PAIN IN THE HOLIDAY ENTITLEMENT

[woofwoof]

POL has written to the Union stating that the continued use of seniority for annual leave signings could expose them to claims of unlawful discrimination.

That argument was rejected by my local branch, on the grounds that seniority is based on length of service, not age. Our annual leave is still picked using seniority. It is not the case that a younger person is automatically discriminated against just because they are young. A person can be senior to someone who is actually older than him/her (by having joined Royal Mail before the older person did), so don't let POL kid you that seniority = age discrimination.

Their letter to the CWU was another example of RM trying to put the frighteners onto the union in a desperate attempt to get them to abandon seniority, a long-held ambition of Royal Mail's, just like monthly pay for all staff.

have u any info on that i can shove in the managers face m8 would love that

[kingsmoor]

AFAIK all leave arrangements are agreed locally with the Union so again a good reason to join as if you don't agree you will need to table a motion at an AGM, EGM or branch meeting and get enough support to change it. Ain't democracy good.

again you know im no uniom man and heres another prime example..what the fooks it got to do with the union when anybody picks holiday

[kingsmoor]

does this mean next year i shall be first?.......
cos im not getting that impression at work
this sysytem suits no one except the long service guys
just because someone been doing the job 30years or 6 months more,why should they get first pick there already thanked with more holiday
just 4 miles down the road at langport there on first cum first served

Kingsmoor thats interesting that you feel because someone was in the job before you they should not get to pick first. So if you happen to be first in line for some bargain or tickets etc- and i walk up out of the blue at the last minuet you will have no problem with me going in front of you. Or as i suspect will you say "Oy mate do you mind i was here first".

there is no queue we are all equal getting the same wages and doing the same job,that was abit of a silly argument

[kingsmoor]

today i had to pick three weeks holiday for next holiday year i didnt have a freaking clue when holidays are when my sons taking exams ,not an clue...

its very simple first come first serve ..nobody but nobody rushes in first of january and books all there holiday
in my experiance people drift in book a day here day there maybe a week here week there
if i see a weeks holiday dead cheap deal ill try a book next day if its fine ill book holiday if its not then i cant have it...
in every other job ive done never have i seen such nonsense

[kingsmoor]

last thing for now,hope you all know that from 1st april leagl minium holiday entitlement for all workers working 5 day week is 24days

[curly1975]

Che-quevara and curly1975: neither of you have said what happens in your 'alternative methods' of allocation when a new entrant joins your office, or someone transfers-in from another office. Where in the pecking-order do you put such individuals, when their first full leave pick comes around ?

If it's at the top, how do you justify it ? And why should they get first preference ??
If it's at the bottom, because they're new, how do you justify that to the individual concerned (irrespective of whether they've got 30 years service OR 3 weeks service) when you're both so opposed to any sort of seniority ??
If it's somewhere else, what criteria are you using to select exactly where in the pecking order you place them ?? And how do you explain to the person directly below them in the list why they won't now get the holiday dates they were expecting after the rubbish dates they got the previous year ??

Seniority is no more or less fair than any other system. But it's easy to understand and isn't fraught with all the difficulties I have touched on in the above

Maybe the criteria for the groups can be worked out via an agreement between management, staff and CWU.

SO how do you justify the use of seniority when a new starter is told that he may not get to have a family holiday with his wife and kids for maybe the next 10 years just because people who are at the top of a seniority list are given some divine right to have first choice every year and he is left with what nobody else wants?

[DGP1]

I can't really see the problem with holidays, I've no idea where I am on the list (and the same goes for the manager) but I always get my 6weeks and I then book any holidays to suit those dates

[Carnoustie]

Maybe the criteria for the groups can be worked out via an agreement between management, staff and CWU.

SO how do you justify the use of seniority when a new starter is told that he may not get to have a family holiday with his wife and kids for maybe the next 10 years just because people who are at the top of a seniority list are given some divine right to have first choice every year and he is left with what nobody else wants?

When you go for an interview for a job, and are successful in being offered employment, you decide whether you are going to accept the terms and conditions of the job. If the pay, pension, and leave arrangements are to your liking, you accept the job. If they're not, you don't. Once you've accepted the job, however, it's no use whining about any of those things not being to your liking (unless the employer tries to change them for the worse, which is why you join the union). You have accepted the job on those terms, including the arrangements for allocating leave !

There has to be a method of allocating leave. Seniority is, as I concede, as unfair as any other method, but how it works is easy to understand and easy to administer. Why should the person who's suffered crap holiday dates and then, after 10 years, finally gets their pick of the dates, now suddenly lose a hard-earned benefit ?

Macfan says that in their 'group of 10' arrangement, new starters or transfers, go to the bottom of the list.
WHY ?
THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT HAPPENS UNDER A SENIORITY SYSTEM !!!

[smokerjim]

Right, I'm not saying anything new - but I'm not the sort to refuse the oportunity to gob off

I have 18 months, yes months seniority ( ergo s**t leave dates ), but I don't mind.....I'm still a new boy in town ( just like the half dozen that have joined in the last few months ). However, once I've put the time in, of maybe 10 years, maybe more, maybe less, I will get the dates I want - because the Service, the managers & my colleagues should recognise I have spent that amount of continuous time working for the Service, so it can be classed as a loyalty bonus, just as much as getting extra days or weeks leave after "X" amount of years of service.....or are you saying everybody should only get the legal minimum no matter how long you have worked for the Service?

On a more practical matter, if you have a problem with not getting leave during school holidays, why not ask to swap with a childless colleague? The benefits for them are much better - for one thing ( as has been mentioned earlier ) there are no screaming hyperactive little brats hogging the beach intensifying their hangovers, and for another, the prices for a holiday away drop dramatically before mid June & after mid September - ergo, more beer tokns for the bar!

Granted, that is not guarenteed, but if you keep your gob shut about "unfair seniority", it ought to keep you going until all you geniuses come up with a simpler, fairer all singing & dancing better system

[apple]

the diff with seniority and the group 10 arrangement is that you go up the list by ten every year and the top ten go to the bottom, so you move around and are not stuck at the bottom,sorry if i never explained that right
seniority as i understand it, when you get to the top you will always be at the top ye?


new starters go to the bottom of the list as we are usually in the middle of the pick or it's been done etc, when ever they join, they will be moved up the list with there 10 they will not be permanently at the bottom


this gives everyone the chance of a good pick over time and i think it is a fair arrangement
so it's not the same as seniority, please don't shout, just have a honest exchange of views

have said before, that seniority is not to be used in the hol pick it is in some agreement i have seen, so how come it's still happening?

[curly1975]

Maybe the criteria for the groups can be worked out via an agreement between management, staff and CWU.

SO how do you justify the use of seniority when a new starter is told that he may not get to have a family holiday with his wife and kids for maybe the next 10 years just because people who are at the top of a seniority list are given some divine right to have first choice every year and he is left with what nobody else wants?

When you go for an interview for a job, and are successful in being offered employment, you decide whether you are going to accept the terms and conditions of the job. If the pay, pension, and leave arrangements are to your liking, you accept the job. If they're not, you don't. Once you've accepted the job, however, it's no use whining about any of those things not being to your liking (unless the employer tries to change them for the worse, which is why you join the union). You have accepted the job on those terms, including the arrangements for allocating leave !

There has to be a method of allocating leave. Seniority is, as I concede, as unfair as any other method, but how it works is easy to understand and easy to administer. Why should the person who's suffered crap holiday dates and then, after 10 years, finally gets their pick of the dates, now suddenly lose a hard-earned benefit ?

Macfan says that in their 'group of 10' arrangement, new starters or transfers, go to the bottom of the list.
WHY ?
THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT HAPPENS UNDER A SENIORITY SYSTEM !!!

You must know some very lucky people who can pick and choose if they want to take a job or not!

When i started RM part time staff did not get paid the same hourly rate as full time staff. Just because something in a workplace happens or becomes historical practise does not make it right.

You state in your post that you concede Seniority as being unfair yet you and so many others just seem to shrug your shoulders and accept it.

Why?

Why don't we try to change what so many believe to be an out of date and unfair practise?

"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future".

[kingsmoor]

Maybe the criteria for the groups can be worked out via an agreement between management, staff and CWU.

SO how do you justify the use of seniority when a new starter is told that he may not get to have a family holiday with his wife and kids for maybe the next 10 years just because people who are at the top of a seniority list are given some divine right to have first choice every year and he is left with what nobody else wants?

When you go for an interview for a job, and are successful in being offered employment, you decide whether you are going to accept the terms and conditions of the job. If the pay, pension, and leave arrangements are to your liking, you accept the job. If they're not, you don't. Once you've accepted the job, however, it's no use whining about any of those things not being to your liking (unless the employer tries to change them for the worse, which is why you join the union). You have accepted the job on those terms, including the arrangements for allocating leave !

There has to be a method of allocating leave. Seniority is, as I concede, as unfair as any other method, but how it works is easy to understand and easy to administer. Why should the person who's suffered crap holiday dates and then, after 10 years, finally gets their pick of the dates, now suddenly lose a hard-earned benefit ?

Macfan says that in their 'group of 10' arrangement, new starters or transfers, go to the bottom of the list.
WHY ?
THAT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHAT HAPPENS UNDER A SENIORITY SYSTEM !!!

strange argument for accepting it...did they really tell you during your interview how they pick holidays,or did they just say you can have x amount...
still nobody seems to know what its got to do with the union in the first place...they may argue for the amount but when people take it....weird...
we have a relief manager at present ,i asked her if its the same everywhere she said no this is the only one that she goes to that work seniority and she thought it was stopped as a practise and is going to have a word with our ususal manager when she gets back off her holls
strangley in our office,it only being small its only the old guard that want to keep it....
as for the reply that seggest we swap with a collegue,if they booked it in the first place they had better actually want it..

[TrueBlueTerrier]

AFAIK all leave arrangements are agreed locally with the Union so again a good reason to join as if you don't agree you will need to table a motion at an AGM, EGM or branch meeting and get enough support to change it. Ain't democracy good.

again you know im no uniom man and heres another prime example..what the fooks it got to do with the union when anybody picks holiday

The unions main job is to represent the majority decisions made by its members (either locally or nationally) therefore if the Union is not involved it won't be long before you get told when to take your holiday rather than at least have a semblance of choice. Its an imperfect system best at present it is the fairest anyone has come up with to date.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

What happens at our place is a combination of the 2. Everyone fills in their first choice of holidays and then the mangers puts list up of these weeks chosen. If their is a clash and too many are off on 1 week he tells those affected and leaves if for 2 weeks for them to sort it out between themselves. If they can't sort it out between each other, then and only then does seniority kick in, and I think this is the fairer system.

Also an unwritten rule on my section is that those without families avoid taking a long break around the the school holidays, but do try to get at least one week off during summer. Me personally I do not take a summer break as the prices are too high around that time, also with elderly parents that need to be cared for I can't go away for long anyway.

[kingsmoor]

AFAIK all leave arrangements are agreed locally with the Union so again a good reason to join as if you don't agree you will need to table a motion at an AGM, EGM or branch meeting and get enough support to change it. Ain't democracy good.

again you know im no uniom man and heres another prime example..what the fooks it got to do with the union when anybody picks holiday

The unions main job is to represent the majority decisions made by its members (either locally or nationally) therefore if the Union is not involved it won't be long before you get told when to take your holiday rather than at least have a semblance of choice. Its an imperfect system best at present it is the fairest anyone has come up with to date.

well i think weve come full circle instead of discriminating against union members its now against non union members.i dont wont the union telling me when to take my holiday but not being a union member i can do nothing about it but thats another thread for another time