BOYCOTT OF COMPETITORS’ MAIL – LEGAL POSITION

[BingBong]

What a let down.

[clashcityrocker]

AND WHY CAN A CLOSED OFFER NOT BE REVEALED

Hans - you need to get out more.

[fishtank]

What a let down.

I fear that will be the position of a lot of members.

[nataddick]

Extract from Royal Mail's response to Ofcom statements dated 27 March 2013 :-

'We welcome Ofcom’s commitment to actively monitor all direct delivery market participants and track developments in the market and any prospective risks to the universal service. We also welcome the regulator’s acknowledgement it has the powers to act at any time if it sees the universal service under threat as a result of direct delivery competition and that it will undertake a market review by end 2015 at the latest. - See more at: http://www.royalmailgroup.com/royal-mai ... jgn9o.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Billy & Dave claim on 28 June 2013 we have seen Ofcom publicly commit to a firmer monitoring of the ongoing situation with a major review in 2015.

It seems to me that both parties are trying to claim credit for Ofcom's totally ineffective response to the issue which is at the root of the problem!

[Jynxx]

The pay offer was a closed offer which means it cannot be revealed unless the union accepts it. The pay offer was also dependent on the CWU agreeing to the pension change , accepting the sell off , agreeing to an agenda for growth , a new IR agreement , a new governance model and a range of other issues.

The PEC rejected the offer yesterday , and no doubt Royal Mail will release the offer in due course. The CWU have also called a policy forum / special conference for late next month on pensions and what to do next and the PEC agreed that we will be balloting the membership for strike action in September over pensions , pay and the fact that Royal Mail won't sign into a legally binding agreements on protection of our pay and conditions , that no work is outsourced , that no delivery routes are franchised , that all new recruits are on the same pay and conditions , MTSF to be extended , all our agreements to be maintained unless re negotiated and a range of other issues.

What is it with RM and their demands all the time, we'll give you a pay rise on this condition and that, i can image it would have been like the last one with stopping being paid D2D, as far as delivery staff are concerned we still haven't HAD a pay rise with what we lost in D2D payments, I can imagine the pay rise also having been if the 20 odd quid a week was stopped for a £5 a week pay rise.
Annoys me no end, we need the Union to turn round and say tell you what stick your idea's up your arse and we'll go into IA until you come along with a good pay deal without strings attached to it and an increase in overtime rates which are a joke, we need to point out that If RM are so sure all their plans will work and mails down etc then put their money where their mouth is and set a decent overtime rate cause as far as they are concerned we shouldn't be doing any so they shouldn't be worried about it....sorry rant over...or probably more to come at some point.

P.S I'm also waiting until we reach the end of this (eventually) and we get screwed over again as they won't backdate it to April.

[aiden01]

What a let down.

well said and when are the cwu going to tell everyone what dingo has written on here it is getting beyond a joke members asked to vote and then get told f..k all think many people may soon change their mind on how they vote in future.

[UnhappyGremlin]

Can't say I expected anything other than what has happened. The CWU has kind of let us down though. The ballot and it's results was built up by them, so naturally we'll all feel let down by this anti-climax.

The pay offer, I believe, was sealed by RM, and had the CWU publicised it contents, it would have been null and void. I fully expected that it would be rejected outright, as what little info they did give out about it went entirely against what the CWU had balloted us for.

Bring on the IA ballot. Everybody out.

[dvbuk55]

The grand old duke of York..................he marched them up to the top of the hill and he marched them down again ....and when they were only half way up they were neither up nor down.

Can we have an emoticon for a yawn please - what was the 4 questions again, oh yes, DSA - scratched, pay - more chatter about a sealed offer which actually we would have to be told what it was before we rejected it, pension - ah yes the great debate continues after the union managed to "decouple" it from a previous offer which if it hadn't been would have been rejected instead of accepted and of course the ballot on pensions didn't take place, privatisation - well it would have to be one hell of a campaign to deter it now.

[BernardBresslaw]

Can we have an emoticon for a yawn please - what was the 4 questions again, oh yes, DSA - scratched, pay - more chatter about a sealed offer which actually we would have to be told what it was before we rejected it, pension - ah yes the great debate continues after the union managed to "decouple" it from a previous offer which if it hadn't been would have been rejected instead of accepted and of course the ballot on pensions didn't take place, privatisation - well it would have to be one hell of a campaign to deter it now.

Spot on.

I've taken part in two instances of IA during my, relatively short, time with Royal Mail, and for what I would deem lesser reasons than what we were balloted on this time around. Why on earth does the union continue to bark, without biting?

[Martin Walsh]

Lets put things into perspective , Royal Mail was always going to take the union to court over the boycott. The fact that they did so soon after the union had declared the result was a surprise as it was a panic reaction. Royal Mail evidence to the court included a number of divisional reps and area reps quotes on circulars and at meetings. Royal Mail were also attempting to use the vote on non corporation to try and get the injunction.

It was never the agenda of the union to use the consultative ballot to take strike action or to instruct members to boycott the competitors mail. We always knew it would have to take a legal ballot to do this. The point of the consultation ballot was to engage the members on the issues and this has reconnected the membership. We now know every offices results and we know there is a lot more communications needed with the membership prior to a legal ballot.

With regards to an injunction , the initial court case is not about the facts of the case. Instead all an employer has to do is convince the judge that there is a threat from the union to break the law. An injunction is then put in place and an hearing is then set which is normally 8 months later. The threat and concern from the union was that the injunction would have stopped the union from balloting for strike action on anything. The union pays experienced barristers and lawyers to advise on such matters and would be foolish not to take their advice hence we have this agreement . The fact the union was never going to use the consultative ballot for striking means the agreement is immaterial as we will be setting a clear timetable for a strike action ballot within the next few days.

Look a formal closed pay offer has been rejected. The details will come out no doubt within the next few days but was a 3 years deal with each year assumed as above RPI with a reopener in year 2 &3 , there was a lump sum in year 1 as well. The deal was linked to a number of other issues which were not so much strings but chains. Now you would have rightly criticised the CWU if we accepted it after 99% of those 74% of the members who voted said they want a no strings pay deal.

The CWU will be informing Royal Mail of the rejection and what they want Royal Mail to agree some of issues I have already posted. The Union will also be writing to all members to explain the next steps. The union will be holding a special conference on 31st and 1st July to discuss pensions , save out Royal Mail and the timetable for the ballot and meetings with members.

The fight is on and the battle is not won or lost over the court injunction ballot.

[whatamess!!]

when is the special conference Dingo, you put the 31st and 1st of July, do you mean August?

[goinpostal]

Our meeting with national officers was last Autumn and they were talking about looking into the legal ins and outs of it then, and have repeated it without any conclusions regularly since. They certainly did say that we aimed to boycott mail, and the mailings i saw and our area rep's motivation was that that was what the cb was leading up to. Isn't the truth, which we don't need legal advisors to tell us, is that the boycott was never going to be legal and will never be legal because the USO isn't a trade dispute. Of course many of us will feel that's not the be all and end all but that's the situation regarding the law at least, its crystal clear in my eyes.

A boycott is unlikely to work if we ballot for something which is legal like the pensions and then boycott DSA mail, as our tactic short of a strike, because its not like a work to rule (ie to contract) - instead we're picking and choosing which parts to do. It will just lead to a lock out, so lets just ballot for strike action and skip the clever bits that just confuse everyone and aren't likely to work. We don't have time for that anymore, the Tories want to get privatisation done by October if possible.

Early Day Motions, weeks of action, petitions - as important as all that is to build solidarity, that's not going to stop privatisation. Only a sustained national strike will and they've pissed away several months playing about with an idea that wouldn't work.

What we can probably agree is that whatever is decided it has the least chance of success if they sit in Wimbledon like they did throughout the 2009 strike without lifting a finger to build it - after 2007 and 2009 most workers are completely cynical about the leadership. If they had used the last 7 months to get round the branches, hit the gates, show people they were for real, then maybe even a boycott could have been a possibility. As things are now to play around with the boycott idea i think is a complete distraction. Its not that they've got a clever strategy they're leading up to - this week's events show they don't have a strategy.

Dingo how about London and other branches that have called unofficial meetings in the past calling one (for instance in sept 2005?)? At the very least it would light a fire under the leadership and allow activists to meet up and begin to push for a clearer way forward.

Let's face it we need to strike to stop privatisation.

[dvbuk55]

Our meeting with national officers was last Autumn and they were talking about looking into the legal ins and outs of it then, and have repeated it without any conclusions regularly since. They certainly did say that we aimed to boycott mail, and the mailings i saw and our area rep's motivation was that that was what the cb was leading up to. Isn't the truth, which we don't need legal advisors to tell us, is that the boycott was never going to be legal and will never be legal because the USO isn't a trade dispute. Of course many of us will feel that's not the be all and end all but that's the situation regarding the law at least, its crystal clear in my eyes.

A boycott is unlikely to work if we ballot for something which is legal like the pensions and then boycott DSA mail, as our tactic short of a strike, because its not like a work to rule (ie to contract) - instead we're picking and choosing which parts to do. It will just lead to a lock out, so lets just ballot for strike action and skip the clever bits that just confuse everyone and aren't likely to work. We don't have time for that anymore, the Tories want to get privatisation done by October if possible.

Early Day Motions, weeks of action, petitions - as important as all that is to build solidarity, that's not going to stop privatisation. Only a sustained national strike will and they've pissed away several months playing about with an idea that wouldn't work.

What we can probably agree is that whatever is decided it has the least chance of success if they sit in Wimbledon like they did throughout the 2009 strike without lifting a finger to build it - after 2007 and 2009 most workers are completely cynical about the leadership. If they had used the last 7 months to get round the branches, hit the gates, show people they were for real, then maybe even a boycott could have been a possibility. As things are now to play around with the boycott idea i think is a complete distraction. Its not that they've got a clever strategy they're leading up to - this week's events show they don't have a strategy.

Dingo how about London and other branches that have called unofficial meetings in the past calling one (for instance in sept 2005?)? At the very least it would light a fire under the leadership and allow activists to meet up and begin to push for a clearer way forward.

Let's face it we need to strike against privatisation not whether our terms and conditions will be gauranteed for a couple of years after it.

Someone who at least sees the wood for the trees.

[Sharkeyes]

AND WHY CAN A CLOSED OFFER NOT BE REVEALED
its not up to billy and dave to accept anything it should be put to members to decide
UNLESS CWU DONT WANT THEIR MEMBERSHIP TO KNOW

"We ARE the UNION, not the nec/pec etc. Yes they are our elected representatives but the rank and file members are the UNION, YOU,ME AND THE CLEANER!
IT appears that the 'bluffing' and the behind the scenes tactics which favour the senior management by the way, are well under way. Regarding 'legal positions', IA ballots etc. let me cast your minds back to two decades ago when anti trade union legislation reared its ugly head, the last time the Tories ran riot. MAKE NO MISTAKE, WE ARE NOW ENGAGED IN AN INDUSTRIAL 'FIGHT' FOR SURVIVAL HERE. JUST LIKE THE MINERS AND THE DOCKERS, NOW THEY ARE COMING FOR US! WHILE I'M NOT GOING TO ADVOCATE 'TACTICS' IN PRINT ON HERE, WE, THE MEMBERSHIP ARE NOT STUPID, WEAK OR THICK TO FALL FOR THE PROPAGANA MACHINE AND THE THREATS OF ACTION AGAINST THE CWU! WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE EXCEPT YOUR PRIDE AND DIGNITY, THEN THE GLOVES COME OFF. WE KNOW WHAT TACTICS WILL BE USED TO FRIGHTEN YOUNGER MEMEBERS BUT WHAT IS NEEDED NOW IS TOUGH TALKING FROM THE NEC, NO CAPITULATION, NO SECRET BEHIND CLOSED DOOR DECISIONS, NO SURRENDER.
THIS IS THE BEGINING OF THE END IF WE GIVE IN! IT'S TIME ONCE AGAIN FOR 'US' TO LITERALLY HAVE OUR SAY WITH THE PUBLIC BEHIND US. IT'S OUR ROYAL MAIL, NOT THE GOVERNMENTS, NOT MOYA'S, NO THE EUROPEAN UNIONS TO 'LIBERALISE', IT'S 'ROYAL'! THAT MEANS 'FOR YOU AND ME', ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL! JUST LIKE THE ROYAL MARINES. Take no 's*%t Billy & Dave, this could either be the demise of more than just our jobs because the NHS AND THE FBU are next and yet, IT COULD BE YOURS AND OURS, FINEST HOUR!
'If a job is worth doing, then it's worth doing properly!"

[123456]

great post..but i will always wonder what lies beneath this posturing,as soon as offers on the new royal mail board start being offered you will see a potential change in the language of the senior union officials.it may not happen, but there will be a queue of people wanting to be "SORTED OUT", where the postie comes in that is my biggest question???