GHOST OVERTIME AND MANAGERS

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 25 Jan 2019, 16:28

The Postman wrote: it’s not fraudulent, it’s time and a half.

Can you show me the national agreement that states some people can be paid time and a half for their overtime?

number one · Post by **number one** » 25 Jan 2019, 17:26

clashcityrocker wrote:
The Postman wrote: it’s not fraudulent, it’s time and a half.
Can you show me the national agreement that states some people can be paid time and a half for their overtime?

It will come under “business needs to maintain the USO”

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 25 Jan 2019, 19:04

number one wrote:
clashcityrocker wrote:
The Postman wrote: it’s not fraudulent, it’s time and a half.
Can you show me the national agreement that states some people can be paid time and a half for their overtime?
It will come under “business needs to maintain the USO”

Where exactly is that?

Post by **aiden01** » 25 Jan 2019, 23:28

number one wrote:
clashcityrocker wrote:
The Postman wrote: it’s not fraudulent, it’s time and a half.
Can you show me the national agreement that states some people can be paid time and a half for their overtime?
It will come under “business needs to maintain the USO”

WTF DOES THAT MEAN?????

LaggyBand · Post by **LaggyBand** » 26 Jan 2019, 04:13

The Postman wrote:It depends on how you look at it. Claiming for hours you don’t work is fraudulent. If your manager says he’ll give you 3 hours and it only takes you 2, it’s not fraudulent, it’s time and a half. Unless you then sign that you done 3 hours work, then it becomes fraudulent.

The 552 has you doing that last bit.

Chalky13 · Post by **Chalky13** » 26 Jan 2019, 05:33

So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 26 Jan 2019, 11:20

Chalky13 wrote:So surely if you are offered 1hr to do some extra work and it takes you 15mins that’s not fraud, that’s the management issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not fraud either, if you do your duty and the said overtime and finish at 2pm, even if paid til 3:30.
It’s been offered and you’ve done it properly, just quicker than expected. It’s efficiency of postman over inefficient management.

However, what I would say is fraud is this. You have your duty, you complete it and you complete it early. Then sit out or go home. Then come back at 3 and claim overtime of 30mins every day.
That’s fraud, because you’re claiming for time you haven’t worked, that hasn’t been offered by a manager. That’s the difference. You’re doing it off your own back.

I would agree with you if it was just Royal Mail that decided what was fraud and what isn't, but they don't.

If IB pushed the issue, or RM HQ invoked the work all your paid hours agreement or even a regional manager just wanted to look at the ot hours paid and worked then I think a lot of people would be under the microscope.

Why though. Fairly simple, we are not paid a piece rate like DPD, Amazon etc, where when you have finished you go home. We work a set number of contract hours and we should work those house. Now if you do overtime, in RM posties generally come to an "unofficial" agreement with the manager, which is all fine and dandy. However, if you don't work the hours (but do the work) and all you have is an unofficial arrangement with the manager are you safe.

In my opinion no. The fact that you came to an arrangement with your manager, which is against the national agreements, won't protect you from a legal or disciplinary charge of fraud, all it will do is put 2 of you in the frame, you and your manager.

However, if you know the risks, and yes they are very small, then fill your boots, just don't do it blindly and think you are safe as houses. To think you are would be naive, after all, who doesn't think the average manager in Royal Mail won't throw you under the bus if it helps them.

Chalky13 · Post by **Chalky13** » 26 Jan 2019, 12:51

Fair points.

leolion855 · Post by **leolion855** » 26 Jan 2019, 13:11

what if, you do a deal for 3 hours ot, get it done in 1.5 but dont sign the ot sheet but get paid the 3 hrs anyway, would that be a management/payment balls up that you didnt spot if it came to it.

Post by **aiden01** » 26 Jan 2019, 13:31

leolion855 wrote:what if, you do a deal for 3 hours ot, get it done in 1.5 but dont sign the ot sheet but get paid the 3 hrs anyway, would that be a management/payment balls up that you didnt spot if it came to it.

You wont get paid if you dont sign ot sheet.

leolion855 · Post by **leolion855** » 26 Jan 2019, 13:36

aiden01 wrote:
leolion855 wrote:what if, you do a deal for 3 hours ot, get it done in 1.5 but dont sign the ot sheet but get paid the 3 hrs anyway, would that be a management/payment balls up that you didnt spot if it came to it.
You wont get paid if you dont sign ot sheet.

i always have

Post by **aiden01** » 26 Jan 2019, 14:17

leolion855 wrote:
aiden01 wrote:
leolion855 wrote:what if, you do a deal for 3 hours ot, get it done in 1.5 but dont sign the ot sheet but get paid the 3 hrs anyway, would that be a management/payment balls up that you didnt spot if it came to it.
You wont get paid if you dont sign ot sheet.
i always have

Surprised at that because if you dont sign on normally you won't be paid.

LaggyBand · Post by **LaggyBand** » 26 Jan 2019, 14:27

The bottom line is, what your gaffer says to get you to do some OT at the time, is not the same as what you are saying when you sign the 552.

What the gaffer said floated about in the air for a bit and was gone. The 552 is on paper.

The heat will either land on the manager, the postie, or both.

Now is your gaffer going to back you up, and say, “yeah I told him RM are willing to pay him 4 hours despite what it actually takes, and despite the fact that I don’t have the authority to make that deal, and yeah right now I’m putting all the heat on myself, I’m well clever”

Or will he say “look at the 552 - I assumed he’d actually worked the hours he’s claimed for”.

Always approach every day in RM as if you are a prosecuting lawyer trying to catch yourself out. It’s the safest way.

Celgar · Post by **Celgar** » 26 Jan 2019, 17:01

clashcityrocker wrote:
The Postman wrote: it’s not fraudulent, it’s time and a half.
Can you show me the national agreement that states some people can be paid time and a half for their overtime?

At one time some years ago, but I couldn't tell you when, we in RM along with most other workers would get paid time and a half routinely for overtime. I think in most workplaces nowadays this no longer exists. In RM the overtime works out to about five percent less than what you usually get paid per hour. This has resulted in a general reluctance to do overtime certainly in our DO.

Chalky13 · Post by **Chalky13** » 26 Jan 2019, 17:42

leolion855 wrote:
aiden01 wrote:
leolion855 wrote:what if, you do a deal for 3 hours ot, get it done in 1.5 but dont sign the ot sheet but get paid the 3 hrs anyway, would that be a management/payment balls up that you didnt spot if it came to it.
You wont get paid if you dont sign ot sheet.
i always have

I haven’t been paid if the 552 isn’t signed