Alleged Theft - Fact Findinf

[General Mannerheim]

It makes a nonsense of any claim that the security of the post is threatened if they let you work Fri and Sat after the fact.

I appreciate what you've said. However they've said that they thought I'd have a better explanation than I did on the Saturday, when I approached my mgr not them approaching me. Although I don't know if he'd planned to but I had seen a few times on the Sat morning and he never said anything.

I just don't understand why it's dragging on?
I've been suspended for almost a month now. I had my fact finding interview, my union rep has rung me to tell me they've viewed the CCTV and there was nothing untoward on there, but it could be another 2 weeks before anything.

Is this normal??!

Yes it is pretty normal as they like to mess with peoples lives and make them suffer as long as possible.

[Welshy26]

It makes a nonsense of any claim that the security of the post is threatened if they let you work Fri and Sat after the fact.

I appreciate what you've said. However they've said that they thought I'd have a better explanation than I did on the Saturday, when I approached my mgr not them approaching me. Although I don't know if he'd planned to but I had seen a few times on the Sat morning and he never said anything.

I just don't understand why it's dragging on?
I've been suspended for almost a month now. I had my fact finding interview, my union rep has rung me to tell me they've viewed the CCTV and there was nothing untoward on there, but it could be another 2 weeks before anything.

Is this normal??!

Yes it is pretty normal as they like to mess with peoples lives and make them suffer as long as possible.

Excellent

What is the next step after this? I sent back ALOT of amendments to the fact finding notes... Will they redraft them?

[Sir Henry]

Keep a copy of your requested amendments to check they've been included when/ if the notes come back. I have known instances when these notes haven't appeared until the day prior to a tribunal, so keep a record of your requests for them.

[Welshy26]

Keep a copy of your requested amendments to check they've been included when/ if the notes come back. I have known instances when these notes haven't appeared until the day prior to a tribunal, so keep a record of your requests for them.

I have done. I've kept all the corresponding documents etc

Who can dismiss me? A DOM?

Do you know what the next step is from here?

[General Mannerheim]

Keep a copy of your requested amendments to check they've been included when/ if the notes come back. I have known instances when these notes haven't appeared until the day prior to a tribunal, so keep a record of your requests for them.

I have done. I've kept all the corresponding documents etc

Who can dismiss me? A DOM?

Do you know what the next step is from here?

The manager who has done your fact finding will look at all the `evidence` and make a decision ,he will either decide that there is no case to answer,make a decision that he can deal with it informally(a ticking off for example) or that further action is needed and pass it on to a formal stage.

Oh and look at this in the new conduct guide booklet.
Example three
Sarah is a Royal Mail driver and has large number of parcels to deliver. She completed her round at 2.00 on Jan 6, returned to the Delivery Office, signed in the van keys and went home. The following day, a colleague finds a small parcel in the van and hands it to the Delivery Manager. The manager asks Sarah to a meeting in his office and asks for an explanation. Two days later, Sarah attends a fact finding meeting with the Delivery Manager. Following the fact finding meeting the manager concluded that although the parcel was delayed, it was not delayed intentionally. The Delivery manager considers the information raised in the fact finding, Sarah’s five years’ clear conduct record with the business and concludes that the case can be dealt with informally.
The Delivery Manager invites Sarah to an Informal Discussion meeting. Following the meeting, the case was closed and no further action required

[Welshy26]

Keep a copy of your requested amendments to check they've been included when/ if the notes come back. I have known instances when these notes haven't appeared until the day prior to a tribunal, so keep a record of your requests for them.

I have done. I've kept all the corresponding documents etc

Who can dismiss me? A DOM?

Do you know what the next step is from here?

The manager who has done your fact finding will look at all the `evidence` and make a decision ,he will either decide that there is no case to answer,make a decision that he can deal with it informally(a ticking off for example) or that further action is needed and pass it on to a formal stage.

Oh and look at this in the new conduct guide booklet.
Example three
Sarah is a Royal Mail driver and has large number of parcels to deliver. She completed her round at 2.00 on Jan 6, returned to the Delivery Office, signed in the van keys and went home. The following day, a colleague finds a small parcel in the van and hands it to the Delivery Manager. The manager asks Sarah to a meeting in his office and asks for an explanation. Two days later, Sarah attends a fact finding meeting with the Delivery Manager. Following the fact finding meeting the manager concluded that although the parcel was delayed, it was not delayed intentionally. The Delivery manager considers the information raised in the fact finding, Sarah’s five years’ clear conduct record with the business and concludes that the case can be dealt with informally.
The Delivery Manager invites Sarah to an Informal Discussion meeting. Following the meeting, the case was closed and no further action required

Oh, wow. That's interesting. However the problem I have is that the box that was found was empty with the contents missing - so it's not delay of mail they're accusing me of, it's theft

The assistant DOM did the fact finding.

[Welshy26]

Keep a copy of your requested amendments to check they've been included when/ if the notes come back. I have known instances when these notes haven't appeared until the day prior to a tribunal, so keep a record of your requests for them.

I have done. I've kept all the corresponding documents etc

Who can dismiss me? A DOM?

Do you know what the next step is from here?

The manager who has done your fact finding will look at all the `evidence` and make a decision ,he will either decide that there is no case to answer,make a decision that he can deal with it informally(a ticking off for example) or that further action is needed and pass it on to a formal stage.

Oh and look at this in the new conduct guide booklet.
Example three
Sarah is a Royal Mail driver and has large number of parcels to deliver. She completed her round at 2.00 on Jan 6, returned to the Delivery Office, signed in the van keys and went home. The following day, a colleague finds a small parcel in the van and hands it to the Delivery Manager. The manager asks Sarah to a meeting in his office and asks for an explanation. Two days later, Sarah attends a fact finding meeting with the Delivery Manager. Following the fact finding meeting the manager concluded that although the parcel was delayed, it was not delayed intentionally. The Delivery manager considers the information raised in the fact finding, Sarah’s five years’ clear conduct record with the business and concludes that the case can be dealt with informally.
The Delivery Manager invites Sarah to an Informal Discussion meeting. Following the meeting, the case was closed and no further action required

Oh, wow. That's interesting. However the problem I have is that the box that was found was empty with the contents missing - so it's not delay of mail they're accusing me of, it's theft

The assistant DOM did the fact finding.

Still waiting

[Welshy26]

Still suspended.

Have my disciplinary hearing on Friday. Fearing the worst having been suspended this long

[dvbuk55]

Still suspended.

Have my disciplinary hearing on Friday. Fearing the worst having been suspended this long

Not necessarily a bad thing welshy, they may have been investigating thoroughly and still not come up with anything conclusive. I have known them to delay in the hope the employee gets fed up with waiting and resign. The fact you have stuck to it means they now have to make a decision. Good luck.

[Welshy26]

It's been passed to another DOM same level of authority from another branch.

I'm so worried. It's my livelihood, after 30 years.

[IcanthelpthewayIam]

It's been passed to another DOM same level of authority from another branch.

I'm so worried. It's my livelihood, after 30 years.

Have you been interviewed by IB? you would have been interviewed "under caution" by them? If not then they are currently not going down the theft route, if your dom was dismissal trained he could have made the decision the fact he hasn't in my opinion means it probably won't be a dismissal but maybe a suspended dismissal

[jetblack]

.. all that is needed for an employment tribunal win is that there was reasonable suspicion .... they do not need to prove anything

Where is the reasonable suspicion in this case ?

I have had many a birthday card received for delivery already opened - obviously opened somewhere further down the line by a scumbag, in the hope of finding cash - does this mean that were the DOM to visit our office and find such a letter/card in my possession (for delivery), then there would be "reasonable" grounds to dismiss me also ? If this were the case then I reckon a half of us could be dismissed pretty easily.

It wouldn't stand up in court.

And yes, I know we aren't dealing with a court of law - but a court and right and proper legal process remain the benchmark by which any employer, including RM, are very well advised to go by.

We have employment rights enshrined in statute - and managers are accountable if they are breached.

[dvbuk55]

.. all that is needed for an employment tribunal win is that there was reasonable suspicion .... they do not need to prove anything

Where is the reasonable suspicion in this case ?

I have had many a birthday card received for delivery already opened - obviously opened somewhere further down the line by a scumbag, in the hope of finding cash - does this mean that were the DOM to visit our office and find such a letter/card in my possession (for delivery), then there would be "reasonable" grounds to dismiss me also ? If this were the case then I reckon a half of us could be dismissed pretty easily.

It wouldn't stand up in court.

And yes, I know we aren't dealing with a court of law - but a court and right and proper legal process remain the benchmark by which any employer, including RM, are very well advised to go by.

We have employment rights enshrined in statute - and managers are accountable if they are breached.

I was once asked by a manager to check perstops at random and count the opened envelopes of whatever description, the ratio of cards to ordinary mail no longer sealed was in the order of 10 to 1

A lad next to me had left his pouch by his feet and a manager walked past and saw an opened envelope in it and he resigned though whether or not he was being checked and that was the final straw I couldn't say.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

We have employment rights enshrined in statute - and managers are accountable if they are breached.

Not always. http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 18&t=71519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dismissed, found not guilty at trial, subsequent Tribunal says dismissal unfair, Judge tells RM to reinstate, RM say they won't because would make managers job intolerable. The manager is still in the job.

[jetblack]

We have employment rights enshrined in statute - and managers are accountable if they are breached.

Not always. http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... 18&t=71519" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dismissed, found not guilty at trial, subsequent Tribunal says dismissal unfair, Judge tells RM to reinstate, RM say they won't because would make managers job intolerable. The manager is still in the job.

Just read that thread - shocking.

But as BustedFlush repeatedley says - where were the CWU on this ? A law is only a law if its enforceable - and industrial action is the great leveler.

It seems we don't do industrial action any more. Why is that ?


Cases like that of the OP - and that in the thread linked by TBT - are exactly what a trade union is for. If it doesn't fight for cases like this it isn't worth anything at all - its redundant.
It might be that the CWU doesn't feel it can rely on the backing of its members, should push come to shove. But one thing the recent election of Jeremy Corbyn should have showed to the union exec. is that its a bad idea to underestimate the grassroots anger at the way ordinary people are being shafted by the political and corporate elite in this country.
Its no use saying "Oh, but the law is against us" - we make the law. And a union makes/frames the law with the people power its able to leverage.

Managers are accountable - and they are accountable to us, the people who really run and manage Royal Mail.

If the Union top brass don't know this already, then they need to step aside and make way for those that do.