They Are Under Pressure!!

[wardroom]

I remember this guy comming into a certain office some time ago after we had rejected a proposal from him and forwarded him ours, his reply was over my dead body !!,
well I can tell you our proposal was in place within hours. I wondered were he went

[AndyK]

Then there's the continuing use of seniority in MCs, resulting in some poor old feller who's never used anything more high tech than his TV remote operating some complex machinery (badly) but because he's higher on the list, the CWU supports this dumb situation

What hope is there for anyone who wants to better themselves if they don't get suitably trained when they apply successfully for a new postion, a RM problem, not because of seniority.

[pickaname]

Then there's the continuing use of seniority in MCs, resulting in some poor old feller who's never used anything more high tech than his TV remote operating some complex machinery (badly) but because he's higher on the list, the CWU supports this dumb situation

What hope is there for anyone who wants to better themselves if they don't get suitably trained when they apply successfully for a new postion, a RM problem, not because of seniority.

I was thinking about this too. How does Royal Mail identify who is better equipped to do one job rather than another. Surely the above 'old guy' situation would contravene agesim laws in the workplace.

Testing people wouldnt work either as RM 'tests' are historically flawed. Seniority has to be the only real fair way. You cant fix your length of service.

Oh, and what complex machinery do RM posses? Theres nothing complex at Royal Mail except when trying to unravel their warped business strategies.

[Tman]

What hope is there for anyone who wants to better themselves if they don't get suitably trained when they apply successfully for a new postion, a RM problem, not because of seniority.

It's less about training and more about attitude and aptitude. Most people have a driving licence, but they aren't all Schumachers.

RM's problem is that it hasn't and doesn't weed out the terminally useless, and the CWU happily goes along with it.
Seniority may work for DO workers, but when there's a even a little skill or effort etc involved, it goes sadly awry.
Just ask any MC operator who's been bumped off his duty by someone in his last three years of service (although that situation is probably over now).

[pickaname]

I agree 100% with what your saying about the terminally useless.

1/2 of RM managers should be removed from the business immediately.

[andy2007]

What hope is there for anyone who wants to better themselves if they don't get suitably trained when they apply successfully for a new postion, a RM problem, not because of seniority.

It's less about training and more about attitude and aptitude. Most people have a driving licence, but they aren't all Schumachers.

RM's problem is that it hasn't and doesn't weed out the terminally useless, and the CWU happily goes along with it.
Seniority may work for DO workers, but when there's a even a little skill or effort etc involved, it goes sadly awry.
Just ask any MC operator who's been bumped off his duty by someone in his last three years of service (although that situation is probably over now).

And what evidence do you have to support your offensive, and IMHO ill-informed statement?
If someone is thought to be incompetent. They have their performance checked, and if they're found to be lacking. They're put on a disciplinary. I'd have expected you to know that.

Now, I know that the CWU is there to defend those who're accused of being too slow, or incompetant. But that's because the expectations, and/or tests, are sometimes unfair. For example: People being expected to deliver the Mail as fast on foot, and following H&S properly. As those who use their cars, and/or carry too much weight. Remember: Those who carry too much weight, will be a financial burden on RM, in the future. Becasue of the Muscularskeletal problems that they will inevitably suffer.

Another example, is: Someone who's put on a particular type of equipment. But isn't trained properly. We regularly get people put onto FLT/Scud Duties, who although they're properly trained to operate the equipment (legal requirement to have the required license). They haven't been properly trained in the Duty they're given. And in particular, our local H&S Procedures. Which as I'm sure anyone who's worked for more than one Employer will know: They are specific to the type of work, and location. So if it wasn't for experienced Posties bailing them out. They would be on disciplinaries in no time. That's bad enough, for any delays they might cause. But when it's a H&S problem: The consequences can be much worse.

So, tell me: Do you have ANY evidence of genuinely incompetant people being protected, rather than just the poorly trained (RM's fault, not the individual!), or unfairly accused ones?
Because I've seen no evidence of that. But I have seen people who were genuinely incompetent, facing disciplinaries, and loosing. So before you post any more offensive messages about us. Make sure you can back up what you say.

Oh, and don't forget: No names, or specific locations. Just what happened, and why you believe they got away with being incompetant.

[Tman]

And what evidence do you have to support your offensive, and IMHO ill-informed statement?

Personal experience Andy, that's what. Nothing ill-informed about it from my perspective. However YOU don't work in an MC, do you?
[Incidentally, what's offensive about saying some staff are useless? You believe all staff members are good, or something? You seem to let many posts through without a murmur when it's "mangers" (sic) being slagged off. Cease those double-standards FGS]

If someone is thought to be incompetent. They have their performance checked, and if they're found to be lacking. They're put on a disciplinary. I'd have expected you to know that.

Then you need to point out to me the written standards and applicable tests for those operating RM automation. I've never seen standards applied or anyone tested.
I wouldn't have expected you to know that, but then I wouldn't have expected an Andy judgement call either..

Now, I know that the CWU is there to defend those who're accused of being too slow, or incompetant. But that's because the expectations, and/or tests, are sometimes unfair. For example: People being expected to deliver the Mail as fast on foot, and following H&S properly. As those who use their cars, and/or carry too much weight. Remember: Those who carry too much weight, will be a financial burden on RM, in the future. Becasue of the Muscularskeletal problems that they will inevitably suffer.
Another example, is: Someone who's put on a particular type of equipment. But isn't trained properly. We regularly get people put onto FLT/Scud Duties, who although they're properly trained to operate the equipment (legal requirement to have the required license). They haven't been properly trained in the Duty they're given. And in particular, our local H&S Procedures. Which as I'm sure anyone who's worked for more than one Employer will know: They are specific to the type of work, and location. So if it wasn't for experienced Posties bailing them out. They would be on disciplinaries in no time. That's bad enough, for any delays they might cause. But when it's a H&S problem: The consequences can be much worse.

Not MC stuff. Not applicable, not interested.

So, tell me: Do you have ANY evidence of genuinely incompetant people being protected, rather than just the poorly trained (RM's fault, not the individual!), or unfairly accused ones

What would you like? Names dates and times? Sorry, can't do that, but if you were in my MC, I could point out operators on any shift who would have been removed in any other firm.

Because I've seen no evidence of that. But I have seen people who were genuinely incompetent, facing disciplinaries, and loosing. So before you post any more offensive messages about us.

("US?" Get over yourself. You don't even work in an MC )

Make sure you can back up what you say.

Don't be so dramatic Andy.

Oh, and don't forget: No names, or specific locations. Just what happened, and why you believe they got away with being incompetant.

OK then. How about a certain NP4000 operator who achieved an IPJ in the low hundreds when the machine normally runs at over 7000 IPJ? This person managed to jam the machine over 120 times in a shift on this occasion, but often runs at between 60-80 jams.
What does the shift manager say? Nothing, other than " they're trained but I have no one else".

Useless and incompetent. Who else but RM would employ people who can't /won't perform a relatively simple task? It's their work-mates I feel sorry for, always having to pick up the slack (you know Andy, the "Us" of this world)

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Now I know you think I am a bent ref - but frankly I am surprised no I am dumbfounded you didn't think this particular statement would be seen as offensive to a site full of DO Posties.

Seniority may work for DO workers, but when there's a even a little skill or effort etc involved, it sadly goes awry

Perhaps you meant something different but it certainly comes across that you think all delivery posties are lazy and lacking any skills. A better way to have said it would have been

Seniority may work for DO workers, but in my experience in an MC when there's a even a little skill or effort etc involved, it sadly goes awry.

That way you wont upset most of the board members.

BTW Andy is acting on a complaint or complaints received from members, he is just trying to Moderate. We have to react to complaints from members, we can't ignore them just because the person being reported thinks we are bent refs - you think we are overreacting because its you and in fact all we are trying to do is address the tone of your reported posts. Many, not just me and Andy think your posts are dismissive of posties and all we ask you to do is read your posts before you press the submit button, and see if you can present the same position without pissing people off. Simples.

[pickaname]

Compare the meerkat?

[Tman]

Perhaps you meant something different but it certainly comes across that you think all delivery posties are lazy and lacking any skills.

No, and I reckon you know perfectly well that wasn't the intention either.

A better way to have said it would have been
Seniority may work for DO workers, but in my experience in an MC when there's a even a little skill or effort etc involved, it sadly goes awry.

Thanks for that, but it would be wrong. It's not "my experience" at all, but seems to be that of MC staff in general. "Time in" is not the best way to determine who operates machinery, as every operator seems only too ready to say to anyone who'll listen.
It's almost certainly the fairest way for DO people, but all jobs ain't the same in RM.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Perhaps you meant something different but it certainly comes across that you think all delivery posties are lazy and lacking any skills.

No, and I reckon you know perfectly well that wasn't the intention either.

That was the point I was addressing - try to read your posts as others would and if you even think it may be taken wrong - self edit and then submit and perhaps we can get off this merry go round.

Thats what I try to do every time I reply to your posts - otherwise you really would think I was picking on you if I submitted the first draft of my posts instead of reading them back and wondering how you would take it.

[pickaname]

TBT - youre wasting your time m8. That merry go round is just gonna keep spinning and spinning and spinning...

[axeman]

To be fair tman is always right has to be the biggest bigot employed by royal fail if he had his way we all would be on roller skates if working on the ever so complex machines the reason for older posties to transfer to mail centres is that they find in difficult to do a walk through perhaps injurys sustained through years of carrying a bag on there backs . But mr tman would obviously rather they were sacked than find an indoor duty which lets them finnish there time with a little respect and dignity ........................ but also younger posties have entered the realms of the mail centres due to injurys but i supose these are ok mr tman because they are a little younger and perhaps more supple to lift a bundle or two off a machine

[andy2007]

And what evidence do you have to support your offensive, and IMHO ill-informed statement?

Personal experience Andy, that's what. Nothing ill-informed about it from my perspective. However YOU don't work in an MC, do you?
[Incidentally, what's offensive about saying some staff are useless? You believe all staff members are good, or something? You seem to let many posts through without a murmur when it's "mangers" (sic) being slagged off. Cease those double-standards FGS]

It depends on how far they go. I have dealt with people for going too far in their criticisms of Managers, on more than one occasion. Although, it doesn't surprise me that you were so ready to jump to conclusions, and make unfounded accusations about me. You've been in trouble for this type of thing before. Please learn from your mistakes.

I must admit, that I do step in far more often. In cases where Posties have been insulted. But that's because they complain, and Managers very rarely complain. The only times I step in, when there hasn't been a complaint. Is when things get very out of hand. RMC is here for debate. If someone wants to put their case forward forcefully, and no-one complains. And of course, if it doesn't reach the point of becoming intimidation, bullying, or slander. Then I leave them to it.

If someone is thought to be incompetent. They have their performance checked, and if they're found to be lacking. They're put on a disciplinary. I'd have expected you to know that.

Then you need to point out to me the written standards and applicable tests for those operating RM automation. I've never seen standards applied or anyone tested.
I wouldn't have expected you to know that, but then I wouldn't have expected an Andy judgement call either..

In my experience (and that of the DO Posties that I know), those who aren't up to scratch. Have their performance checked, and if they're found to be lacking. Then they've faced a disciplinary. I don't know the standards for the machinery you have in an MC. Because as you so rightly said: I don't work in one.

However: I do know of people, who've been disciplined for not pulling their weight on FLTs and Scuds. Even though there's no specific performance standards. It's simply a case of: If they're visibly working slower than their Collegues, without justification. They get taken into "The Office", and asked to explain themselves. If there's a safety reason (recently qualified, and not confident; Collegues taking risks, by driving too fast for the conditions; etc.), they're fine (with CWU help). Otherwise, they are disciplined. If that's not happening where you are. Then you obviously have an inept Manager. Particularly in the current climate.

Now, I know that the CWU is there to defend those who're accused of being too slow, or incompetant. But that's because the expectations, and/or tests, are sometimes unfair. For example: People being expected to deliver the Mail as fast on foot, and following H&S properly. As those who use their cars, and/or carry too much weight. Remember: Those who carry too much weight, will be a financial burden on RM, in the future. Becasue of the Muscularskeletal problems that they will inevitably suffer.
Another example, is: Someone who's put on a particular type of equipment. But isn't trained properly. We regularly get people put onto FLT/Scud Duties, who although they're properly trained to operate the equipment (legal requirement to have the required license). They haven't been properly trained in the Duty they're given. And in particular, our local H&S Procedures. Which as I'm sure anyone who's worked for more than one Employer will know: They are specific to the type of work, and location. So if it wasn't for experienced Posties bailing them out. They would be on disciplinaries in no time. That's bad enough, for any delays they might cause. But when it's a H&S problem: The consequences can be much worse.

Not MC stuff. Not applicable, not interested.
The first example, relates to DO Posties. You were the one who brought them into this, by accusing them of being lazy and poorly educated. If you don't want to face the facts. Then don't make unfounded accusations.

The second example, is from personal experience in an RDC. So are you saying that the problems you're talking about, are specific to MCs?
If so: Why are you insulting DO Posties?

So, tell me: Do you have ANY evidence of genuinely incompetant people being protected, rather than just the poorly trained (RM's fault, not the individual!), or unfairly accused ones

What would you like? Names dates and times? Sorry, can't do that, but if you were in my MC, I could point out operators on any shift who would have been removed in any other firm.

Because I've seen no evidence of that. But I have seen people who were genuinely incompetent, facing disciplinaries, and loosing. So before you post any more offensive messages about us.

("US?" Get over yourself. You don't even work in an MC )

And you don't work in a DO. So what gives you the right to criticise DO Posties, when you don't see what happens first hand?
We're all Posties. The sooner we start sticking together, the better.

Make sure you can back up what you say.

Don't be so dramatic Andy.

What's dramatic about me asking you to be able to back up your statements?
Would you prefer this to descend into another of your slanging matches. Or be a useful debate?

Oh, and don't forget: No names, or specific locations. Just what happened, and why you believe they got away with being incompetant.

OK then. How about a certain NP4000 operator who achieved an IPJ in the low hundreds when the machine normally runs at over 7000 IPJ? This person managed to jam the machine over 120 times in a shift on this occasion, but often runs at between 60-80 jams.
What does the shift manager say? Nothing, other than " they're trained but I have no one else".

Useless and incompetent. Who else but RM would employ people who can't /won't perform a relatively simple task? It's their work-mates I feel sorry for, always having to pick up the slack (you know Andy, the "Us" of this world)

And there you have it! It's not a case of someone being forced off that Duty to make room for an incompetant. It's a case of the Manager not having anyone else trained in the use of the equipment. Having to leave an incompetant in charge of it, because there's no-one else who can operate it at all. Have you thought about asking to be trained?
There should always be Reserves (the worst the Manager could say, is no!), for any type of equipment. That way, if the Postie you're referring to, continues to be as bad as you say he is. The Manager would have someone else to replace him with. Or do you just like complaining, without trying to do anything about it?

[norbert]

Perhaps you meant something different but it certainly comes across that you think all delivery posties are lazy and lacking any skills.

No, and I reckon you know perfectly well that wasn't the intention either.

A better way to have said it would have been
Seniority may work for DO workers, but in my experience in an MC when there's a even a little skill or effort etc involved, it sadly goes awry.

Thanks for that, but it would be wrong. It's not "my experience" at all, but seems to be that of MC staff in general. "Time in" is not the best way to determine who operates machinery, as every operator seems only too ready to say to anyone who'll listen.
It's almost certainly the fairest way for DO people, but all jobs ain't the same in RM.

From the outside looking in , collections , distribution etc - there is and always has been a problem with " Command & Ignore " in APC''s , the corruption ( some places thrive on their own corruption ) and favourtism that you'll get in most places but it's taken to extremes with RM , problems with the culture , excessive political correctness , lost causes , poor management , many that are ex cadets . There's also many ex cadets in uniform that were sent to " the factory " .

I'm afraid that sh** finds it's level in RM full stop . Problem is that you get the sack if you tell the truth in RM . A management culture / system for the benefit of the people in it - it's got even worse with :lfo & :cfo ?

Problem is if you replace seniority with suitability there will be even more nepotism , corruption , favourtism , positive discrimination etc - RM has a trust problem end of . The top down way of issuing dicktat after dicktat doesn't work and a more forensic approach is needed .

There's also some good staff as well .