CWU reaffirm opposition to second referendum

Post by **baldrick** » 28 Jun 2019, 05:56

postslippete wrote:I don't think freedom of speech has diminished either but I think that democracy will be if we are somehow forced to have another vote. Nothing would send a clear message to the general public that your vote is irrelevant because certain people of influence in London i.e. MPs, journalists and lawyers don't agree with the vote and still want us to remain in the EU. And that really is the top and bottom of it.

So how is the impasse to be resolved? Parliament has made it clear that they won't accept a 'No Deal' Brexit.

k979aaa · Post by **k979aaa** » 29 Jun 2019, 03:48

The vote was irrelevant one because of voter lists and secondly lies spat forth from yours truly Boris Johnston I am surprised he did not use the fake news tag some others have adopted in the west. As it stood then only 52% voted leave of which half would be dead now and the turnout was only 77% hardly a mandate and that is just registered voters on the day. Anyone who thinks we can take back control is delusional and not fit for office even as the office CAT!

Marshamp11 · Post by **Marshamp11** » 29 Jun 2019, 14:02

k979aaa wrote:The vote was irrelevant one because of voter lists and secondly lies spat forth from yours truly Boris Johnston I am surprised he did not use the fake news tag some others have adopted in the west. As it stood then only 52% voted leave of which half would be dead now and the turnout was only 77% hardly a mandate and that is just registered voters on the day. Anyone who thinks we can take back control is delusional and not fit for office even as the office CAT!

You say it was only a 77% turnout but we have had political parties elected to run the country on less turnout than that. Maybe its time to make voting compulsory so that the result would be a true reflection on how the country feels on any issue. For, against or other.

k979aaa · Post by **k979aaa** » 29 Jun 2019, 15:08

Marshamp11 wrote:
k979aaa wrote:The vote was irrelevant one because of voter lists and secondly lies spat forth from yours truly Boris Johnston I am surprised he did not use the fake news tag some others have adopted in the west. As it stood then only 52% voted leave of which half would be dead now and the turnout was only 77% hardly a mandate and that is just registered voters on the day. Anyone who thinks we can take back control is delusional and not fit for office even as the office CAT!
You say it was only a 77% turnout but we have had political parties elected to run the country on less turnout than that. Maybe its time to make voting compulsory so that the result would be a true reflection on how the country feels on any issue. For, against or other.

That would be a good idea but the poll tax did no favours for democracy in this nation but I agree with you.

postslippete · Post by **postslippete** » 02 Jul 2019, 19:09

k979aaa wrote:The vote was irrelevant one because of voter lists and secondly lies spat forth from yours truly Boris Johnston I am surprised he did not use the fake news tag some others have adopted in the west. As it stood then only 52% voted leave of which half would be dead now and the turnout was only 77% hardly a mandate and that is just registered voters on the day. Anyone who thinks we can take back control is delusional and not fit for office even as the office CAT!

You sound a bit like a bitter football fan complaining that his team lost the final because the best players weren't fit or that the ref didn't give a penalty so we should therefore have a re-match. In much the same way its a bit delusional to say that the referendum vote was irrelevant. You have to accept that people made their choice regarding what the politicians said at the time, regardless of whether they were true/false or whether they did/didn't carry them out just like they did in previous general elections.

Secondly, 52% yes, it was a close run thing but in many towns the percentages were well over 70% for leaving the EU and many of them were my work colleagues and from what I've seen half of them are not dead yet!! Given another vote I would vote to leave again just as I'm sure you would vote to remain. Thats why I don't think another referendum is the solution partly because it will be another close run thing, and partly because its smacks of being a Trojan horse to try and ensure that we don't leave the EU. And that cannot be allowed to happen because the die has been cast. It would be a sign of really weak leadership not to honour it for the potential repercussions that it would bring. The EU was conceived nearly 50 years ago and the forces at work are deep and it will clearly take time to untangle it all.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 02 Jul 2019, 22:07

True that.
I wonder how many who voted Remain would be actively campaigning for a second vote now had the Remain side achieved 52% three years ago?
Doubtless all the old "we weren't told...we were lied to...etc etc" stuff wouldn't be quite so important then.

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 03 Jul 2019, 05:12

I wonder how many who voted Remain would be actively campaigning for a second vote now had the Remain side achieved 52% three years ago?

Bit of a silly point.
Nothing in the last three years has made leaving the EU more appealing to someone who voted remain in the first place so why would anyone have changed their position enough to want to actively campaign to have that decision reversed?

The complete shambles we're now in and the greater mess to come was all so depressingly predictable and was predicted so you guys can own it completely now, have a little courage at least, stop trying to blame remainers for a situation you created and let's hear some real plans for the future or will we just continue to blame everything s**t on the EU until the end of time?

Time to start walking the walk and stop being professional complainers I suppose. Not easy after40 years of having Europe as an easy scapegoat.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 03 Jul 2019, 09:19

Seems like all your posts start with the same style of derogatory comment, but as so often you answer the point you think was made rather than the point that actually was being made.

I don't know who "you guys" are supposed to be, but the point was that with all the accusations of lying, falsehoods, propaganda etc made by BOTH sides would so-called Remainers
be quite so keen to call a rerun of the vote now had they "won"? Most certainly not.
Nothing whatsoever to do with "owning it" or "having courage" but everything to do with the bending of moral principles to suit the purposes of the "losing" side.

Post by **TrueBlueTerrier** » 03 Jul 2019, 10:27

I wonder which side and who set that 52% threshold before the result.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 03 Jul 2019, 10:50

Where did/does it say that any threshold was set?

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 03 Jul 2019, 15:19

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said : "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Seems like a threshold to me.....

NWpostie · Post by **NWpostie** » 03 Jul 2019, 22:18

A second referendum will not end it, it would be more divisive, anti democratic with political repercussions.

The "shambles" has been caused by Remainers sabotaging the process in order to stop Brexit nothing to do with "protecting democracy"

Woody Guthrie · Post by **Woody Guthrie** » 04 Jul 2019, 06:28

A willingness by politicians to say what they think the public want to hear, and a willingness by large parts of the public to believe what they are told by populist politicians, has led to a deterioration in our public discourse.

“This has contributed to a growing distrust of our institutions – whether that be parliament, the civil service, the mainstream media or the judiciary.”

A dangerous gulf is emerging, he said, between the people and the institutions that serve them. Such institutions – including the legal system and the judiciary – provide the “kind of confidence and predictability that underpins our success as a society”.

“Rather than recognising the challenges of a fast-changing society require sometimes complex responses, that we live in a world of trade-offs, that easy answers are usually false answers, we have seen the rise of the simplifiers.

“Those grappling with complex problems are not viewed as public servants but as engaged in a conspiracy to seek to frustrate the will of the public. They are ‘enemies of the people’.”. Justice Secretary David Gauke

This I think is a very valid point coupled with the fact that conversation has become so polarised that rather than address the point someone is trying to make which might involve some critical thinking it's far easier for lazy keyboard warriors to play the man/woman.

To bury your head in the sand and blame remainers for sabotaging Brexit would be laughable if it wasn't for the fact that some people genuinely believe that. What sabotaged Brexit was the simple fact that no sensible deal was ever going to be radical enough for the ERG and the right-wing of the Tory party. That's why we have a potential Prime Minister promoting a no-deal option that everyone from the Chancellor to the EU and even Boris himself knows isn't a viable option at all. Three full years of talking about no-deal has ironically ( or deliberately ) wasted so much time it has left us with no deal and since no deal is such a calamitous option that is unacceptable to the majority of parliament........potentially no Brexit.

Post by **baldrick** » 04 Jul 2019, 06:32

NWpostie wrote: The "shambles" has been caused by Remainers sabotaging the process in order to stop Brexit

The shambles has been caused by the people who argued for Leave, not really believing it would be carried and so not having a plan for how it could be implemented. And three years later they still don't.

NWpostie · Post by **NWpostie** » 04 Jul 2019, 14:14

baldrick wrote:
NWpostie wrote: The "shambles" has been caused by Remainers sabotaging the process in order to stop Brexit
The shambles has been caused by the people who argued for Leave, not really believing it would be carried and so not having a plan for how it could be implemented. And three years later they still don't.

Rubbish.
Why campaign for leave without believing in it ?
I like many have read the question. Leave the EU, I understood what that meant, leave everything to do with the EU ergo no deal Brexit.
If we get a deal, good, If not the default is no deal brexit.

Meanwhile remainers are tying themselves in a knot trying to justify opposition to the result by claiming it wasn't democratic enough, political parties have been voted in on less turnout, are they undemocratic ?

The unavoidable perception of the remain campsign to stop Brexit is that of petulant losers, willing to overturn democratic precedence in order to remain in the EU that dontcreally care about them ignoring the majority that voted leave, is a very dangerous road to go down.....