Revalations on PEC voting

[IWW Fellow Worker]

Resulting to sly little digs does little other than suggest you have no constructive ideas of your own. Also don't get your reference to negotiations at national vs local level, we've always had national frameworks implemented at local level to my memory. Still we cant all be a smart as you now can we.

Well if you would like to point out the National Framework for this deal I would be only too happy to read it. The IRF and the MTSF are both in great jeopardy from this deal but as you say killjoy you aren't as smart as I am nor the other no voters on this forum. If you seriously think that the CWU are going to have an impact in the future workplace you are deluded.

As for constructive ideas - get rid of the present leadership and vote in those who are willing but more importantly able to negotiate for us. The CWU is no place for staged rhetoric. How about a shorter working week, more holidays, the right to retire at 60 with dignity and with a full pension, input on recruitment, - when I joined Killjoy you didn't get in unless you were acceptable to the local union reps. I think you will admit that the level of candidate falls far short of what used to be expected.

As for the "sly" little digs there is nothing sly about something which you clearly invite by your postings.

Looks like im deluded as well Some good points though about a shorter working week and more holidays.Thing is these dont come cheap,and with the current financial problems the business has theres more chance of Millwall winning the F.A cup then us getting those benefits at the moment

What current financial problems?

They've just spent over forty million quid of our money on giving bonuses to unproductive office boy drones. I would say that was a big problem mate.

[BELIAL]

Don't forget subsidising DSA

[dvbuk55]

Don't forget subsidising DSA

Or the quote of a £12million loss which has eventually surfaced as a £233million profit despite the additional payments to the pension fund.

[johnnyp]

Resulting to sly little digs does little other than suggest you have no constructive ideas of your own. Also don't get your reference to negotiations at national vs local level, we've always had national frameworks implemented at local level to my memory. Still we cant all be a smart as you now can we.

Well if you would like to point out the National Framework for this deal I would be only too happy to read it. The IRF and the MTSF are both in great jeopardy from this deal but as you say killjoy you aren't as smart as I am nor the other no voters on this forum. If you seriously think that the CWU are going to have an impact in the future workplace you are deluded.

As for constructive ideas - get rid of the present leadership and vote in those who are willing but more importantly able to negotiate for us. The CWU is no place for staged rhetoric. How about a shorter working week, more holidays, the right to retire at 60 with dignity and with a full pension, input on recruitment, - when I joined Killjoy you didn't get in unless you were acceptable to the local union reps. I think you will admit that the level of candidate falls far short of what used to be expected.

As for the "sly" little digs there is nothing sly about something which you clearly invite by your postings.

Looks like im deluded as well Some good points though about a shorter working week and more holidays.Thing is these dont come cheap,and with the current financial problems the business has theres more chance of Millwall winning the F.A cup then us getting those benefits at the moment

What current financial problems?

Dont know the figures for sure but profits are down on last year,the 1.2 billion loan has to be paid back,with interest i bet, and the pension fund is in the s**t and weve lost more DSA contracts,croziers fault i know,not exactly rolling it in lads are we and to top it off a government who dont give a monkeys about us and would love it if someone took us off there hands.Oh and Postcom

[IWW Fellow Worker]

Don't forget subsidising DSA

And £15m on those senseless televisions no one watches but remain on nevertheless, the thousands of pounds wasted on Have Your Say (And be ignored) questionaires, boots that come apart, uniforms which change colour after a few washes, bags which tear at the seams etc, etc.

[johnnyp]

Looks like im deluded as well Some good points though about a shorter working week and more holidays.Thing is these dont come cheap,and with the current financial problems the business has theres more chance of Millwall winning the F.A cup then us getting those benefits at the moment

JP these things didn't even enter the equation because we didn't ask for them - in fact the CWU didn't ask for anything - they waited for RM to make the play and then reacted poorly to what was an outrageous set of proposals.

The leadership of this union are not interested in the well being of its members. Rather than demand that the Government make good the monies taken from the pension fund they actually collude with RM to rob us. They finance a Government that has stolen from us and the leadership court Gordon Browns acceptance by supporting him and the Labour Party publicly despite the fact that they snubbed the CWU. They didn't, last November, put to RM our members demands:

1. A 35 hour week
2. 6 weeks holiday a year - up to another 2 weeks purchasable
3. 5% pay increase across the board - OT, SA, LLA.
4. No strings
5. New working practices to be negotiated within a new MTSF agreement
6. A review of the current IR Framework with special regard to sickness procedure.
7. Input on recruitment contracts
8. Local agreement on DWP implementation

Do these proposals seem unrealistic? So did RMs but, guess what, they got what they asked for because they dared to ask - we got what we asked for which was sweet FA.

I like your style friend We can all dream cant we but at the same time we have to be realistic.Take your 35 hour week proposal,ive been a postie for 21 years and in that time weve gone from 41.5 hour week to 40 hour week.What chance of 35very little I would love a 35 hour week on 40 hour money

[dvbuk55]

]I like your style friend We can all dream cant we but at the same time we have to be realistic.Take your 35 hour week proposal,ive been a postie for 21 years and in that time weve gone from 41.5 hour week to 40 hour week.What chance of 35very little I would love a 35 hour week on 40 hour money

How do we know they didn't ask? - because they haven't told us they did.

They are offering new entrants 30 hour contracts - actually 25 and less in some instances. That is not really the point though. A 35 hour week without loss of income is a pay rise for full time and part time employees. After 35 hours a part timer would be entitled to overtime and a full timer entitled to o/t after 35 hours. As for the 41.5 to 40 hours - that wasn't negotiated with the present incumbents JP and was many years ago. I actually forget how long but must be 15 or so - before the CWU probably when we were the UCW.

But I see you are a person prepared to accept whatever is shovelled your way rather than expect better from people we pay a considerable amount of money to.

[IWW Fellow Worker]

]I like your style friend We can all dream cant we but at the same time we have to be realistic.Take your 35 hour week proposal,ive been a postie for 21 years and in that time weve gone from 41.5 hour week to 40 hour week.What chance of 35very little I would love a 35 hour week on 40 hour money


How do we know they didn't ask? - because they haven't told us they did.

They are offering new entrants 30 hour contracts - actually 25 and less in some instances. That is not really the point though. A 35 hour week without loss of income is a pay rise for full time and part time employees. After 35 hours a part timer would be entitled to overtime and a full timer entitled to o/t after 35 hours. As for the 41.5 to 40 hours - that wasn't negotiated with the present incumbents JP and was many years ago. I actually forget how long but must be 15 or so - before the CWU probably when we were the UCW.

But I see you are a person prepared to accept whatever is shovelled your way rather than expect better from people we pay a considerable amount of money to.

And when we went from 43 to 41.5 hours, the UCW got an agreement that the 1.5 hours per week were banked and we all got a couple of days extra leave.

[dvbuk55]

]I like your style friend We can all dream cant we but at the same time we have to be realistic.Take your 35 hour week proposal,ive been a postie for 21 years and in that time weve gone from 41.5 hour week to 40 hour week.What chance of 35very little I would love a 35 hour week on 40 hour money


How do we know they didn't ask? - because they haven't told us they did.

They are offering new entrants 30 hour contracts - actually 25 and less in some instances. That is not really the point though. A 35 hour week without loss of income is a pay rise for full time and part time employees. After 35 hours a part timer would be entitled to overtime and a full timer entitled to o/t after 35 hours. As for the 41.5 to 40 hours - that wasn't negotiated with the present incumbents JP and was many years ago. I actually forget how long but must be 15 or so - before the CWU probably when we were the UCW.

But I see you are a person prepared to accept whatever is shovelled your way rather than expect better from people we pay a considerable amount of money to.

And when we went from 43 to 41.5 hours, the UCW got an agreement that the 1.5 hours per week were banked and we all got a couple of days extra leave.

Hang on a minute there IWW we aren't as old as that - was that before or after WWII

[IWW Fellow Worker]

]I like your style friend We can all dream cant we but at the same time we have to be realistic.Take your 35 hour week proposal,ive been a postie for 21 years and in that time weve gone from 41.5 hour week to 40 hour week.What chance of 35very little I would love a 35 hour week on 40 hour money


How do we know they didn't ask? - because they haven't told us they did.

They are offering new entrants 30 hour contracts - actually 25 and less in some instances. That is not really the point though. A 35 hour week without loss of income is a pay rise for full time and part time employees. After 35 hours a part timer would be entitled to overtime and a full timer entitled to o/t after 35 hours. As for the 41.5 to 40 hours - that wasn't negotiated with the present incumbents JP and was many years ago. I actually forget how long but must be 15 or so - before the CWU probably when we were the UCW.

But I see you are a person prepared to accept whatever is shovelled your way rather than expect better from people we pay a considerable amount of money to.

And when we went from 43 to 41.5 hours, the UCW got an agreement that the 1.5 hours per week were banked and we all got a couple of days extra leave.

Hang on a minute there IWW we aren't as old as that - was that before or after WWII

Here you go! From an IWW article from 2001, so we're looking at 1989 when we went from 43 to 41.5.

When the last reduction in working hours took place over twelve years ago, the working week was reduced from forty three hours to the present forty one and a half. Between the proposal going through and the implementation of it, the one and a half hours was 'banked' and when everyone went onto the new hours, these hours were given back as time off.

NOT SO THIS TIME. The CWU have not sought to get an agreement from Royal Mail that the hour and a half will be banked. Since May thousands of staff have been working an hour and a half per week extra for no overtime. That's almost two weeks a year worked for Royal Mail with not a penny in payment.

To add insult to injury, Royal Mail with agreement from the CWU insist that over 60% of the reduction in working hours is funded by staff. In short, work harder in less time and you can have a 40 hour week.

[johnnyp]

]I like your style friend We can all dream cant we but at the same time we have to be realistic.Take your 35 hour week proposal,ive been a postie for 21 years and in that time weve gone from 41.5 hour week to 40 hour week.What chance of 35very little I would love a 35 hour week on 40 hour money

How do we know they didn't ask? - because they haven't told us they did.

They are offering new entrants 30 hour contracts - actually 25 and less in some instances. That is not really the point though. A 35 hour week without loss of income is a pay rise for full time and part time employees. After 35 hours a part timer would be entitled to overtime and a full timer entitled to o/t after 35 hours. As for the 41.5 to 40 hours - that wasn't negotiated with the present incumbents JP and was many years ago. I actually forget how long but must be 15 or so - before the CWU probably when we were the UCW.

But I see you are a person prepared to accept whatever is shovelled your way rather than expect better from people we pay a considerable amount of money to.

No im not actually and i believe will will make gains in other areas in the very near future,with different people at the top if need be.

[dvbuk55]

IWW - I must have been working 43 hours when I first started but I truly don't remember and I thought it was much longer since we went to 40 hours but I stand corrected.

However I still think we should go for a shorter week - having said that I only work 25 now - and some say I don't work that, the cheeky swines.

[IWW Fellow Worker]

IWW - I must have been working 43 hours when I first started but I truly don't remember and I thought it was much longer since we went to 40 hours but I stand corrected.

However I still think we should go for a shorter week - having said that I only work 25 now - and some say I don't work that, the cheeky swines.

Here's the full article. Over six years old, but still containing some relevent points I think:

THE 'SHORTER WORKING WEEK' as proposed by The Way Forward Agreement provides for full-time postal workers who are currently on a forty one and a half hour week to fall into line with what many other workers have enjoyed since the 1960's, namely a forty hour week.

On the face of it, the Post Office has changed little for decades despite all attempts at changing the image. The GPO, Royal Mail, Royal Mail Letters back to Royal Mail again and so on. Hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on a new 'logo' and name while the same out of date conditions prevail.

Much is owed to the days when uniformed services based their employee relations on military practices. Hence, holidays are still referred to as 'leave', and the person who gives out overtime is the overtime 'captain'. Disciplinary procedures still resemble court martials at which you may be accompanied by a 'friend', and disciplinary action by management is called an 'award' in the same way as in the armed forces.

DO NOT BE MISLED. Royal Mail are bang up to date and know full well what they are about in treating workers as though they are beasts of burden.

When the last reduction in working hours took place over twelve years ago, the working week was reduced from forty three hours to the present forty one and a half. Between the proposal going through and the implementation of it, the one and a half hours was 'banked' and when everyone went onto the new hours, these hours were given back as time off.

NOT SO THIS TIME. The CWU have not sought to get an agreement from Royal Mail that the hour and a half will be banked. Since May thousands of staff have been working an hour and a half per week extra for no overtime. That's almost two weeks a year worked for Royal Mail with not a penny in payment.

To add insult to injury, Royal Mail with agreement from the CWU insist that over 60% of the reduction in working hours is funded by staff. In short, work harder in less time and you can have a 40 hour week.

In the last twenty years, Royal Mail has brought in machines to face and stamp letters and packets (ALF) and to code sort mail into areas (IMPS). Before long these machines will be sorting to walk order. Until now, job losses have been dealt with by 'natural wastage' but how much longer can this go on for?

Under the present capitalist system, new technology has invariably meant job losses. It has never entered the heads of management that hours could be reduced with no loss of pay for workers. Such a concept is alien to the greed driven rush for more profits and fatter wage packets for bosses.

ROYAL MAIL IS NO BETTER THAN ANY OTHER EMPLOYER. YOU really are just a number. They would rather give you the sack than bring in a realistic modern proposal like a thirty five hour week.

Given the level of investment Royal Mail have ploughed back in of the money YOU have made for them, there is no reason why anyone should still be working a 40 hour week.

The attitude of the bosses, Royal Mail and CWU, in bringing in a 40 hour week, quite honestly insults workers. It's as though they are doing us a favour!

WE SHOULD BE FIGHTING FOR A 35 HOUR WEEK NOW FOR ALL FULL-TIME STAFF. What is required is a union that will take up the fight for the equalisation of hours downward for both full-time and part-time staff, because it will involve a fight. They have never given us anything without one.

We will be taking on the combined might of Royal Mail and the CWU in order that our jobs will be secure and the postal service will be a better place to work in the years ahead. What we need is a union which is prepared to fight to make these things a reality.

The Industrial Workers of the World is such a union. No union bosses drinking from the same cup as the employers, no union bosses on fantastic salaries, just workers like yourselves working alongside you.

THIS ROTTEN SOCIETY CANNOT BE REFORMED. This is where politicians are wrong. It must be re-built anew with the needs of the working class, the only class that matter, firmly in mind. That way, technology can be put to use to make life pleasant and give each person more time to enjoy it.

Join with other workers around the world who see the enemy as the ruthless bosses and their management puppets who exploit our labour

[dvbuk55]

Reading that in full really brings home how little has changed over the years. I don't know if it is just me and my nostalgic view of the past but surely we were tougher negotiators 30 years ago. So many people say things were different then but in reality they weren't - it is we who were different, who were prepared to stand and fight for what we truly believed was our just reward for our time. Sadly I feel we are never going to return to those days when we knew we were right and would stand by it.

[baldrick]

Reading that in full really brings home how little has changed over the years. I don't know if it is just me and my nostalgic view of the past but surely we were tougher negotiators 30 years ago. So many people say things were different then but in reality they weren't - it is we who were different, who were prepared to stand and fight for what we truly believed was our just reward for our time. Sadly I feel we are never going to return to those days when we knew we were right and would stand by it.

Have to agree with you there dvbuk55. I think the problem is that society, in general, has changed, and our membership (and leadership) has as well. Unfortunately the Thatcher Government's defeat of the strongest sections of the trade union movement - the Miners, the Dockers and the Fleet St Printers - has led to a demoralisation within our ranks. The older members of our union have gradually left, and the newer entrants are glad to have escaped the temporary contracts/part time low pay working prevalent today, and think it is down to a benevolent employer. They are going to learn the hard way that is what RM have planned for us too.