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dismissal

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hantsman
EX ROYAL MAIL
Posts: 876
Joined: 14 Jul 2009, 09:33
Gender: Male

Re: dismissal

Post by hantsman »

norbert wrote:
hantsman wrote:
norbert wrote:
sharonbar wrote:yes ive spoke to union rep but we dont know what the charge is yet an i havent had my interveiw so my rep can not help me yet but i recevied a letter yesterday saying im still suspended an when i return to work place i can seek support from help advice so a bit confussed there
the branch should be told about it and they MUST find you a rep who is trained to do RTU's & serious CofC , usually it's a area rep :hmmmm - otherwise RM will instantly smell a weakness and it'll be a lamb to the slaughter .

If you are dismissed , put your appeal in within three days and get Form IT - 1 ( Application to Tribunal ) from the Dept of Work & Pensions , any dole office or Job Centre , RM will hope that you will be worn down by their appeals process and hope that you're daft enough to believe everything they say - Call their bluff .

You have to go through a preliminary hearing first with a application to tribunal , that's to decide if someone is taking the p*** or being a pain in the arse or not .

However Tribunals are not necessarily about how fair or unfair or right or wrong a dismissal was . They are about - have RM followed their own procedure ? - have they acted " reasonably " . If RM botch things as they do due to pressure , they have to be tripped up properly .

They've a habit of using their solicitors to pay people off before the Tribunal is due , first it'll be £500 then £1000+ , it's "amazing" how they offer more when the papers get a sniff of it :hmmmm . That might be a long shot .

Its an ET now unless you are in Ireland, there is no preliminary hearing for an ET. RM have roughly a 100 person legal team that is on a constant retainer. Acas will be informed and both parties writtern to. RM very rarely settle before the ET
sorry - the terms I use are a bit old fashioned

- I might be a bit behind the times about preliminary hearings :hmmmm - I have heard quite a few stories on here about RM solicitors offering to settle to get someone to drop a Tribunal Action as it saves on the cost of all these self inflicted tribunals .

However if a employer offers to settle it doesn't clear the employee of any offence . It is important not to be bullied by them , RM's tactics are usually to reinstate but with a warning still hanging over them , even if the original case was built on sand /somebody sacked on the flimsiest pretexts .

In any case they throw money at these ET's as it's apparently cheaper than redundancy .
No worries Norbert, my case is in now against RM for unfair dismissal plus 3 other complaints (the old wilfull delay) :roll:
The current ET delay is around 5 months, thats for non difficult cases ie a dismissal. RM even when told by the ET to reinstate, do not have to, more compensation will be awarded however. An ET does not like to reinstate for obvious reasons!
SeriousSam
Posts: 107
Joined: 08 Nov 2009, 11:23
Gender: Male

Re: dismissal

Post by SeriousSam »

yes you are allowed by governmental law stating you can appeal against the desision. as for whether the union with pay that question can only be answered by them as each case is different and they will assess you based on the facts for your case. i hope this has been helpful friend.
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norbert
Posts: 3027
Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 01:46

Re: dismissal

Post by norbert »

I did read in " Voice " about RM catching someone thieving from wagons at Warrington RDC . However they also sacked the other guy that was in the wagon at the same time for apparently turning a blind eye to the thieving , in RM's eye's he was equally as guilty :roll: .

In my experience if there's been thieving by a bad apple , somebody will ask in WTL why that person got away with it for so long ? . The manager will say " I will get back to you " :roll: :crazy: - he or she will come back with the " correct " RM answer which is somebody was turning a blind eye and it's the staff that are at fault of course ! - not RM .

I suppose everybody has to be singing from the same hymn sheet and sacking two instead of one sends out a zero tolerance message on Planet RM but in the real world it goes against the principles of Natural Justice and Innocent before being proved guilty beyond all reasonable doubt :d'oh! :crazy: .

The tribunal were obviously not impressed by RM playing detective , judge , jury and executioner and ordered a £65,000 compensation award . It sounds like they didn't want that guy back as to RM he was a "troublemaker" who had the temerity to stand up to them & they didn't want to put ideas into other people's heads .

There was another case at a RDC when there was a row between a employee and a manager , the manager assaulted the employee , true to form RM twisted everything on it's head but that didn't cut much ice at a Tribunal as RM lost and had to reinstate .

However on reinstatement the employee came back to a trumped up charge of failing to show dignity and respect to cage cards :crazy: - cage cards have feelings too :crazy: .

There's too much of this impress the Emperor and the Emperors new clothes with RM , everyone can see it bar RM of course . :d'oh! :d'oh!
SeriousSam
Posts: 107
Joined: 08 Nov 2009, 11:23
Gender: Male

Re: dismissal

Post by SeriousSam »

I know somebody who was fired for sniffing poppers at work as a forklift driver, he appealed and lost.
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kay_thebigbird
Posts: 200
Joined: 28 Feb 2008, 17:14

Re: dismissal

Post by kay_thebigbird »

hantsman wrote:
norbert wrote:
hantsman wrote:
norbert wrote:
sharonbar wrote:yes ive spoke to union rep but we dont know what the charge is yet an i havent had my interveiw so my rep can not help me yet but i recevied a letter yesterday saying im still suspended an when i return to work place i can seek support from help advice so a bit confussed there
the branch should be told about it and they MUST find you a rep who is trained to do RTU's & serious CofC , usually it's a area rep :hmmmm - otherwise RM will instantly smell a weakness and it'll be a lamb to the slaughter .

If you are dismissed , put your appeal in within three days and get Form IT - 1 ( Application to Tribunal ) from the Dept of Work & Pensions , any dole office or Job Centre , RM will hope that you will be worn down by their appeals process and hope that you're daft enough to believe everything they say - Call their bluff .

You have to go through a preliminary hearing first with a application to tribunal , that's to decide if someone is taking the p*** or being a pain in the arse or not .

However Tribunals are not necessarily about how fair or unfair or right or wrong a dismissal was . They are about - have RM followed their own procedure ? - have they acted " reasonably " . If RM botch things as they do due to pressure , they have to be tripped up properly .

They've a habit of using their solicitors to pay people off before the Tribunal is due , first it'll be £500 then £1000+ , it's "amazing" how they offer more when the papers get a sniff of it :hmmmm . That might be a long shot .

Its an ET now unless you are in Ireland, there is no preliminary hearing for an ET. RM have roughly a 100 person legal team that is on a constant retainer. Acas will be informed and both parties writtern to. RM very rarely settle before the ET
sorry - the terms I use are a bit old fashioned

- I might be a bit behind the times about preliminary hearings :hmmmm - I have heard quite a few stories on here about RM solicitors offering to settle to get someone to drop a Tribunal Action as it saves on the cost of all these self inflicted tribunals .

However if a employer offers to settle it doesn't clear the employee of any offence . It is important not to be bullied by them , RM's tactics are usually to reinstate but with a warning still hanging over them , even if the original case was built on sand /somebody sacked on the flimsiest pretexts .

In any case they throw money at these ET's as it's apparently cheaper than redundancy .
No worries Norbert, my case is in now against RM for unfair dismissal plus 3 other complaints (the old wilfull delay) :roll:
The current ET delay is around 5 months, thats for non difficult cases ie a dismissal. RM even when told by the ET to reinstate, do not have to, more compensation will be awarded however. An ET does not like to reinstate for obvious reasons!
Hi Hantsman, have you got simpson millar in your case or are you taking it on yourself, just wondering if you have the same legal people that I had in my ET.
brothermagrew
Posts: 3015
Joined: 06 Aug 2007, 16:38
Gender: Male
Location: Shares a border with England to the south.

Re: dismissal

Post by brothermagrew »

Bullying Managers/Employers and The Diversionary Dismissal:
In order to justify an employer's action (for example dismissal) against an individual where there are few, inadequate or no grounds for that action, prodigious and sometimes bizarre efforts are expended to support and vindicate the decision. This usually takes the form of finding a mistake, or series of mistakes, invariably trivial and insignificant, that the person has made at sometime during their career in the company (or in their private life or even before they joined the company) and using this as a basis of substantiation.

This is a diversionary tactic, distracting attention away from the real cause of this situation, which is the bully's behaviour and possibly the fact that management had closed ranks behind the bully. It also has the added advantage of spreading confusion. The victim is put on the spot and feels obliged to justify, explain, excuse or apologise for the indiscretion. The genisis of the urge to explain is guilt. You have a right not to feel guilty, or you have a right not to be made to feel guilty. This is an opportunity to assert that right.

There are other benefits to using this tactic. In a hearing, especially a tribunal, the panel members will become bored with the long, rambling, confusing and largely irrelevant dialogue which degenerates into claim, counter-claim, justification, counter-justification, etc ad naseum. Panel members quickly tire, confusion stimulates irritation and boredom, and the focus is lost. By default, the panel's decision will go to the employer.

Also, the more explanation, justification, excuse and apology that can be elicited, the more ammunition the aggressor obtains with which to crucify their victim. When the dialogue is exhausted (it may last several hours or several days), the aggressor is able to summarise by painting a most uncomplimentary picture of the victim using their own words.

Suggested response: first, if a mistake was made, admit the error succintly, without justification, elaboration, excuse or apology. Make the admission only once. "You are correct, a mistake did occur. Thank you for bringing it to everyone's attention."

In so doing, you pull the rug from under the aggressor's feet, denying them the opportunity for in-depth analysis. If the incident was a long time ago, add (replace the words in square brackets as appropriate);

"As you know, this took place [xx months/years] ago and in choosing to focus on an incident from so long ago, you reveal a desperation which itself is a tacit admission of the inappropriateness of your action."

Then, without pausing, draw attention to the obsessive and singular focus that the other side have chosen to adopt, its purpose as a diversionary and confusion-generating tactic, its irrelevance both to the performance of the individual in question and to the circumstances surrounding the action. If appropriate you can also take this opportunity to go on the offensive - many bullies have careers littered with mistakes and failings for example:


"In highlighting this trivial and unimportant incident, you are choosing to draw attention to the number of mistakes, errors, omissions, oversights [etc - you can go to town on this] which [the bully] has made over the last [number of] years. These include [a long prepared list - be as specific as possible] which call into question [the bully's] competence to carry out the duties and responsibilities of [position] and further cause everyone present to askhow such performance contributes to achieving the aims and objectives of [the organisation]."


Each time you are attacked, remind everyone publicly that: We are here to examine the behaviour of the [bully] and your repeated attempts to divert us from that objective by focusing on a trivial or irrelevant [fact or allegation] only serves to highlight your lack of evidence in support of the course of action you have chosen to take."

If the other side persists in pressing this angle of attack, repeat the defence again and again - as often as necessary. After each third or fourth time, draw attention to the persistence: "I have drawn attention [number] times to the fact that you are choosing to focus on an incident which is of no relevance [and who's existance is not in question]. I regret that you choose repeatedly to waste [the tribunal's] time pursuing this line of scrutiny. In so doing, however, you are admitting that you have no real evidence to present, otherwise you would be presenting it. Our reason for being here today is to examine the behaviour of the [bully] and I ask you to remain focused on that objective."

Alternatively, or addisionally, the following statement could provide a suitable defence:


As justification for [action] on the grounds of "[alleged reasons]", the [management] have chosen to focus singularly and obsessively on [mistake] of [how long ago], the relevnce of which today cannot be ascertained by any sane intelligent individual and for which a full explanation was provided on [date], accepted by you, [and kept on record]. In bringing [the employer] into disrepute in such a public manner; you have raised serious doubts about the fitness, integrity and competence of [senior management and personnel] of a [status e.g. prestigious] [company] which is a major player in [market].

The relentless persecution of a hard-working [and by your own assessment - quote here from employee personnel record] employee who has sought throughout solely to perform their duties in support of the company's objectives warrants investigation at the highest level in the interests of shareholders, taxpayers, [other stakeholders] and ultimately justice."



Vary the wording according to the circumstances. You are advised to have representation, either legal, union, professional or other independent person. If you feel your statements could be considered libellous (written) or slanderous (verbal), you must seek legal advise first.

It is important that in all conflicts you focus solely on the behaviours of the person or persons involved (e.g. "You have behaved foolishly"), and not on their person ("You are foolish"). The chances of being accused of libel or slander are reduced, and this approach gives the other side little or nothing to turn against you. The style is more assertive and you are likely to be regarded as a person with a high or higher degree of maturity.
"Today’s workplace has become heartless and soulless. Employees are seen as units of labour, automatons, functionaries, objects for achieving designated tasks, and as costs to be minimised."