM has said that they and ATOS tried to contact me 3 times during the week I was away and because I didnt answer any of the calls (how could I , I was miles away!) they are now stopping my pay until I contact the DOM to discuss my absence! Now, I did actually try to contact him yesterday by phone 5 times but no answer at the office and also phoned today but it was his day off! My question is , If i have a doctors note that dates until jan 9th can they A) stop my pay legally? and B) Can they make me take the weeks holiday or should it be incorporated into my sick leave as recupperation ?

many thanks

Don't know about A), so you'll have to wait for someone else on here to advise you.
On B), they should be counting you as being on one continuous period of sick since 12th Dec. The fact you had annual leave booked is neither here nor there; you should get the leave credited back to your card as soon as resume from your period of sick.

I've seen a statement which the local Union signed as well - saying if you go off sick , RM have to approve a holiday as suitable for your recovery / rehabilitation . Don't know if that's any help ?

Sounds a bit trigger happy to me and splitting hairs .

[MinisterofCucumber]

Norbert,

WTF?

The ECJ ruling, Stringer v HMRC, prevents workers from taking annual leave while off sick. Your employer cannot tell you where you are allowed to be when you are off sick. Your local union does not have the authority to sign away your human rights and should not be trying to do so. How would your union rep like it if you decided to remove his right to a fair trial, gave him a kangaroo court, found him guilty of collaborating and punished him by inserting a cucumber up his local agreement?

Revo3600,

Write to your DOM and thank him for being concerned about your health. Tell him that as annual leave is not allowed to be taken while off sick, you assumed that your leave was cancelled and you would have the opportunity to re-book it when you returned to work. Say what date you intend to return to work and ask for your pay to be resumed. Finish by expressing how much you are looking forward to working with him again and politely request that if he needs to contact you, he does so in writing.

Hope this helps.

[norbert]

Norbert,

WTF?

The ECJ ruling, Stringer v HMRC, prevents workers from taking annual leave while off sick. Your employer cannot tell you where you are allowed to be when you are off sick. Your local union does not have the authority to sign away your human rights and should not be trying to do so. How would your union rep like it if you decided to remove his right to a fair trial, gave him a kangaroo court, found him guilty of collaborating and punished him by inserting a cucumber up his local agreement?

Revo3600,

Write to your DOM and thank him for being concerned about your health. Tell him that as annual leave is not allowed to be taken while off sick, you assumed that your leave was cancelled and you would have the opportunity to re-book it when you returned to work. Say what date you intend to return to work and ask for your pay to be resumed. Finish by expressing how much you are looking forward to working with him again and politely request that if he needs to contact you, he does so in writing.

Hope this helps.

Background to all this was the workplace was noticeably under performing with EP targets and apparently had one of the worst absence records in the country , we were officially told that the only worse one's were some of the London DO's & MC's featured in the first Channel 4 " Despatches ".

RM parachuted this Geordie " Messiah " type manager in , I called him " Leighton's Love Child " , the previous manager who was given 4 years to sort the place out and failed was promoted to Area Manager - Yes Typical RM ! .

To get that far at his age , you'd have had to tell RM exactly what they wanted to hear . I saw through him as a smiling assassin , an operator though but maybe that's because the previous ones that I'd seen were that poor .

The managers were initially terrified of him , but eventually the old hands worked out how to play him . He tried to get rid of the bosses over the linos , one "coincidentally" was the CMA rep , the other was a Mr PO but also an alcoholic . The previous CMA rep ( Hector ) was a nasty bully with a record as long as your arm , false imprisonment on a postwoman once apparently . The kindest thing you could say about him , he wouldn't take it personally if you stood up to him .

He promoted a unit rep to local Personnel Manager to neutralise him , this is going back 6 years or so but he played the Area Rep against all the staff over that £26 bonus up to £300 , the Branch ( which is a big patch covering two provincial counties had reservations about it - The Union nationally also had reservations too ) by holding a workplace "ballot" on it and bombarding the staff with RM propaganda on savings .

There was obviously kudos for getting that bonus savings scheme in for " The Messiah " ahead of many other offices . I saw it as a glorified fiddle . We got it in stages and it took a year . On that C4 Documentary a MCM worker said it was fiddled too with some " creative accounting " .


The " ballot box " was a catering size margarine tub with a slit on the top . If you " voted " against it , you were invited to say why you objected . Very few staff cooperated . Other gimmicks were a BAR-BQ at his house , only two managers went , one an acting manager that was immediately made substantial , the other moved with him when the " Messiah " got his promotion . Basically he took the " better " managers with him .

One manager that complained about this was told " What have you done for RM ? " . One manager that was off on long term sick for operations was told to work from home , all the broadband equipment etc was arranged by the weekend . One ( " By Royal Appointment " ) blue shirt who was well known for being a professional skivver and barrack room lawyer and crossing picket lines was brought back in to type all his letters out .

He also used gimmicks like soap box or perstop speeches , glossy leaflets , for some strange reason the staff photographed on them were all non union . Staff off sick were rang up at all hours , somebody's missus took a bedside call at five to midnight such was the pressure from on high .

The best one was a " morale boosting " First Line Fix Draw - allegedly a ex manager's ( especially after his appeal and Court Case ) shifty arrogant non union son " won " the car . Nobody expected any better . These places thrive on their own corruption - There has been the odd DOM that " won " cars in draws nationwide apparently .

As long as it ticks the RM boxes It's easy to " transform " a badly run office .

One of the letters was the one I previously mentioned - we were told " we wouldn't like to see you on unauthorised absence and Conduct Coded " if we didn't fully cooperate . It was countersigned by the Area Rep who incidentally apparently voted for Keggie as DGS instead of Dave Ward .

I agree with what you say Minister Of Cucumber , I know there's some old soldiers that shall we say the timing of their sick absence is " convenient " BUT if RM suspect that someone has had the recovery powers of Lazarus as soon as he jetted off from Gatwick etc and is swinging the lead , it's up to RM to prove it ? .

[MinisterofCucumber]

Norbert,

The truth is that we have trusted our union reps to protect our rights but they have betrayed us. We all need to stand at the next elections and kick them out.

In the meantime, we have to deal with the situation of how it is and assume the worst case scenario, i.e. that we won't be allowed to vote these cnuts out.

Once CWU members realise that we can't trust our reps, we will treat them in the same way that we treat management. The most important thing is to make sure that all communications with our reps is done in writing. That way we will be able to gather evidence against them.

If union officials and other collaborators are being allowed to get away with doing less work, use the grievance procedure to force management to make them work like the rest of us.

Your local union cannot agree that if you go off sick , RM have to approve a holiday as suitable for your recovery / rehabilitation because the ECJ ruling states that you are not allowed to be paid annual leave while you are off sick. Therefore if you choose to recover in the Bahamas, you are not doing this as part of your annual leave. Where you locate yourself when you are sick is up to you. Your manager is not allowed to contact you more than once a week and you can request they do this in writing, by letter or email. If you update them weekly on your condition, they have no business hassling you.

What are they going to try to bring in next?
Will we have to seek approval on the type of holiday we are allowed to take?
If you want to take your wife on a wine drinking holiday in France will you be informed that this sort of activity is only suitable for management and you should take her on a lager drinking tour of Margate instead as this is more in keeping with your serf status.
Your manager does not own you.

[norbert]

The kindest thing I can say is that it was arguably too easy going at one time in RM at one time in some places . Stories of Managers ringing up pubs to get reps in to sort out trouble allegedly .

I have seen silly wild cat strikes like staff walking out because two drivers were sacked for fighting . Sorry but ACAS would regard that as Gross Misconduct .

However the problem I've seen is that some reps seem to hark back to long gone days with relatively benign management and are a bit instuitionalized . Which means that managers like that " Messiah " run absolute rings round reps and make them look like c**ts . RM must absolutely love it . Leighton was brought in with the DTI's backing to soften staff up & play them up against the Union for the fool's paradise Corporate "Utopia" .

RM have always regarded themselves above the law but with the likes of :cfo and that regimented top down 70's style they've operated at the very limit at best and put some very perverse interpretations on things .

The bit about RM "owning you" is very 90's , i.e. The Contract is King , You will go to work when it's dark and finish when it's dark and we will make you grateful for it - 1890's ? - there is also Resources Management ( a right wing Professor's take on Macho Management ) , you show your loyalty by working Overtime and shopping that awful Union .

I've had some inane conversations in a past life re work/ hours /OT which beggared belief - Missus Norbert couldn't believe it either , the CEO was also head of the CBI and said it was not in our interests to join a union .