We need an alternative union

[fishtank]

In addition why would the members not want the CWU to be on one hand opposing the sell off whilst ensuring that any sell off will mean our terms and conditions are protected.

How do you do that exactly without double dealing?
If RM or the Government were to say members can have a 25% stake in the company and the union can have a seat on the board but in return we want the CWU to lay off on the old "fighting privatisation" front where do you think the priorities would lie.
The union is completely compromised over this,the privatisation fight is a sham.
You know it,i know it and despite HQ's assumption that the membership is as thick as s**t...most of them know it as well.
HQ talks the talk but talk is cheap...and plentiful in this union.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I don't think we need an alternative Union - we need an alternative approach - how about the Norwegian model as a starter. http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 40&t=44774" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whilst I appreciate what the Union has done in the past, it becomes wearing that when people question the Unions motives, the Monty Python Sketch is trotted out.

Yes the foundations of a strong union are built on past victories, disputes and struggles, but if you don't engage the membership then your building the modern union on a deck of cards and even with a steel foundation, eventually the cards will fall.

My concern at the moment is the Union is coming across as "We know what's good for you" and is too inflexible in its approach to members. Perhaps, on this one issue, its weakest point is its Branch system, even though the branch officers are "meant" to be in direct contact with the working members, they are still one step removed from actually doing the work and being directly affected by an agreement. This is not a criticism as we do need the branch system to help members and to direct the Union in its industrial and political responsibilities.

However, we do need MORE direct contact between ordinary members and Union Officials at the top. Not between Top Officials and members but the other way round. At the moment all the direction is downwards, letters to branches, branch leaflets, AGMs. The only upwards passage of information is filtered through too many levels, and is too rigid in my opinion. If a member has an idea, he has to find a seconder, he has to write a motion and present it an AGM. It is then filtered through the branch, areas, PEC, Conference and Officers. This is a glacial approach which has its place but it does not engage ordinary members or those outside the circle of branch activists (I consider myself inside that circle).

So perhaps the Norwegian Model when

The members had prioritized their objectives

and

70% of members participated in the pre-negotiations debate and their feedback therefore provided clear guidelines for Postkom’s priorities in the negotiations

should be investigated by the PEC and reported on. Its perhaps 1 junket or chattering exercise even DVBUK would get behind.

[dvbuk55]

I'm with you on that motion tbt. We don't need an alternative we need THIS union to work FOR the members. God alone knows where the priorities set for the organisation come from. If you are in the "family" it seems that whatever you suggest or agree wit is tohtally accepted - then you get down to the poor cousins who are handed down the decisions from on high. What happens now is "these are your priorities", whereas they are not the shop floor priorities at all.

The priorities should be:

Better pay and conditions
Stop bullying and harassment
Sort out BT 2010

not necessarily in that order. When you are stroking the dogs ego and agreeing with everything it does it must be pretty hard to smack it on the snout when it bites a member of the family.

As you say tbt, we are where we are because of the stance of the union in the distant past but given the recent history where will it be 25 years from now.

[BELIAL]

Confusing is it not. Seems like the times have changed and the sands have shifted, and everything you once held true, as a time honored tradition and taken for granted fact, about union ethos and morals is now old hat.
The stalwarts will be used to hang us and you adapt or perish. Not much hope in clinging on to glorious victories past when the ground has been whipped from under your feet

[Martin Walsh]

TBT the devils always in the detail. Norway has a population of 5 million. In 1994 Norway Post Office employed 30 000 postal workers , the figure today stands at 20 000. The Main Postal Union has a partnership deal with the Post Office in Norway. it's allows for joint meetings and consultation something most of us would not care for over here.

Now I think the CWU has a problem , whilst it was the correct decision in 1992 to amalgamate Branch's based on Post Code boundaries , it is a fact that some Branch's are too big and too remote from some Offices. Some Branch's cover massive geographical boundaries for example North Lancs and Cumbria is one along with South East No 5. The danger is some Branch's become power bases for a particular city within a Branch or even a particular office be that a mail centre or militant delivery office. Other less problematic offices sometimes get over looked as officials and reps deal with the ones raising issues.

on top of that we have mail centre closures and the fall out from that on the Branch structure. Not many on here probably realise the chaos and internal arguments which have happened within the Warrington Mail Centre. As a result of the North West Mail Centre Review Liverpool , Crewe and Rochdale mail centres moved into Warrignton but unlike other mail centre closures the members did not become members of the Branch which is based in Warrington but have kept their excisting Branch membership. The internal battle has still to be resolve but now we have got the bizarre state of affairs where 4 different Branch's are representing members in Warrington Mail Centre.

We do need to restructure we do need to ensure that members have meeting and are properly consulted on issues. How do you decide what the priories are , unlike Norway you will have to consult not 20 000 staff but120 000 members. Let's be clear I would hazard a guess that offices the country have different priorities dependent on their starting point.

I along with many other love speaking to members at meetings but equally I can go different offices where overtime will a priority in one and in another they don't want the overtime and can't cover it.

But let's be honest the way we consult is reasonable good , when we got the Business and Transformation Agreement , there was a 2 day briefing of all officials and Branch's , there was then a series of roadshows where ever CWU local rep was invited to the meeting , Branch's were encouraged to hold members meeting where National Officers and PEC members attended and Branch's then were encourage to make their Branch Recommendations and then every member had a vote.

Could we do better , yes but let's not ignore the fact that the final decision should always rest with the members and there are plenty of decisions over the years where I have not like what the members have said but that's the rule of democracy.

[Cut Off King]

Well, structures, branches, local reps....It doesn't matter.

The FACT is that the CWU isn't delivering for the ordinary member anymore ( especially in D.O.'s )

The CWU used to work for its members, now its just managing decline and hope's it'll get a seat on the board.

[BELIAL]

the final decision should always rest with the members and there are plenty of decisions over the years where I have not like what the members have said but that's the rule of democracy.

Me too , and nothing personal ,but how does this "democracy" work when the membership is excluded? I would have thought being informed of the date and venue of the agm was essential?

[Martin Walsh]

Well, structures, branches, local reps....It doesn't matter.

The FACT is that the CWU isn't delivering for the ordinary member anymore ( especially in D.O.'s )

The CWU used to work for its members, now its just managing decline and hope's it'll get a seat on the board.

So members have not recieved the 3.5 % pay rise double the rate of the average pay increase and most public sectors industries are on a pay freeze. The CWU did not play a major role in securing state aid and ensuring some of the assets are protected for our future pensions whilst obtaining a better than crown guarantee for our past service.

So the CWU did not agree a revison process which has stalled and frustrated Royal Mail in terms of delivery revisons. Most on here thought it would be a disaster but the reality is that whilst a number of revisons have failed and I unlike most on here tried to resuce them by submitting a motion to annual conference instructing the PEC to resolve these , it was defeated as some reps from these offices got up including The Brighton rep who said the just 6 loops were failing and these were being resolved but Royal Mail wanted to tarnish the revison as it had not produced the savings and the office had better attendance patterns.

Now Cut of king what do you want , do you want to finish early , drive your car cause no union is going to protect those things as we did in the past. Most on here predictable the end of the CWU but in fact the CWU only lost 4000 members last year across the telecoms and postal industry hardly a union in crisis or a union which has lost the membership.

Does the CWU need to listen more yes , and does the CWU need to change yes , but the CWU needs to listen face to face with the members not on the back of just this board where no one knows the truth from fiction as we do not know each other.

[Martin Walsh]

the final decision should always rest with the members and there are plenty of decisions over the years where I have not like what the members have said but that's the rule of democracy.

Me too , and nothing personal ,but how does this "democracy" work when the membership is excluded? I would have thought being informed of the date and venue of the agm was essential?

Belial I would not defend that at all. Your Branch must be accountable to the members within its boundaries and if it's not it but be reported to CWU HQs and forced to be accountable.

[fishtank]

Does the CWU need to listen more yes , and does the CWU need to change yes , but the CWU needs to listen face to face with the members not on the back of just this board where no one knows the truth from fiction as we do not know each other.

There should be a post revision member's survey done in every unit.
It should be free from interference from managers,reps and branch.
Only the members interpretation of whether the revision is working or not has any validity.
Moya,the Brighton rep,branches,Bob Gibson,me,you and the rest of the board are all entitled to our opinion but at the end of the day we don't have to live with it...the members in these units do.
Why is HQ so frightened of asking those who really matter whether their revision is working?

[clashcityrocker]

Does the CWU need to listen more yes , and does the CWU need to change yes , but the CWU needs to listen face to face with the members not on the back of just this board where no one knows the truth from fiction as we do not know each other.

There should be a post revision member's survey done in every unit.
It should be free from interference from managers,reps and branch.
Only the members interpretation of whether the revision is working or not has any validity.
Moya,the Brighton rep,branches,Bob Gibson,me,you and the rest of the board are all entitled to our opinion but at the end of the day we don't have to live with it...the members in these units do.
Why is HQ so frightened of asking those who really matter whether their revision is working?

Who decides if the revision is working or not?
Postie A is getting 25 hours overtime/week doing other's cut-offs - for him the revision is brilliant.
Postie B is in an office that has introduced hybrid duties and he has lost 10 hours SA/week. For him the revision is a disaster.
Postie C is used to getting home an hour early every day. Now he has to work to his time. Disaster.

[fishtank]

Who decides if the revision is working or not?
Postie A is getting 25 hours overtime/week doing other's cut-offs - for him the revision is brilliant.
Postie B is in an office that has introduced hybrid duties and he has lost 10 hours SA/week. For him the revision is a disaster.
Postie C is used to getting home an hour early every day. Now he has to work to his time. Disaster.

I don't envisage the survey to be as simplistic as "how are you feeling today?"

Questions like..
Were the members involved in the revision?
Did the members get to vote on the revision?
Were the aspirations of 1in4 Saturdays met?
Are the delivery methods being used?
Are the walks achievable during model week traffic?
Are management putting undue pressure on members to complete?
Has the SWW been achieved and lump sums been paid?
etc,etc

[Cut Off King]

Well, structures, branches, local reps....It doesn't matter.

The FACT is that the CWU isn't delivering for the ordinary member anymore ( especially in D.O.'s )

The CWU used to work for its members, now its just managing decline and hope's it'll get a seat on the board.

So members have not recieved the 3.5 % pay rise double the rate of the average pay increase and most public sectors industries are on a pay freeze. The CWU did not play a major role in securing state aid and ensuring some of the assets are protected for our future pensions whilst obtaining a better than crown guarantee for our past service.

So the CWU did not agree a revison process which has stalled and frustrated Royal Mail in terms of delivery revisons. Most on here thought it would be a disaster but the reality is that whilst a number of revisons have failed and I unlike most on here tried to resuce them by submitting a motion to annual conference instructing the PEC to resolve these , it was defeated as some reps from these offices got up including The Brighton rep who said the just 6 loops were failing and these were being resolved but Royal Mail wanted to tarnish the revison as it had not produced the savings and the office had better attendance patterns.

Now Cut of king what do you want , do you want to finish early , drive your car cause no union is going to protect those things as we did in the past. Most on here predictable the end of the CWU but in fact the CWU only lost 4000 members last year across the telecoms and postal industry hardly a union in crisis or a union which has lost the membership.

Does the CWU need to listen more yes , and does the CWU need to change yes , but the CWU needs to listen face to face with the members not on the back of just this board where no one knows the truth from fiction as we do not know each other.

* PAY RISE - the payrise was a 3 year deal with below inflation rises for ALL 3 years

* PENSIONS - the deal over pensions is a farse, the CWU has helped the GOV. get its hands on the £28bn of assets, sell them now and spend OUR monies, leaving a future administration to worry about how to pay back the £36bn. now owed to the RM pension plan. Whats to stop a future goverment declaring that the plan is unafordable, and downgrading the pension plan. If the CWU had not "De-coupled" the pensions issue from the negotiations in the past, we wouldn't be in this situation now, would we.

*REVISIONS - ask most ordinary members what they think about the revision process and the duties that they end up with, most will reply in an unfavourable fashion.

*NO - I don't start nor finish early & I have NEVER used my car for RM

*CWU MEMBERSHIP - Most members don't have any faith in the CWU getting a good deal anymore, they use membership as an insurance policy aginst being dragged into the managers office on a petty matter.

*This BOARD - I believe the VAST majority of post about what is happening in their units are true, and this forum is a good way of funneling views from distant units into the CWU leadership, because using the official channels of comunication within the CWU allows unpaletable views of the situation on the "shop floor" to be ignored, and the preferred "truth" to be accepted.

[fishtank]

* PAY RISE - the payrise was a 3 year deal with below inflation rises for ALL 3 years

* PENSIONS - the deal over pensions is a farse, the CWU has helped the GOV. get its hands on the £28bn of assets, sell them now and spend OUR monies, leaving a future administration to worry about how to pay back the £36bn. now owed to the RM pension plan. Whats to stop a future goverment declaring that the plan is unafordable, and downgrading the pension plan. If the CWU had not "De-coupled" the pensions issue from the negotiations in the past, we wouldn't be in this situation now, would we.

*REVISIONS - ask most ordinary members what they think about the revision process and the duties that they end up with, most will reply in an unfavourable fashion.

*NO - I don't start nor finish early & I have NEVER used my car for RM

*CWU MEMBERSHIP - Most members don't have any faith in the CWU getting a good deal anymore, they use membership as an insurance policy aginst being dragged into the managers office on a petty matter.

*This BOARD - I believe the VAST majority of post about what is happening in their units are true, and this forum is a good way of funneling views from distant units into the CWU leadership, because using the official channels of comunication within the CWU allows unpaletable views of the situation on the "shop floor" to be ignored, and the preferred "truth" to be accepted.

Sadly you can't really argue on whether that's the average member's perception of the situation as it is right now.
Whether it's 100% fair on the CWU or whether it's ignoring past victories is neither here nor there.
The membership have lost the will to fight anything other than local issues...even that's a push...but that's fine because HQ lost the will to fight a long time ago.
Disagreements have gone down and HQ,in it's infinite wisdom sees this as a positive,i see it as a symptom of apathy and distrust.
No-one is complaining so everything must be fine....dream on.
I feel sorry for decent hard-working local reps.

[BELIAL]

the final decision should always rest with the members and there are plenty of decisions over the years where I have not like what the members have said but that's the rule of democracy.

Me too , and nothing personal ,but how does this "democracy" work when the membership is excluded? I would have thought being informed of the date and venue of the agm was essential?

Belial I would not defend that at all. Your Branch must be accountable to the members within its boundaries and if it's not it but be reported to CWU HQs and forced to be accountable.

I never thought you would defend it,who could ?Just to put you in the picture, CWU HQ have been contacted before and guess what ,they kindly forwarded the query back to area I'll try again

You can see why some folks might become slightly jaded with our present set up, and how does a branch get away with that in the first place?