One wave

[datasaint]

hardly any sequenced mail is first class, probably less than 5% so why sequence it ? you could work a day behind then for the dsa sequenced stuff, prepping this when you come back off delvery for the following day, if royal mail wants more parcels to be next day then these could be delivered later on in the day on a 2 delivery system.

All DSA is 1st class so that would fail if you done that and the time delay between 1st and 2nd class is already built in, 2nd class gets sent from an outward MC to the inward MC the next day so by the time it reaches the inward MC it's all 1st class

If dsa is first class why are we given 3 days to deliver bulk postings ?

There's another class of DSA called Mailsort that's the equivalent of 3rd class, from what I gather anyway.

[RTP]

Lets think this through we have a universal service obligation which protects jobs and we now want to down dial this ? Why Part of our USO licence given by Ofcom requires Royal Mail to ensure that they deliver at least 94 our of 100 first class letters the next day. Royal Mail face fines in some areas where this has dropped below 91.5 from the regulator. Yet some want Royal Mail and the CWU to go back to Ofcom and say can we only deliver 60 or 70 letters out of an 100 so we can continue to finish at a reasonable time. Do you really think this regulator who"s recommendations are due out in April will agree ?

The USO protects jobs but it does require the same service standards throughout the UK and this means that if you post a letter in Corwall the previous day first class and it is for Edinburgh than 94 out of every 100 has to be delivered. You cannot do this if you suddenly say well lets only deliver first class up to 5 in evening or 4 in the afternoon.

Thing is on the busy days the likelihood is that the percentage of postmen unwilling to work past their finish will rise by quite a bit , especially in the winter months when they're fiddling around in the dark which will have a adverse affect on the quality of service.

[claretandblue]

so 90% of the mail has to be delayed by over 3 hours just so we can have 1 wave ? When sequencing first came in before our hours changed we were waiting 45 mins for the second sequence to arrive, ours go's from the MC to another office further away and then back to us, it would have been quicker just to send it from the MC unsequenced straight to us but no royalmail would rather pay us to stand around with nothing to do for an hour.

[SpacePhoenix]

There's another class of DSA called Mailsort that's the equivalent of 3rd class, from what I gather anyway.

Even that arrives in the Inward MC the day before it's due for delivery so when it arrives at a DO it's due for delivery that day, the only exception to that is on a Saturday where some DOs have got local agreements that MS3 gets held over till Monday. If them XMS machines are brought in that exception won't exist anymore as it'll arrive already sequenced along with the other stuff.

so 90% of the mail has to be delayed by over 3 hours just so we can have 1 wave ? When sequencing first came in before our hours changed we were waiting 45 mins for the second sequence to arrive, ours go's from the MC to another office further away and then back to us, it would have been quicker just to send it from the MC unsequenced straight to us but no royalmail would rather pay us to stand around with nothing to do for an hour.

One wave sequencing probably will happen, a lot of the time on wave 2s (at least locally) a very sizeable chunk of the walks, have so little mail that it gets banded up. Frankly sometimes the amount of mail is so small that we might as well sometimes just walk sort it only

[Martin Walsh]

Look I am up for thinking outside the box but let's be realistic there is no prospect of Ofcom suddenly saying to Royal Mail that of course we will change the terms of the USO , you can leave all that what used to first class to another and the DSA which makes up 58% of letters work you can also leave this work till the next day and TNT and UKMails etc will be happy with all this. And why have Royal Mail requested this oh we want to delay the mail so postmen and women can finish as they do now !

You really think our friendly regulator would agree to this ? Do you really think Royal Mail as a privatised company answerable to their shareholders who already taken 440 million out of the company these last 2 and bit years are going to say yes let's drop first class or delay it , let's not fully utilise the millions they have spent on the machines and let's be less efficient all because postmen and women want to finish at the same times as now !

If you really believe either of these options are going to happen then your living in a parallel universe.

There are only two ways we are going to get a chance to shape this plan and limit its impact on our members and it is similar to the opening up of the night tube and that is to get the members on board for a negotiated deal , a strike if Royal Mail don't listen and an agreement which limits its impact which will be subject to a membership ballot.

All the tube unions have stood down the action planned for next week because they now have a deal which they will recommend acceptance to their members. I have seen the deal and it is detailed and provides genuine safeguards as well as a 4 year pay deal.

As part of this strategy we should consult with the members in a way which really allows for a two way dialogue and ensures we can get their input and shape any agreement .

[fishtank]

As you're well aware dingo removing the 1st Class obligation would not make us less efficient and would save the business a great deal of disproportional costs , as for fully utilising the machine, how many CSS machines are running at full capacity, how many have been mothballed?

Shareholders would love it if we dropped the 1st class obligation and it will happen at some point in the future so I think it's something the union should be ready for, having said that I don't think the business is ready for it yet. As for the rest I have little confidence that any negotiated agreement will protect our members, BT2010 was a similar "game changer" and that was a shambles of an agreement evidenced by the fact that 6 years on your own patch has barely implemented it, fine for you guys but tough s**t for the rest of the country who got hammered by poor planning tools and silence from HQ.

Why should we expect any different this time?

[pj2001]

Look I am up for thinking outside the box but let's be realistic there is no prospect of Ofcom suddenly saying to Royal Mail that of course we will change the terms of the USO , you can leave all that what used to first class to another and the DSA which makes up 58% of letters work you can also leave this work till the next day and TNT and UKMails etc will be happy with all this. And why have Royal Mail requested this oh we want to delay the mail so postmen and women can finish as they do now !

You really think our friendly regulator would agree to this ? Do you really think Royal Mail as a privatised company answerable to their shareholders who already taken 440 million out of the company these last 2 and bit years are going to say yes let's drop first class or delay it , let's not fully utilise the millions they have spent on the machines and let's be less efficient all because postmen and women want to finish at the same times as now !

If you really believe either of these options are going to happen then your living in a parallel universe.

There are only two ways we are going to get a chance to shape this plan and limit its impact on our members and it is similar to the opening up of the night tube and that is to get the members on board for a negotiated deal , a strike if Royal Mail don't listen and an agreement which limits its impact which will be subject to a membership ballot.

All the tube unions have stood down the action planned for next week because they now have a deal which they will recommend acceptance to their members. I have seen the deal and it is detailed and provides genuine safeguards as well as a 4 year pay deal.

As part of this strategy we should consult with the members in a way which really allows for a two way dialogue and ensures we can get their input and shape any agreement .

I think the big mistake your making is thinking that the workforce is irreplaceable, wrong. The majority of jobs are unskilled and the way mechanisation has affected skills needed to do the job you could easily be replaced over night. Tube drivers on the other hand are a highly skilled workforce that cannot be replaced over night, that alone adds massive weight to a disagreement.

Also another millstone has been placed round the neck of unions by the Tories to enable strike action to be taken, to be honest I don't think the cwu would hit that target now, to me they seem hand in glove with royal mail under the heading ' protecting fulltime jobs by accepting unmanageable workloads.'

One wave will be phased in without a shadow of doubt over the next two, three years with the amalgamation of DOs into super DOs, like hubs. Why do you think Royal Mail has invested millions on vehicles? To make its workforce mobile maybe?

[claretandblue]

Isn't it about time we took the regulator on instead of bending over for a good shafting, no more TNT over t'ill we are the only show in town now.

[Martin Walsh]

PJ I was not saying that the members was wrong , simply that Ofcom and Royal Mail would not listen to an argument which meant they introduced an amendment on the USO which artificially delayed work so that Postal Workers could finish early.

In terms the trade union bill , yes the tories are trying to make it harder for members to stand. However when the Agenda for Growth Industrial Ballot result was declared there was 56339 yes votes and just 15624 no votes in a 63% turn out. We did not need to use any action we got an agreement. So even if the Trade union bill came in I still think would deliver.

Now you make the point that Royal Mail will still introduce the change , well one thing is certain if you don't fight they will introduce their plans in full , if the membership and the union fight than every deal gets better. People moan about the Pay and Mod agreement and the BT2010 agreement but what Royal Mail wanted to introduce into both of those agreements were far worse than what was in the agreement

Fish if we ever did drop the first class or supported that change then sure as eggs are egg than the USO will be finished and those of us in towns and cities would probably get a delivery once a day still , but those in rural and less busy areas will possibly only have a delivery twice or three times per week.

[fishtank]

I think any deal that lengthens deliveries has to look at protecting our older members, it would be ridiculous to expect members to work into their late sixties and perhaps longer walking the streets for 5hrs+ in all weathers. Perhaps some kind of graduated reduction in walk length?

In the old days the answer was a job in the mailcentre, that obviously isn't an option now.

[motherhubbard]

I think any deal that lengthens deliveries has to look at protecting our older members.

We've got death in service benefits - what more could anyone ask for?

[dvbuk55]

I think any deal that lengthens deliveries has to look at protecting our older members.

We've got death in service benefits - what more could anyone ask for?

A place on the PEC with full time release.

[halfull]

I think any deal that lengthens deliveries has to look at protecting our older members, it would be ridiculous to expect members to work into their late sixties and perhaps longer walking the streets for 5hrs+ in all weathers. Perhaps some kind of graduated reduction in walk length?

In the old days the answer was a job in the mailcentre, that obviously isn't an option now.

This could have worked years ago but now it would not be fair as even guys in their 30's & 40's are suffering from the workload!

[fishtank]

I think any deal that lengthens deliveries has to look at protecting our older members, it would be ridiculous to expect members to work into their late sixties and perhaps longer walking the streets for 5hrs+ in all weathers. Perhaps some kind of graduated reduction in walk length?

In the old days the answer was a job in the mailcentre, that obviously isn't an option now.

This could have worked years ago but now it would not be fair as even guys in their 30's & 40's are suffering from the workload!

Not really interested in whether people think it's "fair", I'm interested in keeping people in a job, not seeing them forced to pack it in because the job is becoming physically more than can be expected of most older members.

[wannabeek]

I think it isn't entirely fair to say that the only benefit of earlier deliveries would be that the postman gets to finish work at an earlier hour.

I don't believe I'd be alone in feeling extremely vehemently cheesed off as a recipient if my daily mail delivery came at 17:00 every day, which is what is being proposed for many people, it seems. This is a massive deterioration in the quality of service, and really not so much to do with the posties knocking off at a decent hour of day. That's an associated benefit in my opinion.

Whether the mail arrives at 17:00 on Tuesday or 7am on Wednesday makes no darned difference at all, so far as I can see.