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One wave

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venom
Posts: 201
Joined: 03 Nov 2009, 17:25
Gender: Male
Location: leaving in half a walk and working to time

Re: One wave

Post by venom »

halfull wrote:the union should tell them to get lost & get another plan! This one is damaging to our members! end of!
Tell them to make us all part time but keep our pay exactly the same! fulltime pay for partime work! See how they react to unrealistic proposals!
Nobody should be made to walk longer than we already do or deliver on foot in the dark, both are a h&s disaster! How many police officers do you see walking the streets in high crime areas when its pitch black? or any areas at all? you never see it! We will be expected under these plans to walk the dark streets at 5-6pm! or how about on a heavy day if people go 2 hours over their time? 8pm delivering post on foot! what a joke! Tell them to come up with another plan!
there are no heavy days anymore only enough to lapse apparently in my office :mad
wannabeek
Posts: 996
Joined: 27 Apr 2011, 00:49
Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by wannabeek »

dingo wrote:... Additionally this is an urban strategy , it cannot be the same for rural or remote places which are too far from mail centres.
So it's an urban-only scenario then? So does this mean that every DO out in the sticks (those that were totally unaffected by any threat of whistl ever encroaching on their territory, for example) need not be concerned about this one wave scenario?

That would make a massive difference to the number of posties nationwide affected by this, and also therefore how much support there would be for a national strike about it. Selfish, maybe but I really can't see our local guys out in the wilderness going without pay to support the interests of city posties.
Last edited by wannabeek on 20 Jan 2016, 19:50, edited 2 times in total.
wacko74
EX ROYAL MAIL
Posts: 1572
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Re: One wave

Post by wacko74 »

I've previously done overtime delivering at 4-6pm in the dark in the winter, aside from all the obvious H&S issues that have already been mentioned there's also the simple fact that it takes FAR longer to deliver letters in the dark, having to stop and hold each letter up into any available light to try and read the address then very gingerly walking down dark paths trying your best to look out for steps and other obstacles. I reckon it takes around 3x as long to deliver in the dark compared to delivering in daylight.
motherhubbard
Posts: 1001
Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 17:13
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Location: in the cupboard

Re: One wave

Post by motherhubbard »

halfull wrote:the union should tell them to get lost & get another plan!
Or what? We'll go on strike?
In the past few years we have managed a few days of national strike action and they were called off? Why?
There is a possibility that strike action will drive away customers. It isn't like the old days when the mail would just stack up until we returned to clear it with overtime.

The choice is stark. Either we accept later deliveries or we accept a majority p/t workforce and it is unlikely that will be achieved without compulsory redundancies.

Good luck to anyone who wants to fight the plans - you have my full support but I don't believe for one minute this fight is "winnable" (whatever that means)
Never let the hand you hold, hold you down.
Martin Walsh
Posts: 4272
Joined: 19 Sep 2007, 20:12
Location: neverland

Re: One wave

Post by Martin Walsh »

Oh if it was so easy to say we not having it and Royal Mail drop all their plans then we would still have 2 deliveries ! This is what happens in privatised companies they want more profit and the biggest way to do that is too reduce the wage bill , sell the estate and instead of have work sorted and prep manually they get more automation.

We all said to Royal Mail we not having it but there is no such thing as a one sided agreement.

Fish for years Royal Mail have been trying to get business to post earlier but most companies want a later collection rather than an earlier one. So what would we get on the first wave ? All the work within an 100 miles or 200 miles but we have a USO obligation and you could not do that for work posted say in Glasgow and is going to Bristol to be delivered it has to be collected , run through the outward mail centre either flown down or driven to NDC and then driven to Bristol and then run through the inward mail centre and then through the MPU and then taken to the delivery office ?

Glenno this is not a race for information , most divisional reps only got the information just before Christmas and whilst we have seen the slides on the wasall trail and modelling of Glasgow MC inward catchment area , Sheffield inward catchment area , Wolverhampton , South Midlands , Jubillee , Mount and NHC and Plymouth . There will be a national briefing and I am sure more communication on this issues. It just happens that we had meetings planned anyway.
halfull
EX ROYAL MAIL
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Re: One wave

Post by halfull »

motherhubbard wrote:
halfull wrote:the union should tell them to get lost & get another plan!
Or what? We'll go on strike?
In the past few years we have managed a few days of national strike action and they were called off? Why?
There is a possibility that strike action will drive away customers. It isn't like the old days when the mail would just stack up until we returned to clear it with overtime.

The choice is stark. Either we accept later deliveries or we accept a majority p/t workforce and it is unlikely that will be achieved without compulsory redundancies.

Good luck to anyone who wants to fight the plans - you have my full support but I don't believe for one minute this fight is "winnable" (whatever that means)
If we all talk like this then i agree nothing is winnable, luckily many of us are up for a fight which will force a compromise, if we lie down we will get walked over, our union must stand up & fight for us! our jobs & our futures! And we must back our union (if they come up with a good deal).
IloveMYredTROLLEY!
EX ROYAL MAIL
Posts: 1923
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Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by IloveMYredTROLLEY! »

How about:-

Start at 0730, bundle up mail prepped the previous day, then out on delivery.

OPGs expected to take 20 minutes meal relief while on delivery.

Come back from delivery, deal with non-delivered items, then prep the one wave of mail that arrived at the depot while we were on delivery.

OPGs prep until their contracted hours are up, not just their own frame, those that want overtime stay back after the ~1530 contract hours finish to continue doing frame prep.

Earliest any OPGs can go home is 20 minutes before their contract hours finish, so ~1510, if they have 20 minutes allowance left taking account of the mandatory delivery meal relief.

RM would instantly gain so many "man hours" that are normally gifted away to the runners despite job and finish being supposedly dead for ~5 years, they get their one wave "optimisation," OPGs get a better chance of catching people before they leave for work and get to finish delivery before it gets dark and colder during the winter (plus get more done before the "midday sun" in summer).
parforthewalk
Posts: 149
Joined: 10 Feb 2013, 17:23
Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by parforthewalk »

"motherhubbard" wrote:


'The choice is stark. Either we accept later deliveries or we accept a majority p/t workforce and it is unlikely that will be achieved without compulsory redundancies'.


Yes I would agree, it's a stark reality! Part-time 80% Full time 20% probable workforce ratio.

How many would be prepared to move down from 39hrs to 35hrs, based on a 7hr day (9am-4pm) inc 30min M/R?

If the pay rate remained the same as current 39hrs, how many would consider it?
steve1873
Posts: 792
Joined: 08 Oct 2007, 13:55

Re: One wave

Post by steve1873 »

parforthewalk wrote:"motherhubbard" wrote:


'The choice is stark. Either we accept later deliveries or we accept a majority p/t workforce and it is unlikely that will be achieved without compulsory redundancies'.


Yes I would agree, it's a stark reality! Part-time 80% Full time 20% probable workforce ratio.

How many would be prepared to move down from 39hrs to 35hrs, based on a 7hr day (9am-4pm) inc 30min M/R?

If the pay rate remained the same as current 39hrs, how many would consider it?
This would equate to a near 10% pay rise. However, what would be the cost? Put it this way, if they give us a 10% rise, you can be certain they are going to want to make savings that totally eclipse that 10%. A shorter working week is attractive obviously (I am 35 hours so would have no effect on me other than a wage rise), but I would be very nervous about what the business required in return.
Spigot bearing
Posts: 83
Joined: 18 Dec 2015, 16:22
Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by Spigot bearing »

Packets ( parcels ) and letters don't mix well. Royal Mail Group has two companies delivering essentially the same product, any reasonable businessman knows this is a recipe for disaster when shareholders are knocking on your door for ever increasing profits.
SpacePhoenix
MAIL CENTRES/PROCESSING
Posts: 12098
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Re: One wave

Post by SpacePhoenix »

IloveMYredTROLLEY! wrote:How about:-

Start at 0730, bundle up mail prepped the previous day, then out on delivery.

OPGs expected to take 20 minutes meal relief while on delivery.

Come back from delivery, deal with non-delivered items, then prep the one wave of mail that arrived at the depot while we were on delivery.

OPGs prep until their contracted hours are up, not just their own frame, those that want overtime stay back after the ~1530 contract hours finish to continue doing frame prep.

Earliest any OPGs can go home is 20 minutes before their contract hours finish, so ~1510, if they have 20 minutes allowance left taking account of the mandatory delivery meal relief.

RM would instantly gain so many "man hours" that are normally gifted away to the runners despite job and finish being supposedly dead for ~5 years, they get their one wave "optimisation," OPGs get a better chance of catching people before they leave for work and get to finish delivery before it gets dark and colder during the winter (plus get more done before the "midday sun" in summer).
Probably wouldn't work - what about 1st class stuff T24s, SDs?
daveyeff
Posts: 4699
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Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by daveyeff »

dingo, in all of this, if and when later starts come in, what about the part timers? I am full time and currently start at 6.50 wed, thur, fri, 6.55 sat. 7.15 mons & tues.. my driver is 25 hour contract and starts an hour & half later than me. meaning he starts 8.25 wed thur & fri. 8.30 sat and 8.50 mon & tues. if we went to ..say, 9.30 start, does that mean he will be staring at 11 am.. the idea of cutting indoor work so we can get out quicker would be blown out of the water if you still have to wait around for your partner to come in??.... or have we missed something?
fishtank
Posts: 19732
Joined: 28 Sep 2007, 17:22
Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by fishtank »

If we are to be market driven we have to understand what our market wants.

Are 1st class and 2nd class letters still a relevant product to offer?, I would suggest the vast majority of business and even domestic customers simply want the item delivered in a reasonable time frame, perhaps 2-3 days. Not being tied to a rigid next day delivery obligation would give us much more flexibility to find a resourcing model that suits both employer and employees.

This is a radical position we find ourselves in and the usual tub thumping and threat of strike will do little to stop the changes planned, I think personally that the union knows this but some areas will put up a fight to protect their own patch even temporarily at the expense of others, we've been there before.

The truth is we need some out of the box thinking and if that means pushing for a change in the USO to protect jobs then so be it.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
Pat Greendale
Posts: 3
Joined: 16 Dec 2015, 14:43
Gender: Male

Re: One wave

Post by Pat Greendale »

IloveMYredTROLLEY! wrote:How about:-

Start at 0730, bundle up mail prepped the previous day, then out on delivery.

OPGs expected to take 20 minutes meal relief while on delivery.

Come back from delivery, deal with non-delivered items, then prep the one wave of mail that arrived at the depot while we were on delivery.

OPGs prep until their contracted hours are up, not just their own frame, those that want overtime stay back after the ~1530 contract hours finish to continue doing frame prep.

Earliest any OPGs can go home is 20 minutes before their contract hours finish, so ~1510, if they have 20 minutes allowance left taking account of the mandatory delivery meal relief.

RM would instantly gain so many "man hours" that are normally gifted away to the runners despite job and finish being supposedly dead for ~5 years, they get their one wave "optimisation," OPGs get a better chance of catching people before they leave for work and get to finish delivery before it gets dark and colder during the winter (plus get more done before the "midday sun" in summer).
Well said! We've thought this for a while. Scrap first class - have all one class. Tracked and SD's done on the morning of delivery still to compete. Make the runners work their time.
Martin Walsh
Posts: 4272
Joined: 19 Sep 2007, 20:12
Location: neverland

Re: One wave

Post by Martin Walsh »

Of course we need some radical thinking but most things have been thought off before. Lets not be to critical of strike action or the threat of it we owe everything from the death in service provision in our pensions , our annual leave entitlement , our rate of pay , our paid meal reliefs , paid sick leave up to 6 months , shift payments , harmonisation of part time conditions , the 5 day week from strike action. None of that was given freely.

Lets think this through we have a universal service obligation which protects jobs and we now want to down dial this ? Why Part of our USO licence given by Ofcom requires Royal Mail to ensure that they deliver at least 94 our of 100 first class letters the next day. Royal Mail face fines in some areas where this has dropped below 91.5 from the regulator. Yet some want Royal Mail and the CWU to go back to Ofcom and say can we only deliver 60 or 70 letters out of an 100 so we can continue to finish at a reasonable time. Do you really think this regulator who"s recommendations are due out in April will agree ?

The USO protects jobs but it does require the same service standards throughout the UK and this means that if you post a letter in Corwall the previous day first class and it is for Edinburgh than 94 out of every 100 has to be delivered. You cannot do this if you suddenly say well lets only deliver first class up to 5 in evening or 4 in the afternoon.

Now the comment about parcel force and Royal Mail doing the same thing , this is simply not factual. Royal Mail deliver more parcels in one week than Parcelforce do in a whole year. Parcel Force have 25% owner drivers and significant levels of agency staff.

The only Royal Mail can remain competitive in the parcels market is if they deliver letters / flats at the same time. The simply reason is that if your separated parcels from letters that our terms and conditions mean we will be too expensive. Lets look at this in more detail for a National Rate Full timer on £405.81 plus £23.58 the hourly rate is £11.00 per hour you then add the employers national insurance contributions, sick pay , holiday pay , pension cost , uniform , CDV cost and wear and tear and derv and the rate comes out at around £16 per hour. Most parcel companies pay so much less and E courier who Royal Mail recently brought pay £4 per successful delivered drop, Amazon pay slightly less. These employees in many cases have to supply their own van , derv , insurance and they get no paid holidays , sick leave or pensions.

So if Royal Mail delivered letters separately than they would be too expensive to capture more parcels.

We do need to think radical , could we have duties which did a delivery on one day with an hours break in the middle on a similar basis as a tachograph where they could not move the van they had to report and have the break. Could the following day that individual only do a 3 hour delivery span and then do a collection and returns process with some facing and trying for the mail centre. Could some on another day do a firms delivery which would still be an early morning delivery ?

Could some cities introduce rotates and capture some delivery slots in the evening between 18:00 22:00. This is a growing market as the trail in London has shown. What about annualised hours where you have to have an agreed set of hours but minuimn rest periods. What about increasing annual leave and having less time at work. Now delivery equipment including electric self powered delivery methods. What about better buy down terms for those who want and can afford to take a shorter delivery round. What about paying an allowance for a later delivery especially on a Saturday ? What about asking the staff within the unit how would you design a new delivery blue print and what are the offices requirements not just the mouthpieces. Why would we not rotate the drivers , collections and where you have CSS operators. Why don't we insist for a 35 hour gross working week.we currently if you discount meal reliefs work 35 hours 40 there is no reason why we cannot get to around 30 hours of work time with paid meal reliefs on top and of course we should be looking to increase these if long spans are the only work in 5 years time a delivery post person has other than what i have listed with a 1 hour break in the middle. They cannot be deliveries as they are now which are not planned , new delivery points are not reviews , attendance calls are not reviewed and the level of work is not reviewed. The other factor i think has to be in any deal is no more absorption. Remember if a full timer is working 30 hour week full time divide that by 5 and they work 6 hours per day which means with meal relief , loading the van , collecting the reg , to and from delivery points the chances are they will work a maximum of 5 hours or less on delivery.


Now this are thinking outside the box. Obviously this is plan b and only if they introduce some of the measures in their plan would we ever consider longer spans not under 1 wave, However first and foremost the only way we are going to force Royal Mail to alter their plan or change it will be to be united and strong and ensure we get the best deal if this strategy comes in either fully or part.