ANNOUNCEMENT : ALL OF ROYAL MAIL'S EMPLOYMENT POLICIES (AGREEMENTS) AT A GLANCE (Updated 2021)... HERE

ANNOUNCEMENT : PLEASE BE AWARE WE ARE NOT ON FACEBOOK AT ALL!

Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Please

Got a question for a CWU Rep? And all CWU related matters.
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by fishtank »

Himaggen wrote:
fishtank wrote:I have never heard of a manager taking 4 months to start the stage process,i would doubt if he could come up with a valid reason to justify it
A clever Manager may say that postponed the interview until such time as they were assured that it wouldn't further exacerbate their Employees stress condition!
That's not a clever manager.
You could just as easily argue that having it hanging over the member with no resolution for such a long period of time would cause even more stress.
They didn't officially postpone/suspend the meeting,that would need a paper trail...they forgot/couldn't be arsed.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
clashcityrocker
Posts: 16679
Joined: 22 Sep 2009, 13:50
Gender: Male
Location: strummerville

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by clashcityrocker »

A clever manager?
Where are they hiding him?
The societies of consumption and squandering of material resources are incompatible with the idea of economic growth and a clean planet.
dvbuk55
EX ROYAL MAIL
Posts: 16650
Joined: 02 Jun 2007, 19:17
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by dvbuk55 »

Himaggen wrote:
fishtank wrote:I have never heard of a manager taking 4 months to start the stage process,i would doubt if he could come up with a valid reason to justify it
A clever Manager may say that postponed the interview until such time as they were assured that it wouldn't further exacerbate their Employees stress condition!
Well he wouldn't be that clever because he would need to justify that length of time AND why he hadn't had an informal chat with the employee stating that it was informal and merely a one to one without prejudice.
denisewilson13
Posts: 5
Joined: 25 Feb 2012, 14:21
Gender: Female

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by denisewilson13 »

to fishtank could they actually cancel a stage two tho? as I got told stages one and two can no longer be appealed
Himaggen
Posts: 993
Joined: 09 Oct 2007, 23:40

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by Himaggen »

All stages are at a Managers discretion, they can be cancelled.
Oldham600
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 34
Joined: 09 Nov 2010, 21:10
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by Oldham600 »

Himaggen wrote:
fishtank wrote:I have never heard of a manager taking 4 months to start the stage process,i would doubt if he could come up with a valid reason to justify it
A clever Manager may say that postponed the interview until such time as they were assured that it wouldn't further exacerbate their Employees stress condition!
Ha ha ha joke of the day that!!! :crazy:
Oldham600
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 34
Joined: 09 Nov 2010, 21:10
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by Oldham600 »

denisewilson13 wrote:to fishtank could they actually cancel a stage two tho? as I got told stages one and two can no longer be appealed
They cant be appealed against Denise but hopefully all that is going to change in the near future.
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by fishtank »

denisewilson13 wrote:to fishtank could they actually cancel a stage two tho? as I got told stages one and two can no longer be appealed
If a stage has been applied outside the words or spirit of the agreed attendance procedure you have a right to make a formal complaint.
This is done through the grievance procedure.
In a case like yours i would involve your area rep and branch because using the grievance procedure without support usually ends with it being ignored.
The right,or lack of it to appeal only applies to the decision to apply a stage not the process used to apply it.
It does not give managers immunity if they fail to follow proper procedure.
Waiting 4 months to instigate a stage interview is.in my opinion and i would like to think in the opinion of most people.....a blatant failure to follow proper procedure.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
Cheetah
Posts: 428
Joined: 13 Oct 2009, 13:17
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by Cheetah »

Himaggen wrote:
fishtank wrote:I have never heard of a manager taking 4 months to start the stage process,i would doubt if he could come up with a valid reason to justify it
A clever Manager may say that postponed the interview until such time as they were assured that it wouldn't further exacerbate their Employees stress condition!
Well for one I don't know of many of those :Very Happy
But more importantly if that were the case they would have had to inform the individual in writing of what they were doing to stay in line with procedure.
Yet another management mess, like FT said take them to the cleaners, go for getting the stage 2 revoked, they can't do just what they want, only if you let them...Good luck :Very Happy
graffi
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 186
Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 11:34
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by graffi »

Fishtank they wont entertain a grievance procedure ...unless its equality related mate
patrickstar
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 133
Joined: 05 Oct 2007, 07:30

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by patrickstar »

i have read on here before from someone else that there is a 3 month time limit on issuing a stage.something from hr services indicating that if the stage had not been issued by this time it should be ignored.somebody else my be able to get up the post on it? rmap clarifications 5.2

you should have not have the stage 2 issued at all
ninja
Posts: 193
Joined: 08 Sep 2010, 20:16
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by ninja »

This procedure hasn't been fit for use since the day it was introduced and has been widely abused by the managers. Under the B&T agreement this procedure has been looked at and is being changed to reflect some of the issues raised throughout this thread and others. The most important being that we will have the right of appeal at each stage and so this should help with the management culture of issue all warnings, because we don't have the right of appeal.

Unfortunatly, this agreement relies on the managers to use common sense and apply fairness, I don't think so.

Below are some of the mistakes made with the agreement.

TIME SCALES.

I triggered a stage 1 in 1988 (but haven't had an interview) and according to HQ the business could actually still request this interview and presumable issue me the stage warning. This is because the agreement only has trigger points and doesn't actually state time scales for interview because HQ thought that it would allow for medical reports,etc....
Appeals managers have the unwritten rule that 12 weeks is the maximum time frame that they feel comfortable with and guess an ET may have shaped there thinking?.

I remember getting a reply from Mr M Collins national indoor sec (retired) informing me that a number of agreements sit outside the grievence procedure and the attendance procedure was one of them, hence in my patch the managers often say that the stage 3 is to hear your grievences. Although it would seem that some people have used the grievence procedure so give it a go.

It would be useful to know the managers rational for issuing the warning and if he has just said something like you have breached the standards agreed withe the CWU then you would have strong grounds to challange the procedure on the basis that the manager must explain his rational for making the decision and consider all your mitigation. Appeals manager and ET's would struggle to except that all your mitigation had been taking into consideration if the managers rational didn't show it.

You could also send all your paperwork to Mr Ray Ellis at CWU HQ for some guidance on how best to deal with the issue.

Perhaps you can provide the rational used by this manager inorder that a better response could be formulated.
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by fishtank »

patrickstar wrote:i have read on here before from someone else that there is a 3 month time limit on issuing a stage.something from hr services indicating that if the stage had not been issued by this time it should be ignored.somebody else my be able to get up the post on it? rmap clarifications 5.2

you should have not have the stage 2 issued at all
rmap clarifications.jpg
It's not a very good copy...
It states....

Missed Triggers.
In the event of a trigger being missed for an absence or series of absences HRSC are only required to go back 3 months.Any outstanding triggers older than this will be ignored.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
BernardBresslaw
Posts: 381
Joined: 24 Nov 2011, 15:52
Gender: Male

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by BernardBresslaw »

A slight aside from this but how long do they have to notify you after your interview if a stage has been issued? I had mine, manager didn't say whether or not it would be issued, and I've had no paper work and certainly not signed anything, since. I thought they let you know pretty sharpish after the interview?
mal
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 Apr 2007, 23:29

Re: Returned November - Stage 2 issued February - Advice Ple

Post by mal »

These are the first 3 pages giving clarity re Stage warnings under RM's Attendance
RMP Clarifications 1..pdf
RMP Clarifications 2..pdf
RMP Clarifications 3..pdf
Procedure
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by mal on 28 Feb 2012, 23:02, edited 1 time in total.