Nicola fancies another Scottish referendum...

[Tman]

For that argument to work you would have to explain without hyperbole exactly how the EU has encroached on your personal freedom. I personally can't think of a single thing in my entire life that the EU has stopped me doing.

And for that argument to work you'd have to have no horizons other than home, pub and your place of work.
Then again, what have the evil English personally stopped you doing? What have they ever stopped wee Jimmy or any other SNP member from doing?

[simply_the_best]

Maybe you should look at your social circle bud, maybe you're mixing with the wrong people.

I'll maybe have to get a new job then, a lot of them are Posties!!

[fishtank]

Then again, what have the evil English personally stopped you doing? What have they ever stopped wee Jimmy or any other SNP member from doing?

That's not my position, it never has been.My issue has always been with the Westminster government not the English people like the vast majority of people who support self determination but if you want to keep stoking an imaginary hatred between the two countries feel free, you seem to have been doing more of that than anyone else on here.

[Tman]

OK then, just for your little snowflakey "let me try and find some imaginary slight somewhere in the tongue-in-cheek irony to avoid the question" self...
"What has Westminster ever stopped you personally from doing?"

{But you knew that was the meaning anyway, didn't you }

[simply_the_best]

OK then, just for your little snowflakey "let me try and find some imaginary slight somewhere in the tongue-in-cheek irony to avoid the question" self...
"What has Westminster ever stopped you personally from doing?"

{But you knew that was the meaning anyway, didn't you }

Westminster and Tories are general euphenism's for English

fish seems to have missed the centralising and controling nature of the Nat party, have a look at the appalling Named Person legislation for every child for starters.

Personally I'd scrap the overpriced abomination and total waste of public funds that has been Holyrood.

[fishtank]

You are both in competition to see who has the biggest chip on their shoulder, I have tried to stay civil in this thread despite the rather childish tone both of you seem to bring to any political thread,

Neither of you are interested in any attempt to debate other than parroting the same negative views, neither of you can even come up with anything positive to say about the union you supposedly support. It's getting old boys, I'm going to leave you to it.

[jetblack]

OK then, just for your little snowflakey "let me try and find some imaginary slight somewhere in the tongue-in-cheek irony to avoid the question" self...
"What has Westminster ever stopped you personally from doing?"

{But you knew that was the meaning anyway, didn't you }

Westminster and Tories are general euphenism's for English

fish seems to have missed the centralising and controling nature of the Nat party, have a look at the appalling Named Person legislation for every child for starters.

Personally I'd scrap the overpriced abomination and total waste of public funds that has been Holyrood.

What has Westminster ever stopped Scotland from doing ? Is that a joke

But TBH - and this is a big part of the problem with regards Indyref - why draw the line at Scotland ? I mean, anyone north of what ? watford, has been royally shagged by Westminster since time began as far as I can see.

Alistair Darling said during the (extensive) debates preceding the last indyref that of course he wanted whats best for the people of Glasgow/Dundee/ Edinburgh etc - but that equally he wanted what was best for the people of Liverpool and Manchester and Newcastle.
This is the crux of it for me.
We are better together.

Mick MacGahey once said "Nationalism is a bourgeois distraction from class struggle" - could not agree more.

[Tman]

You are both in competition to see who has the biggest chip on their shoulder, I have tried to stay civil in this thread despite the rather childish tone both of you seem to bring to any political thread,
Neither of you are interested in any attempt to debate other than parroting the same negative views, neither of you can even come up with anything positive to say about the union you supposedly support. It's getting old boys, I'm going to leave you to it.

Same old Fish then...no answer, no proposals..just the usual moans about how you think you've been treated on a forum.
That said, you did talk yourself up a ridiculous blind alley with the "what's the EU ever stopped me doing personally" rhetoric, and I can see why you bailed on it.

[simply_the_best]

You are both in competition to see who has the biggest chip on their shoulder, I have tried to stay civil in this thread despite the rather childish tone both of you seem to bring to any political thread,

Neither of you are interested in any attempt to debate other than parroting the same negative views, neither of you can even come up with anything positive to say about the union you supposedly support. It's getting old boys, I'm going to leave you to it.

A shared history, culture, language, 4 Nations united to make one of the greatest democracies in the World,

Some Scottish people go on about freedom and self determination, well just over 2.5 years ago we were given the chance to go it alone and by a massive margin, in political terms, 55 - 45 would be deemed a landslide in a 2 horse race, we voted to remain part of the UK, a UK we were warned that could have a vote on EU membership. A once in a generation opportunity, phukkin joke, little wonder I despise Nats.

If they had won in 2014 I'd have accepted the vote and got on with my life knowing that there was no 2nd chance, no going back, pity the Nats weren't as honorable.

[Tman]

Just as an aside, I see Salmond went to the Butcher of Bogside's funeral. He can't even make a moral judgement call on that, but I suppose he got his fat face in the media spotlight for another few seconds.

[simply_the_best]

Just as an aside, I see Salmond went to the Butcher of Bogside's funeral. He can't even make a moral judgement call on that, but I suppose he got his fat face in the media spotlight for another few seconds.

The same Salmond who as First Minister in 2012 could not find the time to attend the Armistice Day for our War Dead in London in 2012.

[Dayman!]

You are both in competition to see who has the biggest chip on their shoulder, I have tried to stay civil in this thread despite the rather childish tone both of you seem to bring to any political thread,

Neither of you are interested in any attempt to debate other than parroting the same negative views, neither of you can even come up with anything positive to say about the union you supposedly support. It's getting old boys, I'm going to leave you to it.

A shared history, culture, language, 4 Nations united to make one of the greatest democracies in the World,

Some Scottish people go on about freedom and self determination, well just over 2.5 years ago we were given the chance to go it alone and by a massive margin, in political terms, 55 - 45 would be deemed a landslide in a 2 horse race, we voted to remain part of the UK, a UK we were warned that could have a vote on EU membership. A once in a generation opportunity, phukkin joke, little wonder I despise Nats


If they had won in 2014 I'd have accepted the vote and got on with my life knowing that there was no 2nd chance, no going back, pity the Nats weren't as honorable.

A democracy so great that votes in Scotland have no bearing on the outcome of general elections...
And any history isn't suddenly going to disappear, it'll still be there when we go it alone.

The better together campaign never 'warned' anyone of a vote on EU membership, they said on numerous occasions that voting no was the only way to secure membership. This will have played a part in the 'landslide' victory with the over 150,000+ EU nationals living in Scotland likely siding with the unionist campaign because of this. With the uk definitely leaving the EU, I wonder which way those 150,000+ would vote given the chance again?

Like it or not, those nasty 'nats' were elected with a manifesto to move forward with plans for another referendum in the event of a material change such as Scotland being removed from the EU against its will. This isn't something that a few people have just decided they want another go at, it's the elected Scottish government moving forward with something everyone knew was on the cards.

So many of the unionist voters always go on about how they despise the 'nats', Salmond and Sturgeon, without realising that a vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP or a particular person. In fact the great irony is that the likelyhood of any other party getting into power in Hollyrood is in an independent Scotland...

[simply_the_best]

A democracy so great that votes in Scotland have no bearing on the outcome of general elections...
And any history isn't suddenly going to disappear, it'll still be there when we go it alone.

10 years of Labour? I take it you only enjoy democracy when on the winning side?

The better together campaign never 'warned' anyone of a vote on EU membership, they said on numerous occasions that voting no was the only way to secure membership. This will have played a part in the 'landslide' victory with the over 150,000+ EU nationals living in Scotland likely siding with the unionist campaign because of this. With the uk definitely leaving the EU, I wonder which way those 150,000+ would vote given the chance again?

Taking away the fact that a Yes vote would have seen Scotland leave the EU, if those 150,00 to a man had voted Yes you'd still have lost. There's also the fact that many Unionists voted remain and many Nats voted Leave,alsp a million less people in Scotland voted in the EU referendum than voted in 2014, obviously the UK seems a bigger priority to most Scots IMO

Like it or not, those nasty 'nats' were elected with a manifesto to move forward with plans for another referendum in the event of a material change such as Scotland being removed from the EU against its will. This isn't something that a few people have just decided they want another go at, it's the elected Scottish government moving forward with something everyone knew was on the cards.

The White paper stated that we could be voted out of the EU, we still voted No

So many of the unionist voters always go on about how they despise the 'nats', Salmond and Sturgeon, without realising that a vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP or a particular person. In fact the great irony is that the likelyhood of any other party getting into power in Hollyrood is in an independent Scotland...

More Nat pish, are they just going to pack up and leave the gravy train, just like UKIP have

[Tman]

Given that the sole reason for the existence of the SNP is Scottish independence, the cynically realistic must believe that the SNP were always going to find something/anything that could be viewed as "materially affecting" Scotland in some way after the original No vote, and use it as a reason/excuse to call for another indyref. Apart from that, the EU referendum was about the UK in or out of the EU, and the vote was out. Wee Jimmy's continued cry of "Scotland voted to stay in" is more cynical manipulation of statistics; other areas (London, the West Country etc) also voted to stay in, but as we're all one (UK) nation there's no desire to break down the nation into areas that wanted in and those that wanted out and act accordingly...unless you're Wee Jimmy of course.
The only real surprise was how short the timespan since the last Indyref, but then as Wee Jimmy is almost certainly going to find out to her (political) cost, politics is a long game and things never change overnight.
Now she's laid her one and only card and her bluff has been called, it's going to be a long road for her and the SNP for another two years or so, and by then, (even if the EU is still recognisably in the same form as today, after the various continental elections will have forced changes of policy, if not actual changes in political parties in control) the landscape could be very different.
Scotland is now a one-party state, so what happens when that one party falls out of favour with the electorate partly due to circumstances it has no control over?
Political turmoil by the sounds of it, although Labour could well be on the up again by then.

[simply_the_best]

Nail on head Tman, you'd be surprised how well the Scottish Conservatives are doing, Ruth Davidson is doing a sterling job for them and if she had been in charge of Labour they'd be doing a lot better.

10 Years of the Nats in charge up here and all they have done is bang on about Independence, some people are finally waking up to the fact that they have been horrendous, they don't want devolution to work, not in their interests and the mess they have made of running things up here shows that, this is their last desperate throw of the dice to get Indy.