CWU LIVE – Your Royal Mail Questions Answered with Dave Ward and Martin Walsh

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https://www.cwu.org/video/cwu-live-your ... tin-walsh/

Upload Date: November 7 2025
It’s a big session for our Royal Mail Group members on this week’s episode of CWU Live. Dave Ward, General Secretary, and Martin Walsh, Deputy General Secretary (Postal), sit down with us to discuss all the latest Royal Mail updates and take members questions.

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Anyone listen to this?
Can’t be bothered to hear the bull
They must know by the views they’ve lost the support

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Anyone listen to this?
Can’t be bothered to hear the bull
They must know by the views they’ve lost the support

I wondered if it's possible can someone please convert the audio to text so we can skim over it and only read any important or interesting bits, can't be arsed to waste an hour watching the whole load of shite

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Hello everybody. Welcome to CW live. My name is Chris Webb, head of communications. With me tonight is our general secretary, Dave Ward. Evening Dave. >> Hi everybody. >> And our deputy general secretary postal, Martin Walsh. Evening mine. >> Hi everyone. >> Good to have you both with us. Uh good morning better than even these two though is to have all of you as members with us. We've got a really important session tonight. Last night we had around 800 local CW representatives come on to speak to Dave and to speak to Martin. We had an excellent session with them where the officers laid out exactly what is at stake and with both EP group and raw mail with the government with Ofcom and all the issues we have to face and all the issues we're trying to tackle and we had a brilliant debate and we're looking for more of the same tonight. a session where actually, you know, we turn our fire where it needs to be directed, where actually things like the new entrance terms and conditions, which the union's been fighting since day one to reverse, and things like the USO where we're demanding fairness and demanding benefits for you, we get everyone in behind the union and recognize that it is only the union that is fighting to achieve on those things for you. So, if you are on here, we want tonight to be a a session where we show our power, we show our unity, we show our strength to Roma. So, if you are back in the union, then please put I'm with my union in the comments now. And let's have a massive show of strength. Let's not have a thing where we get into each other from the off. Let's show our strength. I'm with my union. And then we'll get into so many comments. Today we're going to have Dave Martin talking about the EP deal, the relationship with them. Martin's going to give you an update on the section five negotiations, the new entrance terms and conditions, our proposal on USO, the industrial and employee relations reset, and crucially Dave and Martin will talk about the defining thing, which is what we're going to do about it. Uh, so that's the session. On top of always, I've got in front of me the screen, I can see all of your live comments and I have to sort of make a little bit of a plea to you in the thousands and thousands. I'm going to have to group them, but we will be taking loads of your questions tonight because this is your session. So, without any further ado, Dave, I want to not see if you can position where we are with EP Group, uh the agreement, the status of agreement, and an opening statement from you. >> Okay. So, uh hi everyone. Um look, we we've always seen um the EPCW agreement as the foundation of our future. Anybody who reads the agreement will understand that the spirit, the content, the clarity of the words within the agreement um couldn't be a further departure from what you're experiencing day in day out and what you have been experiencing in the last three or four years. Um it really did set out a different direction for the company um for us and for most importantly for our members. Um and you know there are times when we will give credit to EP group um and there are things that they've done uh that are definitely different to Royal Mau um and wouldn't have been done under the previous regime. Let me just kind of set that context. Um, one, you know, we would not have got a pay deal um that was separate from the USO had it not been for EP. The Royal Mail Management that Martin uh has to deal with um and the officers have to deal with. Uh they did not want to separate those two issues because they wanted to basically use pay um as a vehicle to drive through USO change. Um they also uh have shown some ambition. Um they've they've shown that in the way with locker banks where they've invested in that. Now I know some people might say well locker banks you know will that harm us that I think the important point to remember is that Roau is competing in a wider market and that's where the market is. The market is where you see it everywhere now. uh and Royal Mau had to be in that place even as a defensive strategy. Uh the other area I think where they've shown ambition recently that you would never have seen with Royal Mau is the investment in Collect Plus the shops which we want to see branded as effectively Royal Mau on the high street. Now, we would have preferred that was done by rejoining Royal Mau with a post office, but I think it is a sign um that they're open to other ideas about how you can grow the business and we've certainly had some good conversations with them. Where we're having difficulties and difficulties with Royal Mau is over the two fundamental issues um that we want to move forward. one is new entrance terms and conditions and EP agreed to equalize new entrance terms and conditions. Now they're saying to us that they want to do that um and that they will commit to the agreement but we can't find at the moment the mechanism um that unlocks that and the cost of that uh and this is why I also have to talk about the wider context of where Royal Mau is operating at the moment um is the fundamental issue. Um so there's that. The other one is USO. Before we go into some of the points they're putting to us because you need to hear those, let me be clear that the union is not going to agree Royal Mau's USO model. Martin and the team um done some good work with our offices that went forward in the pilots. That was never easy. But what we know from that and had we not gone through some of the pain of that for those offices uh we wouldn't have understood whether or not that model actually works and we are very clear that with the evidence based on Royal Mau's own metrics um that is not going to work. So we want to be clear with you we have told Royal Mau we've told EP group we are not going to reach an agreement on that model. That's clearly created some tensions. And what is also very clear is that the level of savings that was projected by the previous Royal Male regime um and Offcom who have talked in the round of between 300 and400 million pounds per year that was going to be saved by the introduction of this new reform of the USO. We know that's not going to materialize and that is causing tension between all parties. There's no getting away from that. There's no hiding that. Um from Royal Mau's point of view, uh they uh are still in the place because there's a hardcore unfortunately of Royal Mal managers who are still in the place. You see it play out in quality of service failures. You see it in some of the actions of the managers in your offices who are still entrenched in that other way of working. Uh and they are some of them it has to be said openly trying to sabotage the deal that we reached with EP Group. But where where it comes to the four is that EP group are saying that we were told when we bought Royal Mau that we're going to be able to save around 300 million pounds a year and we believe that they recognize now that that isn't going to happen and there's an issue there then with Ofcom with Royal Mau and with EP and with ourselves about they will say Well, we bought something. We've had a hike in national insurance and you know, it's not working out financially the same way that we thought. Now, I'm going to say to you that we have been very clear to EP, we do not accept that argument at all. They're a multinational company. Uh they're a company that has investment to put in. They didn't just make an agreement with a CW. They made an agreement with the country and with the government and it's important that we focus on some elements of that later on today to understand what we now need to do to deliver the EP agreement in full. We are not sitting here saying that they've walked away from negotiations cuz they haven't and we've put forward sensible alternatives that Martin will go through on both the USO because we know we need to reform the USO but it has to work. Um and we also have put sensible alternatives forward on how we equalize and the journey to equalizing new entrance terms and conditions. We are told by them that they will come forward with a proposal on that, but as it stands today, Martin's been in other negotiations and he'll report on that a little bit later. Um we haven't seen that proposal. So we're in that place. So, look, what we're saying to you is is we are 100% committed to that agreement. Um, we will deliver on that agreement, but we need your help. Uh, and we're going to explain later on today, um, after we do some of the initial questions what we basically set out with our reps last night, the plan that we want to put pressure on Royal Mount uh, and EP to deliver on the commitments that they made. Now, it's also important that we set out this wider context of where Offcom are coming from. We understand that Ofcom um had to find Royal Mau. That's Royal Mau's fault. They're running a broken resourcing model. You all know it. Um Martin will give you information tonight on the situation with how many people are leaving Royal Mau and how long they stay and you're seeing that play out in your offices. But they are trying to defend the indefensible as though somehow quality of service will all be put right if um USO reform comes in. And what we're saying is no, the the foundation has to be fixed first. And that's what the agreement says uh and that's what we're going to um make sure that they deliver. So, you know, when it comes to uh some of the arguments Royal Mau putting forward at the moment, we're very confident that we can open up this debate with Offcom and with the government um to explain our position and to set out the truth of what's really been happening. And what we want you to do is help us in setting that out. You know what it's like with trying to deliver the workload that's there at the moment. And it's we're not clearing we're not achieving quality of targets. And whilst as I said we understand that offcom find Royal Mail that's not a sustainable position and actually we think it's time to turn the heat up on Ofcom as well. We've always been consistent and been honest that it was never going to achieve the level of savings and that they had to fix the resourcing model. So when we set out our plan later and we'd love to work with Royal Mau on this and one good thing is some of the conversations we've had with EP if we can overcome these two hurdles they are actually far more progressive on working with us to change the way that regulation impacts on Royal Mau than we've ever seen from any previous Royal Mau leadership. um they understand the issues. So, we are talking to government. Um we've got meetings lined up. We've already had conversations with government, but we're going to meet the Secretary of State in a couple of weeks time. And we're going to set out our concerns. We're also going to talk to all MPs and this is where you come in and we'll explain that a little bit later because we want to turn um the heat up. uh we want to make sure that your voice and what is really happening in the workplace is understood more by the public, the media uh and also politicians. So I think I've said enough for the time being. Let Martin uh come in with a little bit more on some of the detail and then we'll pick up from there. >> Thanks Dave. Excellent. And thank you to everyone also who put their comments up saying with the union. I saw hundreds of them. That was absolutely fantastic. Exactly what we want and loads and loads of questions and and comments. We're going to get to them shortly. Martin, just before we get into some of that, um, you've been in negotiations with Royal Mail this week, yesterday, today. Hot off the press update for members where we are on some of these key issues from section 5. >> Yeah, look, try and uh, hi everyone. First off, in terms of new entrance, I think it's important to recognize uh, we are not going to agree uso without equalization and a first step. That's our position. and we've stated that timeless to rale and we're going to make sure uh we deliver equalization. We are the only group who are calling for equalization. Uh rule mill if they had their way they deployed new entrance because they were 20% less than legacy and they wanted to continue with that. We're determined to equalize but equally the way you can help us in this is they r all over our membership numbers. They know on new entrance there's only 54% members uh but that varies in different locations from 70% to 40%. joining the union fighting to support and get equalization is the right thing to do. So we've put a proposal on equalization uh which we believe is a fair proposal. Raw M are considering it. EP are considering it. I think the initial feedback is they think is too costly. It introduces equalization too quickly. Uh but we're determined to make sure we got a first step and an equalization time scale. Equalization means a delivery supplement. It means the same hours. It means paid meal reliefs and it means they're entitled to perform scheduled attendance. They're entitled to the same hourly rate both for national outer and inner London. uh and that's our plan and we're uh trying to do that as quick as possible. The facts are is since 1st of December 2022 when new entrance came in 27,000 new entrance have left the business. It's a revolving door and 50% of all new entrance leave within the first year. This is why there's a resourcing crisis uh and clearly why we're putting forward a faster pace in terms of equalization. The other issue we've put on the table here is that no uh you know new entrant who's been here more than 3 years. So the first time anyone could be here 3 years was from the 1st of December. But it's at that point they should be equalized. uh and we've also proposed that when a legacy person leaves uh the industry they're replaced and equalized by new entrant along with a number of other steps uh which help new entrance. So we've put the proposal law considering it. In terms of the other parts of section five, we've had the last two days in talks where there's been some you know positive talks. We've now concluded a conduct code, a discipline new discipline code. Uh you would remember during the 2015 conduct code during the dispute it was abused. Uh we've now got a new procedure subject to the postal executive agreeing that that will be a branch ballot and we've got a new attendance procedure which has been agreed today. There's also talks on a safeguard in the mail which was uh an annex to the conduct code which caused a lot of dismissals uh and we've addressed that in the right way. Uh, and we've also made some progress on reducing agency. And this is important because you reduce agency, you introduce more part-time to full-time, and you introduce more jobs in the industry. At the moment, there's 8,000 new uh full-time equivalent agency staff in Lor Mill and uh 15,000 agency slots are in place for more than 13 weeks. The agreement allows us to replace those 13 weeks with a part-time to full-time permanent, a transfery, or basically an agency conversion. uh and we've got to start uh getting rid of agency and the reduction in costs from agency will go to increase overtime and essay rates. So there's a win-win situation around tackling agency. Uh we've also talked around the reset of industrial and employee relations uh and what how does that happen? There's letters being exchanged with the CEO. There's other aspects of that, but it's also identifying where units are broken in terms of employee industrial relations. How do we get in there and change them? There's still managers under our business to run bullying out there. We've got to change that. We've got to do that quickly. Uh in terms of the incentive scheme, we've had uh two sessions over the last 48 hours in terms of incentive and there's a plan there which we're going to pilot some delivery offices in the new year and some mail centers. Uh and then we talked around improving sick pay. Uh if you look at sick pay, every industry since pandemic has increased sick pay uh sorry increased sick leave from me mental health, long covid uh and other sort of ailments. But what's changed in rural mail is short-term sick used to be bigger than long-term sick. Now it's reversed where 70% of a unit would be long-term sick and 30% which would be short-term sick. If you looked at 5.5 percentage which would remove SSP, there's tw uh there's 49% of delivery offices who would come off SSP from uh day one. And there's 23 out of 37 mail centers who would do so likewise. So we're in talks with a company to try uh and move that issue on from January next year and those talks are continuing. So on section five we've had a lot of talks but the real issue is new entrance. We've made progress elsewhere, but obviously the USO, which I'll cover on in a m moment, Chris, uh is obviously a massive factor because if you think about this, we're asking for equalization and we're proposing to reduce what Rome would get out of USO. Uh and we're asking that to be faced, which is the other element in terms of his talks. >> Thanks, man. We we will cover those issues in in some depth. Dave, a couple of questions for you. Now, first one, uh I don't never thought we'd be having a debate about stamps on our uh live show, but I've noticed over the last 24 hours loads of our members saying that they've got their Christmas stamps. Uh one, they were remarkably surprised about how early they came this year. Uh but two, they've been downgraded from first class to second class. I mean, I can't get my head around it. I mean, this is the company that actually owns the post. So, I mean, there's there's not a significant cost here, is there? Uh, but just from a visual perspective and the signal that it sends to our members, and they clearly think the same thing. I mean, it's just not right, is it? >> No. And I mean, it's a total joke and it devalues um in our members eyes what the company thinks of them. And I don't know who's come up with the idea. Um and and because even the cost of it, there isn't a cost of it. They work for the post, they produce the stamps, they they give them to their own workers. I mean, it is just madness. Um what it illustrates more though is what we're trying to talk about about why, you know, some of these things you're not seeing the change at local level. Um is because we have to be honest. There's a hardcore of managers who are now in a position where they do not like the agreement because it reverses pretty much every part of the strategy that Royal Mau move forward the previous regime. Uh and they are trying to undermine it and they are so entrenched in their views on how you deal with working people, our members. Um but EP have got to step up, you I mean, we're past the stage where we we're not here to give excuses as to that. We're just telling you the truth about why these people don't like the agreement. And EP have got to start sorting some of these people out. And the current Royal M management, you know, the senior people, we think some of them are saying to us they want to do the right thing. They want to work with us. They want to deliver all aspects of the agreement. They're not saying that they're not going to deliver it, including new entrance, but they ain't stepping forward quick enough um and tackling these issues. And when you you look at this, you know, what a terrible message it sends to your own workforce. I mean, what they should be doing is is putting 150 quid on the Christmas bonus or or something like that, you know, not not giving out secondass stamps. I'm not saying that they're not useful for people and no one's going to, you know, is saying that. Are they? Our members are saying it isn't a good look. Um, it did surprise us when we saw some of the names that were on the letter. I thought that was a bit strange as well. There was about 10 people >> um who probably a lot of our members don't even know that who they are. We know them and we definitely know that at least two or three of them are the same people that led the other strategy. So, the question's got to be asked. we were told they'd moved on um or they're not involved anymore, but clearly some of them are. So, you know, I mean that that issue, we understand why it plays out. It's about changing uh the culture. It's about value. Ro will not succeed. Our members know this. Until they feel valued. Uh and until we look after people, we're never going to be able to be successful in this company. >> Paul Wright uh says maybe next year we'll bring back the seeds. So Paul's obviously a long time member I remember a comb as well for us bold men not too useful to come back to you again Dave if I can on the government so um you said in your opening um positioning piece there that you know raw male al group sorry also made a separate agreement with the government of this country to protect the postal service maintain the USO um the government were influential in the talks yourself Martin other people had during that period we then since then seen a bit of a reshuffle if you like from people like Johnny Reynolds who was a business secretary's now moved out now got Peter Kyle and I guess the members are wondering when we're talking about applying political pressure have we got any you know that the feedback I can see is they're not happy with the direction of the Labour party they don't have too much faith in us karma running on a a horse to save us save the post industry you know >> it's not about that is it we're not asking anybody to come and save us we're asking people to deliver on what they agree and uh the government's agreement was an important part of EP Group becoming the sole owner. Um I'm not going to sit here and Martin won't either and say that we've sat in front of EP Group and they're telling us that they're not going to deliver the deal. They're not saying that. Um and as we pointed out, we have to be fair. They have done some things including by the way and I'm not going to go into the detail of that, but you will know that we've had an ongoing issue um following the amount of people that were dismissed. We got them back. We got them some money. We've gone in further because of other evidence that we found. Um and EP Group have told Royal Mau to settle with further compensation. Now these sort of things have to play out a bit a little bit more privately. Let's see where that goes. But EP are different. I think we're satisfied that what we can't accept is the excuse that somehow EP um you know didn't realize that they wasn't going to get£300 million savings from the USO. Now what Royal Mau have done is promised them that they were going to get that and where we are with the government is we want the government to look into that. We want the government to look into how did Royal Mail come up with the numbers that they were ever going to save£300 million because you all know our members know that they took no account whatsoever of the chaos that they created. They took no account that the resourcing model is broken, that they can't keep staff, and yet they came up with these figures. Now, we want that debate. We want scrutiny. Whether that's via a select committee, whether that's bigger than that is what we're looking for. People need to be held accountable to how did they come up with those figures. With Offcom, it's the same debate. How did Ofcom come up with those figures? Uh, and we've made our submissions and we've consistently said that was never deliverable. So, what EP can't tell us is that we were nothing less than honest in telling them what they were buying to scale the problems. I think EP recognize that, but of course they're looking at it from a financial point of view at the moment and having agreed to pay deal and let's be honest, Royal Mau's management are telling them you shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have agreed the pay deal separate from the USO, but that was the right thing to do. Uh we want to find a resolution, but we do believe that the government needs to review hopefully with EP sitting in the room with us the progress of the agreement. It's not just our agreement, it's their agreement. So we are confident that we can apply the pressure that um makes the government look at this and make sure that it's implemented fairly. We're not asking them to save us. We can do that ourselves. But it's about now people being held to account for what they've agreed. Um I think EP and Royal Mail won't like some of what we're saying. We know that. Um because we're also saying that we are going to uh write to all MPs and we're going to set out exactly why quality of service is failing. We've had enough of listening to these fines and hearing what royal males say which at times is just outrageous just total and utter lies in terms of the real issues. They try and cover it up and it's not a sustainable position. You know, we're at the point again where our members will pay the price for the failures of Royal Mail Management um and their resourcing models and all the things the imposed revisions. We we're going to pay the price because Royal M won't be able to afford those fines. So, we've got to make sure that the government understand the current model of regulation has to change. We want the members to support us in this. We're going to do it via briefings, but we're also going to do it via uh a serious engagement exercise with the members, with the reps. We told the reps this yesterday where we essentially want you to back us one in telling Royal Mau that you're not going to support their their model um and we'll put an alternative forward on the USO. two that you know the reasons why that the quality of service is failing is because you can't keep staff and they've got to do something uh about new entrance pay terms and conditions because that's fair, that's right, that's what we agree. But we want you to back us in this wider campaign. We want you to help us um and we're going to supply you with things that can start to engage the public more, engage um politicians more and your own MPs on on how we're going to build and tell the truth. Uh postal workers are trusted. Uh I think the the public will believe postal workers far more than what they're going to believe Royal Mau. So it's time to widen this discussion and we're going to be coming out and telling you what that looks like. >> Just 30 seconds. I want to move on to the USO and new entrance from Martin. You said then EP group are different. Now if a postal worker may say since the ownership I've got a reasonable pay deal, but nothing earth shattering. They haven't followed through their promise on equalization on the first step. Nothing's changed in my workplace. They're not pulling up raw male who are lying openly about the success or otherwise of the USO pilots. And I've ch I've seen absolutely nothing at my level and an off delivery office or sorting office that that justifies us saying EP are different. So how would we respond to that? >> Well, I I think it's true, isn't it? In terms of where the members look at these situations, they are seeing nothing different and we understand that and that's why you know we are saying to EP you haven't done enough to change the culture in Royal Mount. You signed a deal that was going to sort out this culture. I mean the words couldn't be any clearer and they do need to change the whole managerial ethos and whilst I think there are managers out there who are decent managers you know I'm not saying every manager there would be people on this call know that their managers are decent managers there's too many who are deliberately undermining that agreement well EP need to step up their activities the new CEO was confirmed yesterday uh he needs to step up those activities. What Martin was talking about earlier on is that we are in discussion about letters that the CEOs uh and Daniel Katinsky will be writing to our members to tell them that they they are totally committed to that agreement. You know, we are having those conversations, but what's holding those conversations up and what Martin calls the reset of employing industrial relations is the reality that we can't agree on where we are with the USO. That that's created tensions. You know, us turning around and saying we're not supporting that that plan. Uh we we can't put a plan in that doesn't work. It just make the situation worse. We ain't moving from that position. uh and that is as you can imagine creating tension. What our members need to do is to support the union's plan. The local reps will be talking to you um and show your managers that how frustrated you are that nothing's changing. Don't blame the union. You know, it's there to be had. uh and I I think if you tell your managers that and the reps tell them that and carry out the plan that we've put forward then you will see things start to change. >> Thank you Dave. Uh for members who are in the comments talking about uh what about fleet what about passer force obviously this session is raw male group so everything that Martin and David are talking about covers you too and we will be doing separate section sessions with the officers in the coming weeks. Martin, um, I want to talk to you for a moment specifically around the USO. I don't think we need to go in. I think people can say that the pilots have failed. I mean, you know, Raw Mal's version is very different, but the truth obviously is the truth, isn't it, with the male failing and how many hours they're putting in, etc. People are keen to know, however, what the union has tabled and what you've TD in negotiations. So, could you talk people through the CW vision of uh, USO and what what members would get from that? >> Yeah. So look, it's important to recognize that we agreed 35 pilots and the evidence of those pilots, they're not working. Uh even though Raw Mel's own data, which they give us each week, only two units out of 35 are hitting all the equality targets. Uh and they've actually put 228 more jobs than they started with. So the whole point of USO from Offcom and Roy Mel was to save money. the pilots have actually spent money. Uh so we've been in talks with Royal Mail and I think they're committed to moving away from MDM. Uh and we've been talking about a heavy and light model. So the heavy and light model would be if you're a shared van, you got two walks there. One of those walks would be all the mail on one day and the other would just be first class tracked and parcels. first class is now uh about 12% of all over all traffic. Uh so you would then switch him over Monday to Friday. So every delivery would get all male every f every sort of uh 10 over 10 days, 5 days. Uh and that's the same model which Offcom has agreed. Uh and what we were talking around is every eight walks we would have seven people doing it. So one walk would be uh basically absorbed between the other seven duties. Romel see the seventh duty being reviewed after 12 weeks. We see that as yes you can review that and see whether you can go further. Uh but we see a seventh duty actually doing the work. Uh whereas ror would rather have a pressure person who does some work but isn't on an actual duty. That's the difference between us in terms of the current talks and the reason why that's important and you you look at new entrance you look at uh where we on pay and you look at Rail's profit I think EP and R saying we made a12 million pound profit we've paid pay which is 900 million over 3 years you're now down dialing any chance of a 300 million uh and the first phase would be 150 million on USO and you want equalization at a quicker route than we can afford and that's where the tensions are uh within the talks what does uh the the USO model given on a heavy and light one is it doesn't discriminate against non-drivers it allows individuals to stay on duties uh it gives an earlier Saturday uh 6 hour 55 Saturday it gives improved attendance patterns it gives more full-time jobs. Uh but it also allows for review of start times because the principle is you got work in there before wave 1 arrives. Uh and where raw mills modeled this in Cumbald, it would move start times on a Monday 30 minutes earlier and 15 minutes Tuesday to Saturday. Uh again that formula will be different to each unit. Uh and obviously that's something we are progressing in the talks. But where we've stuck on Chris is uh obviously rare have agreed it would go to uh 8 into seven but they would like to have the seventh duty as a floater rather than a fixed duty and we're not agreeing that at this moment in time. >> Thanks Martin Dave you want to come on the back? Just what what Martin was saying there. I think the biggest difference between us is that we believe that it can only be working based on proper resourcing being in place. One first two a model that is based on what's achievable in work not a financial target. And we are not signing up to any financial target. I mean these numbers no one can say based on the chaos that Royal Mau have created what whether there's going to be any savings and the point that Martin has said is that the evidence that's been put forward um from the pilots is that they don't save a penny it actually costs them more now some people might say and this is one of Royal Mal's arguments incidentally well why why don't you agree it then on that basis well they need to put the work back to where it should be, the staffing back to where it should be under any system. And what's crucial to that is that they keep staff and and where the company are trying to sort of move this forward by believing that somehow any model, whether it's their model, our model will work if you haven't got a regular staffing base is just a fantasy. and and the three things which are not taken into account is the imposed revisions which obviously when they've looked at pilots places like Stockton South End have had sort of upwards of 30 odd duties put in and then Stockton now 54 duties uh restored. Uh the second element is resourcing crisis which obviously new entrance leaving and the third is the increase in doorstep transactions from tracked uh which is causing a real problem out there. So obviously what we're looking at is a model uh which means every unit is resourced. So what we have agreed is you wouldn't go live until you've got everyone in place before you deploy. Uh and therefore have you got an indoor plan? It's a yes or go or no go uh process. So there are elements in there to make sure it's full resource. But obviously what this would do the four into three model which is ODM was going to lose 11,000 jobs. This proposal at best is six and a half thousand. Uh so there's a massive reduction in terms of our proposal to where Rale wanted to get to. >> Thanks Martin. I want to move to the subject come back to you as well. I know Dave's going to want to speak on this as well new entrance terms and conditions. Um you I think you said in the brief you two earlier in the week that 27,000 new entrance have left raw male since your introduction of the grade. I mean it's a fast. You can see on our pages, you can see in workplaces, uh they just can't get the staff, you know, uh it's a ridiculous scenario. On top of that though, we have a lot of members who have put their faith in the union. Um rightly so, and said like, you know, I believe you're going to get equalization. I'll back you. I'll join your CW. And they were doing so on the basis that the first step would happen in September and we'd have a plan by December. Um and and the first step hasn't happened. And so I was wondering Martin and I know Dave you're going to want to come in on this as well. What if you could set out what our proposal is on new entrance terms and conditions and I guess respond to the fact that some of our members I can see it on the comments are using food banks. They're struggling to make ends meet and effectively like there's almost a cruelty from it. I mean there's al there's obviously the false economics of of of the people leaving raw male and the shambles and the cost of continually recruiting people but there there's there's an underlying cruelty here to some of this from raw mail. >> Yeah. No, I agree. If you look and this is where uh obviously some detail needs to become is the hourly rate is a problem. So if you look at the weekly pay of a new entrance and basically a legacy person, there's only £5 difference on the basic pay, but a new entrant doesn't get the 30 per week supplement and their hourly rate is based on 40 hours, not 37 of a legacy. Uh so they therefore are something like in the region of 1.37 per hour less than a legacy. Uh and what we're looking at trying to do is three things here is a supplement. Now bearing in mind most new entrance 23,000 new entrance which are in post now the vast majority of them 13,000 are working between 20 and 30 hours. So they're not 40hour contracts here. Uh but their hourly rate is reduced. Uh and what we're looking at doing is 3 hours off the working week they need to get the same hourly rate as a legacy. We we propose that should happen uh by middle of next year and they should have all the mill leaf. Uh so they would have equalized with the national and out of London waiting rating by then. That's our proposal and the first step would be a range of things. So it's the equivalent it's a 33 p per hour pay rise which uh is obviously paid now ahead of uso deployment where they get further increases in pay. Uh we would review their contract. Their contract is such they can work anytime any place anywhere. so flexible. Uh we should remove that and get there. They're not allowed to do uh work things like essay. They're not allowed to be a workplace coach. Uh they're on the worst pension scheme you can think of. They're on a nest scheme when they come in where the employee pays more than the employer, but it's not transferable. So that money is all wasted. So all of those things in the first step we put forward and from under USO deployment we said as soon as the USO is deployed a new entrant gets 90 minutes off the working week which is equivalent uh of 5% pay rise in terms of the hourly rate uh and they get 50% towards a meal relief and then when they do the 12week review they get equalized at that point and then it's only the supplement which obviously uh they need to get equalized but we've also said if you've been in post more than 3 years uh which obviously the first new entrance from the 1st December gets equalized at that point that's a full equalization and we've also said if there's uh someone from a legacy who leaves an office the next senior uh new entrant gets equalized at that point. So there's a range of options uh we've put forward to the company which that proposal went in last week. We walked that through uh and they are duty bound to respond to us. I think the indications is they believe it's too expensive, too quick. Uh but they need to come back with a count proposal. >> Thanks Martin. Um and thank you by the way for everyone who's joining us. Great numbers on the show tonight on both YouTube and Facebook. Dave, Michael Kitley, who is a new entrant, is saying he's leaving the union as a result of us not achieving it. Um, obviously, you know, you can understand that, but it's so it's so the wrong thing to do in this situation is. So, what would you say to our members who are new entrance, um, you know, about sticking with the union and how we're going to deliver in this moment? >> Michael, if you do that, um, you're doing it for the wrong reasons and you're blaming the wrong people. Uh I mean Royal Mau imposed new entrance terms and conditions and it's a very similar position that virtually every company has done at some point in recent years. I don't think there's any other union that's got an agreement to reverse it, but this union was the ones that got that agreement. Um, so you're completely in the wrong place if you're I understand the frustration that we we want you to get there and we will get you there. Um, but you don't make that job any uh easier by leaving the union. It's the complete reverse. More new entrance have got to join the union. Our members who have been here for a long time support new entrance getting fair uh equalization of terms and conditions. We support it. We got an agreement. We got to get people to bring that agreement uh and the pressure that's required now to get EP Group and Royal Mau to put their proposal on the table and move the issue forward. I mean, it's always about that. So, you know, what we're saying to you tonight is to everybody is support what's right. You know, get out of this sort of debate about whether this is, you know, we're blaming these people. I mean, that's what's happening in society. a sort of world where people just keep pointing fingers of blame without listening to what is the reality of the conversation. The reality always is if you want stronger unions, join the union and take the action that the union will be asking you to support. Um, and we're not in a place at the moment where we're talking about industrial action, but we are talking about up in the ante with the employer and showing the feelings um to a wider group, the public, uh, politicians, the government about what's really going on in Royal Mau. That ain't a bad thing to be doing. That's a good thing to be supporting. So Michael, you know, always happy to chat uh at any point um to anybody who wants to talk about these issues. I do a lot of that on a one-to-one basis when I meet people. I talk to new entrance, I talk to posties and I think most people understand the real where the blame lies and get behind the union. We'll deliver that agreement. >> Martin, you wanted to come back. >> Yeah. Look and saying to Michael, couple of things here. One is this equalization isn't the only thing we're trying to do. We're trying to get new entrance and part-timers full-time jobs under USO uh where they will get a significant pay rise uh along with where we are on equalization. And we're the only body doing this. Myself and Dave sat in a meeting with Raw Mail the other week where they would say the reason people are leaving is seniority and uh the job is too hard, it's nothing to do with pay. So if there is only two groups of people who are fighting here uh for equalization, it's us against the employer. If if there wasn't a union, there'd be no chance of equalization. Uh, and everything we've ever achieved is by being collective. I've been involved in lots of disputes. Sometimes it doesn't work for me in terms of the settlement, but I've always backed the union and the union will always come through with a fair and reasonable deal. >> Thanks, Martin. Thank you. All sorts of people like Ralph Far, Vince Fenel, I can see another senior reps are in the comments um making sure that loads of the questions which we're not going to be able to get to are getting answered. So, we really do appreciate that. Dave Natasha Louise uh Seltera um who who's commented a few times tonight, Natasha has says, "Why don't you come out to my office and see what it's truly like?" And I thought that was a good opportunity. A obviously the union's highly visible. I don't think our this particularly this year leadership to ever been is more visible. Uh but yourself and Martin set out yesterday to all of our reps and need to get into the workplace, our branches, our divisional reps, our executive. So the visibility question and obviously the chance for you to get out and about and meet Natasha and her colleagues in in the Midlands. >> Yeah. >> Um but also brings me right to where we wanted to get to which is what are we going to do about it? You've just said we're not in a place for industrial action. Do we have any other tools? How how do we shift this this fiasco that's going on and has gone on for so long? >> Yeah. So in terms of what we said yesterday to the reps and it was a very good briefing. We laid out um we followed up on a written brief. So all of your local reps u we asked for people who if there isn't a local rep for the office to get somebody to come on yesterday would have got a very extensive briefing from us on all of the issues that we're talking about tonight. Um and as part of that we're asking every office to have a meeting over the next week or so couple of weeks max um to do a number of things. one to make sure that we can then say that that office supports the union in rejecting Royal Mau's proposal on the USO. We need to be 100% behind the fact that we cannot support their proposal. Wherever that takes us, I'll come on to uh issues about industrial action and stuff like that. Um but wherever that takes us, we cannot support that proposal and the clearer message that comes from the workplace united behind their local reps uh standing together to say that we we are not going to support that proposal on the USO, the stronger chance that we have of getting the alternative through um uh that will be much more beneficial to our members because it'll be based on learning from the pilots. That's exactly what you should do. The second thing we want you to do is to be totally together in saying to your managers locally so that we can report that and we're going to come up with mechanisms on how we might do that. There might be a consultative ballot that comes out with some of these questions. um that you know what's really happening at local level is the unfairness and the injustice of and the chaos what's created by having workers on two-tier terms and conditions. Do you know what? I think that decent managers out there will actually support the union on this because it must be impossible to run an office with so many different types of workers. And and what we're saying is fix the foundation and then you can move forward. You can't do it the other way round. And that's why it's important that the the membership get behind that argument of fairness. And why I say about, you know, we don't want to take we're not talking about taking industrial action at this point in time. We we wouldn't rule that out and we're not we're never going to rule that out, you know, and I know that some people might say, well, you know, last dispute, all of that, but we don't rule out those things. But the reason is we've got very sound arguments here that we know Royal Mau are frightened about exposing the truth of what's going on in local offices. So our first way of dealing with this in the talks, we want to get a deal. We don't want to fall out with a company. We want them to do do a deal. Uh it's not a new deal. It's about them honoring the deal that the members voted for and EP doing that. Now you can imagine that the more that we show that an agreement that was backed by the government, an agreement that the country was interested in because they know that Royal Mau is now in the sole ownership of foreign equity investor. Um they ain't going to want to be painted in a bad light. And we're not saying that they're not honoring the deal, but we uh well, we are saying that in terms of the timeline. They haven't put forward the proposals in the timeline. We're being open with you. The reason is is because they're trying to squeeze us on saying we we're not going to agree that until you agree to USO. We're happy to agree them together in that sense, but they've got to be agreed. Um, so you know, we think that we can maximize the pressure. We just need members to participate in what we're going to carry out as an engagement exercise. We want you yourselves as individuals. We'll supply the information to be part of writing to your MPs. I think there is something very powerful about a group of postal workers writing to MPs. Now, we know that email is the the the chosen way, but we're going to probably offer two ways of doing it. And actually, it would be quite powerful if MPs rather than getting just emails actually got a load of handwritten letters from our members. Now, that gives you a voice in telling those MPs who are debating what's going on >> in Royal Mau around quality of service. Why is there failures? It builds our position so much stronger. and all you have to do is back the union's position. Now, if Royal Mau choose to ultimately or EP group, and they're not saying they're going to do this, in fact, they're saying the opposite that it wouldn't work. Um, but if they start to think about imposing this after Christmas, um, we need to get out there now and prepare the ground for that. And that's why we're going to widen the debate. we are going to say this isn't working. Um it isn't working because they overestimated the level of savings and we're going to tell more people and we think there is huge pressure that can be applied there the more we widen this debate and all we're asking is that people support us in telling the truth and let Ro Mau uh try and defend that position. you know, the way they try and defend it at the moment isn't going to happen. And at the same time, we are going to put Offcom on the spot. We can't have a group of people backing the competitors and undermining the postal service anymore in the way that they operate. So, we're going to be asking the government to change regulation. We hope EP Group will sit alongside us and Royal Mau in that debate. Wouldn't that be good? Um, so look, everything's to play for. We've got the agreement. Um there are actions that are going to come out. They're going to be very clear simple actions and I think that will be the start of getting the changes that we need in management uh at local level. You will see it visibly more. It's all there laid out in the agreement. So look, that's the plan. Uh we have gone through that yesterday with our reps. It was well received by our reps but we want to support the reps in doing that. Can I also say in answer to Natasha we always go to different places but it is about the reps at all levels. You know this union has got levels of represent representatives ain't just Martin me and the officers and the executive. We have reps in the region. Some of them are on there tonight helping out in in pushing arguments forward. Um we've got branches. We've got area reps. We are trying to align every single rep in the union behind the objective of addressing your workplace issues. That is what this session is about. That is what we're asking you to support and we'll come out with further coms to explain exactly what your role will be in in supporting us. >> Thank you Dave. Brilliant. And um just one more thing for each of you. Martin uh for you yesterday uh Dave and you have talked about we had a really good session with our local reps. Uh hardly any notice really for that session like four or five days and we had nearly 800 people on um which is brilliant and I don't think there's any other union that could mobilize that amount of uh local reps. I mean the vast majority of unions don't have workplace reps. So it's a it's a testament to the strength and the continued strength of the union where we're able to do that. Um we've got more units than that though. So we have got offices without reps. Andrew Young says um here on need more people to get involved in local CDB reps. You make a big difference. You help sort issues out and local postal workers know best. So an opportunity for you I think to speak to the members watching who may not have a rep in their office and I guess say like it could be you. >> Yeah. Look what we want to do and some of the talks we've been in involved whether it's the incentive scheme whether it's reset giving more power to the local rep to make decisions in a unit with some release is one of our priorities. uh and we recognize probably over the last few years raw mail operate in a very centralized uh basis where agreements get done higher and higher up in the union. Uh we've got to now move that closer to the workplace. Uh and that means people have to step up. when I was a local rep many years ago and Dave as well is you could agree a lot more uh based on your members in your unit whether it's attendance patterns whether it's start times whether it's incentives whether it's working arrangements resourcing all of those things should be the tool which brings more union reps into the workplace and that's part of what our discussions are on both reset incentivization and any USO discussions. >> Thanks Martin. Really appreciate that. Dave, I guess we're right on the hour mark now. Uh been a really good session. Your chance to give any closing message to our members watching the show tonight. >> Yeah. Um one thing I want to say about the USO, you know, we support the need for USO reform because we know that the company has to move forward in this area and start to grow in other areas and rebalance our resources towards that. When Martin mentioned about uh job losses, no one's losing their jobs as part of this. We've already got an agreement that no one will lose their job. It is about the overall resourcing. >> Maybe some of the managers planning it. M >> maybe some of the managers planning it should have should have lost their job already because they've planned it fundamentally based in on theory, not in practice. This is the problem with Royal Mau. They sit in their offices, come up with stuff. It never works out on the ground. But fundamentally, it ain't working because the foundation is broken. It's not a complicated argument. So, don't get too concerned about the numbers at this stage. The question is, can we put the foundations together that could make something work? And we are not supporting their proposal. We want a fairer proposal that gives more achievable workload. That's the position the union has taken. Get behind that position. Um and secondly, you know, our commitment to equalizing new entrance terms and conditions is, you know, it's the number one issue for us. We are saying romhal, let alone our members who deserve the same level of pay, the same meal release, uh the same working hours and all that comes with that, they um ROM will never succeed unless they start valuing postal workers more. And the people who are making that arguments are us and you guys. And we got to come together now and we got to deliver the agreement. Uh, and you got to help us tell the truth to the wider audience and you got to help us put the pressure on Royal Mau and EP Group to do the right deal. >> Just I was going to let you finish then, but you said something that's triggering in my head. Sorry. >> Been a long day, Chris. It has. I've been doing so many meetings. >> I know you are, mate. I'm sorry, but it was a good thing you said, so that's be good. >> Um, you said about it being the union and Martin have said it as well being the union that are trying to the only people trying to reverse new terms and conditions. And it strikes me that um it' be an opportune moment to me to mention that two-tier free tier we've seen and other forms of work in a rife in UK industry. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we have seen that go into all I mean I'm not going to name them but because it's not fair to discuss every trade unions but all industries as far as I'm my understanding we're the only union to have so far agreed it an agreement to reverse that. Now, we are coming with some struggles here. We're fighting, biting, and scratching trying to get it over the line, but we've gained that commitment and with members support, we will deliver it. So, sometimes we beat each other up, but actually we're we're reversing quite a big thing here, aren't we? Not just in raw mail, but wider work at the workplaces. >> Yeah. I mean, I mean, I can't say 100% that we're the only union to reverse it, but it is rife right across all industry. It's part of the UK disease. It's also why when you hear us talking politically about the New Deal for workers, you know, whatever people say about Labor, they'll say that. I'm not here to defend Labor. They've done some stupid things. Um, but the employment rights bill, which brings in a package of measures that will support workers, all workers, um, will create a different environment in the world of work. It will shift the balance of forces back towards working people and away from some of these um companies that have made their money by exploiting workers. This is what this is all about and that's why our commitment to it is so strong. We will get there on this. And you know I want to reassure people we're not hearing Royal M saying we're not going to support it because they've signed up to it. We're not hearing EP group. what the debate is going to be is how quickly uh are the steps and what Martin's made clear is we ain't moving on USO even if we get them agreeing our model until the first step is in and until we know where we're going with the rest of the equalization journey. >> Thank you Dave. So thank you to you both. It has been a long day been lots of stuff going on isn't there for both of you. Uh it's been a long day for all of you as well. >> Yeah many of majority of you out on delivery in your workshops and your sorting office. So, thank you to you too. Most importantly, thank you to everyone who's tuned in tonight. Been fantastic numbers, some great engagement in the comments. And as Dave and Martin have both said, stick with your union and we'll get there. Thanks for joining in everybody. >> Thank you.

[Rve83ndxd]

Key Topics and Union Stances:

EP Group-CWU Agreement: General Secretary Dave Ward stated that the existing agreement forms the foundation of their future relationship, representing a departure from previous management styles [1].
New Entrant Terms and Conditions: EP Group agreed to equalize terms for new entrants, a key union goal, but a mechanism and cost agreement are still being sought [1].
Universal Service Obligation (USO) Reform: The CWU has rejected Royal Mail's proposed USO model, citing evidence from trials that showed it would not work and that projected savings were unrealistic. The union is demanding fairness and benefits for members as part of any reform [1].
Relationship with EP Group: The union has credited EP Group with certain positive moves not seen under previous management, such as a separate pay deal and investment in Collect Plus and locker banks. However, tensions have arisen over the issues of new entrant terms and the USO [1].
Internal Opposition: Dave Ward mentioned that some "hardcore" Royal Mail managers are trying to sabotage the deal reached with EP Group [1].
Future Actions: The union plans to outline what it will do next to ensure the EP agreement is delivered in full, emphasizing that the CWU is the only entity fighting for these changes [1].

The union is seeking a show of unity from its members during the live session to demonstrate strength to Royal Mail [1].
AI responses may include mistakes.

[redlen]

New Entrant Terms and Conditions: EP Group agreed to equalize terms for new entrants, a key union goal, but a mechanism and cost agreement are still being sought

Now without the spin and deceit.

That equalize terms for new entrants will only kick in after that new entrant has been in post for THREE Years under the CWU negotiations.

[tramssirhc]

New Entrant Terms and Conditions: EP Group agreed to equalize terms for new entrants, a key union goal, but a mechanism and cost agreement are still being sought

Now without the spin and deceit.

That equalize terms for new entrants will only kick in after that new entrant has been in post for THREE Years under the CWU negotiations.

Err, that should really be there is no agreement, it's just a load of hot air.

[ted_e_bear]

Thanks for that Rve83ndxd.

Hopefully they're getting somewhere with the sick pay, a few at our office definitely not piss takers have lost money by having odd days off with minor issues such as upset stomachs etc.

Yes also a lot of waffle and I think we can all agree the USO change needs getting to the bottom of properly as opposed to the current attempting to polish a turd approach of trying to apply it to existing duties that are far too long.

[Mesque1899]

Hello everybody. Welcome to CW live. My name is Chris Webb, head of communications. With me tonight is our general secretary, Dave Ward. Evening Dave. >> Hi everybody. >> And our deputy general secretary postal, Martin Walsh. Evening mine. >> Hi everyone. >> Good to have you both with us. Uh good morning better than even these two though is to have all of you as members with us. We've got a really important session tonight. Last night we had around 800 local CW representatives come on to speak to Dave and to speak to Martin. We had an excellent session with them where the officers laid out exactly what is at stake and with both EP group and raw mail with the government with Ofcom and all the issues we have to face and all the issues we're trying to tackle and we had a brilliant debate and we're looking for more of the same tonight. a session where actually, you know, we turn our fire where it needs to be directed, where actually things like the new entrance terms and conditions, which the union's been fighting since day one to reverse, and things like the USO where we're demanding fairness and demanding benefits for you, we get everyone in behind the union and recognize that it is only the union that is fighting to achieve on those things for you. So, if you are on here, we want tonight to be a a session where we show our power, we show our unity, we show our strength to Roma. So, if you are back in the union, then please put I'm with my union in the comments now. And let's have a massive show of strength. Let's not have a thing where we get into each other from the off. Let's show our strength. I'm with my union. And then we'll get into so many comments. Today we're going to have Dave Martin talking about the EP deal, the relationship with them. Martin's going to give you an update on the section five negotiations, the new entrance terms and conditions, our proposal on USO, the industrial and employee relations reset, and crucially Dave and Martin will talk about the defining thing, which is what we're going to do about it. Uh, so that's the session. On top of always, I've got in front of me the screen, I can see all of your live comments and I have to sort of make a little bit of a plea to you in the thousands and thousands. I'm going to have to group them, but we will be taking loads of your questions tonight because this is your session. So, without any further ado, Dave, I want to not see if you can position where we are with EP Group, uh the agreement, the status of agreement, and an opening statement from you. >> Okay. So, uh hi everyone. Um look, we we've always seen um the EPCW agreement as the foundation of our future. Anybody who reads the agreement will understand that the spirit, the content, the clarity of the words within the agreement um couldn't be a further departure from what you're experiencing day in day out and what you have been experiencing in the last three or four years. Um it really did set out a different direction for the company um for us and for most importantly for our members. Um and you know there are times when we will give credit to EP group um and there are things that they've done uh that are definitely different to Royal Mau um and wouldn't have been done under the previous regime. Let me just kind of set that context. Um, one, you know, we would not have got a pay deal um that was separate from the USO had it not been for EP. The Royal Mail Management that Martin uh has to deal with um and the officers have to deal with. Uh they did not want to separate those two issues because they wanted to basically use pay um as a vehicle to drive through USO change. Um they also uh have shown some ambition. Um they've they've shown that in the way with locker banks where they've invested in that. Now I know some people might say well locker banks you know will that harm us that I think the important point to remember is that Roau is competing in a wider market and that's where the market is. The market is where you see it everywhere now. uh and Royal Mau had to be in that place even as a defensive strategy. Uh the other area I think where they've shown ambition recently that you would never have seen with Royal Mau is the investment in Collect Plus the shops which we want to see branded as effectively Royal Mau on the high street. Now, we would have preferred that was done by rejoining Royal Mau with a post office, but I think it is a sign um that they're open to other ideas about how you can grow the business and we've certainly had some good conversations with them. Where we're having difficulties and difficulties with Royal Mau is over the two fundamental issues um that we want to move forward. one is new entrance terms and conditions and EP agreed to equalize new entrance terms and conditions. Now they're saying to us that they want to do that um and that they will commit to the agreement but we can't find at the moment the mechanism um that unlocks that and the cost of that uh and this is why I also have to talk about the wider context of where Royal Mau is operating at the moment um is the fundamental issue. Um so there's that. The other one is USO. Before we go into some of the points they're putting to us because you need to hear those, let me be clear that the union is not going to agree Royal Mau's USO model. Martin and the team um done some good work with our offices that went forward in the pilots. That was never easy. But what we know from that and had we not gone through some of the pain of that for those offices uh we wouldn't have understood whether or not that model actually works and we are very clear that with the evidence based on Royal Mau's own metrics um that is not going to work. So we want to be clear with you we have told Royal Mau we've told EP group we are not going to reach an agreement on that model. That's clearly created some tensions. And what is also very clear is that the level of savings that was projected by the previous Royal Male regime um and Offcom who have talked in the round of between 300 and400 million pounds per year that was going to be saved by the introduction of this new reform of the USO. We know that's not going to materialize and that is causing tension between all parties. There's no getting away from that. There's no hiding that. Um from Royal Mau's point of view, uh they uh are still in the place because there's a hardcore unfortunately of Royal Mal managers who are still in the place. You see it play out in quality of service failures. You see it in some of the actions of the managers in your offices who are still entrenched in that other way of working. Uh and they are some of them it has to be said openly trying to sabotage the deal that we reached with EP Group. But where where it comes to the four is that EP group are saying that we were told when we bought Royal Mau that we're going to be able to save around 300 million pounds a year and we believe that they recognize now that that isn't going to happen and there's an issue there then with Ofcom with Royal Mau and with EP and with ourselves about they will say Well, we bought something. We've had a hike in national insurance and you know, it's not working out financially the same way that we thought. Now, I'm going to say to you that we have been very clear to EP, we do not accept that argument at all. They're a multinational company. Uh they're a company that has investment to put in. They didn't just make an agreement with a CW. They made an agreement with the country and with the government and it's important that we focus on some elements of that later on today to understand what we now need to do to deliver the EP agreement in full. We are not sitting here saying that they've walked away from negotiations cuz they haven't and we've put forward sensible alternatives that Martin will go through on both the USO because we know we need to reform the USO but it has to work. Um and we also have put sensible alternatives forward on how we equalize and the journey to equalizing new entrance terms and conditions. We are told by them that they will come forward with a proposal on that, but as it stands today, Martin's been in other negotiations and he'll report on that a little bit later. Um we haven't seen that proposal. So we're in that place. So, look, what we're saying to you is is we are 100% committed to that agreement. Um, we will deliver on that agreement, but we need your help. Uh, and we're going to explain later on today, um, after we do some of the initial questions what we basically set out with our reps last night, the plan that we want to put pressure on Royal Mount uh, and EP to deliver on the commitments that they made. Now, it's also important that we set out this wider context of where Offcom are coming from. We understand that Ofcom um had to find Royal Mau. That's Royal Mau's fault. They're running a broken resourcing model. You all know it. Um Martin will give you information tonight on the situation with how many people are leaving Royal Mau and how long they stay and you're seeing that play out in your offices. But they are trying to defend the indefensible as though somehow quality of service will all be put right if um USO reform comes in. And what we're saying is no, the the foundation has to be fixed first. And that's what the agreement says uh and that's what we're going to um make sure that they deliver. So, you know, when it comes to uh some of the arguments Royal Mau putting forward at the moment, we're very confident that we can open up this debate with Offcom and with the government um to explain our position and to set out the truth of what's really been happening. And what we want you to do is help us in setting that out. You know what it's like with trying to deliver the workload that's there at the moment. And it's we're not clearing we're not achieving quality of targets. And whilst as I said we understand that offcom find Royal Mail that's not a sustainable position and actually we think it's time to turn the heat up on Ofcom as well. We've always been consistent and been honest that it was never going to achieve the level of savings and that they had to fix the resourcing model. So when we set out our plan later and we'd love to work with Royal Mau on this and one good thing is some of the conversations we've had with EP if we can overcome these two hurdles they are actually far more progressive on working with us to change the way that regulation impacts on Royal Mau than we've ever seen from any previous Royal Mau leadership. um they understand the issues. So, we are talking to government. Um we've got meetings lined up. We've already had conversations with government, but we're going to meet the Secretary of State in a couple of weeks time. And we're going to set out our concerns. We're also going to talk to all MPs and this is where you come in and we'll explain that a little bit later because we want to turn um the heat up. uh we want to make sure that your voice and what is really happening in the workplace is understood more by the public, the media uh and also politicians. So I think I've said enough for the time being. Let Martin uh come in with a little bit more on some of the detail and then we'll pick up from there. >> Thanks Dave. Excellent. And thank you to everyone also who put their comments up saying with the union. I saw hundreds of them. That was absolutely fantastic. Exactly what we want and loads and loads of questions and and comments. We're going to get to them shortly. Martin, just before we get into some of that, um, you've been in negotiations with Royal Mail this week, yesterday, today. Hot off the press update for members where we are on some of these key issues from section 5. >> Yeah, look, try and uh, hi everyone. First off, in terms of new entrance, I think it's important to recognize uh, we are not going to agree uso without equalization and a first step. That's our position. and we've stated that timeless to rale and we're going to make sure uh we deliver equalization. We are the only group who are calling for equalization. Uh rule mill if they had their way they deployed new entrance because they were 20% less than legacy and they wanted to continue with that. We're determined to equalize but equally the way you can help us in this is they r all over our membership numbers. They know on new entrance there's only 54% members uh but that varies in different locations from 70% to 40%. joining the union fighting to support and get equalization is the right thing to do. So we've put a proposal on equalization uh which we believe is a fair proposal. Raw M are considering it. EP are considering it. I think the initial feedback is they think is too costly. It introduces equalization too quickly. Uh but we're determined to make sure we got a first step and an equalization time scale. Equalization means a delivery supplement. It means the same hours. It means paid meal reliefs and it means they're entitled to perform scheduled attendance. They're entitled to the same hourly rate both for national outer and inner London. uh and that's our plan and we're uh trying to do that as quick as possible. The facts are is since 1st of December 2022 when new entrance came in 27,000 new entrance have left the business. It's a revolving door and 50% of all new entrance leave within the first year. This is why there's a resourcing crisis uh and clearly why we're putting forward a faster pace in terms of equalization. The other issue we've put on the table here is that no uh you know new entrant who's been here more than 3 years. So the first time anyone could be here 3 years was from the 1st of December. But it's at that point they should be equalized. uh and we've also proposed that when a legacy person leaves uh the industry they're replaced and equalized by new entrant along with a number of other steps uh which help new entrance. So we've put the proposal law considering it. In terms of the other parts of section five, we've had the last two days in talks where there's been some you know positive talks. We've now concluded a conduct code, a discipline new discipline code. Uh you would remember during the 2015 conduct code during the dispute it was abused. Uh we've now got a new procedure subject to the postal executive agreeing that that will be a branch ballot and we've got a new attendance procedure which has been agreed today. There's also talks on a safeguard in the mail which was uh an annex to the conduct code which caused a lot of dismissals uh and we've addressed that in the right way. Uh, and we've also made some progress on reducing agency. And this is important because you reduce agency, you introduce more part-time to full-time, and you introduce more jobs in the industry. At the moment, there's 8,000 new uh full-time equivalent agency staff in Lor Mill and uh 15,000 agency slots are in place for more than 13 weeks. The agreement allows us to replace those 13 weeks with a part-time to full-time permanent, a transfery, or basically an agency conversion. uh and we've got to start uh getting rid of agency and the reduction in costs from agency will go to increase overtime and essay rates. So there's a win-win situation around tackling agency. Uh we've also talked around the reset of industrial and employee relations uh and what how does that happen? There's letters being exchanged with the CEO. There's other aspects of that, but it's also identifying where units are broken in terms of employee industrial relations. How do we get in there and change them? There's still managers under our business to run bullying out there. We've got to change that. We've got to do that quickly. Uh in terms of the incentive scheme, we've had uh two sessions over the last 48 hours in terms of incentive and there's a plan there which we're going to pilot some delivery offices in the new year and some mail centers. Uh and then we talked around improving sick pay. Uh if you look at sick pay, every industry since pandemic has increased sick pay uh sorry increased sick leave from me mental health, long covid uh and other sort of ailments. But what's changed in rural mail is short-term sick used to be bigger than long-term sick. Now it's reversed where 70% of a unit would be long-term sick and 30% which would be short-term sick. If you looked at 5.5 percentage which would remove SSP, there's tw uh there's 49% of delivery offices who would come off SSP from uh day one. And there's 23 out of 37 mail centers who would do so likewise. So we're in talks with a company to try uh and move that issue on from January next year and those talks are continuing. So on section five we've had a lot of talks but the real issue is new entrance. We've made progress elsewhere, but obviously the USO, which I'll cover on in a m moment, Chris, uh is obviously a massive factor because if you think about this, we're asking for equalization and we're proposing to reduce what Rome would get out of USO. Uh and we're asking that to be faced, which is the other element in terms of his talks. >> Thanks, man. We we will cover those issues in in some depth. Dave, a couple of questions for you. Now, first one, uh I don't never thought we'd be having a debate about stamps on our uh live show, but I've noticed over the last 24 hours loads of our members saying that they've got their Christmas stamps. Uh one, they were remarkably surprised about how early they came this year. Uh but two, they've been downgraded from first class to second class. I mean, I can't get my head around it. I mean, this is the company that actually owns the post. So, I mean, there's there's not a significant cost here, is there? Uh, but just from a visual perspective and the signal that it sends to our members, and they clearly think the same thing. I mean, it's just not right, is it? >> No. And I mean, it's a total joke and it devalues um in our members eyes what the company thinks of them. And I don't know who's come up with the idea. Um and and because even the cost of it, there isn't a cost of it. They work for the post, they produce the stamps, they they give them to their own workers. I mean, it is just madness. Um what it illustrates more though is what we're trying to talk about about why, you know, some of these things you're not seeing the change at local level. Um is because we have to be honest. There's a hardcore of managers who are now in a position where they do not like the agreement because it reverses pretty much every part of the strategy that Royal Mau move forward the previous regime. Uh and they are trying to undermine it and they are so entrenched in their views on how you deal with working people, our members. Um but EP have got to step up, you I mean, we're past the stage where we we're not here to give excuses as to that. We're just telling you the truth about why these people don't like the agreement. And EP have got to start sorting some of these people out. And the current Royal M management, you know, the senior people, we think some of them are saying to us they want to do the right thing. They want to work with us. They want to deliver all aspects of the agreement. They're not saying that they're not going to deliver it, including new entrance, but they ain't stepping forward quick enough um and tackling these issues. And when you you look at this, you know, what a terrible message it sends to your own workforce. I mean, what they should be doing is is putting 150 quid on the Christmas bonus or or something like that, you know, not not giving out secondass stamps. I'm not saying that they're not useful for people and no one's going to, you know, is saying that. Are they? Our members are saying it isn't a good look. Um, it did surprise us when we saw some of the names that were on the letter. I thought that was a bit strange as well. There was about 10 people >> um who probably a lot of our members don't even know that who they are. We know them and we definitely know that at least two or three of them are the same people that led the other strategy. So, the question's got to be asked. we were told they'd moved on um or they're not involved anymore, but clearly some of them are. So, you know, I mean that that issue, we understand why it plays out. It's about changing uh the culture. It's about value. Ro will not succeed. Our members know this. Until they feel valued. Uh and until we look after people, we're never going to be able to be successful in this company. >> Paul Wright uh says maybe next year we'll bring back the seeds. So Paul's obviously a long time member I remember a comb as well for us bold men not too useful to come back to you again Dave if I can on the government so um you said in your opening um positioning piece there that you know raw male al group sorry also made a separate agreement with the government of this country to protect the postal service maintain the USO um the government were influential in the talks yourself Martin other people had during that period we then since then seen a bit of a reshuffle if you like from people like Johnny Reynolds who was a business secretary's now moved out now got Peter Kyle and I guess the members are wondering when we're talking about applying political pressure have we got any you know that the feedback I can see is they're not happy with the direction of the Labour party they don't have too much faith in us karma running on a a horse to save us save the post industry you know >> it's not about that is it we're not asking anybody to come and save us we're asking people to deliver on what they agree and uh the government's agreement was an important part of EP Group becoming the sole owner. Um I'm not going to sit here and Martin won't either and say that we've sat in front of EP Group and they're telling us that they're not going to deliver the deal. They're not saying that. Um and as we pointed out, we have to be fair. They have done some things including by the way and I'm not going to go into the detail of that, but you will know that we've had an ongoing issue um following the amount of people that were dismissed. We got them back. We got them some money. We've gone in further because of other evidence that we found. Um and EP Group have told Royal Mau to settle with further compensation. Now these sort of things have to play out a bit a little bit more privately. Let's see where that goes. But EP are different. I think we're satisfied that what we can't accept is the excuse that somehow EP um you know didn't realize that they wasn't going to get£300 million savings from the USO. Now what Royal Mau have done is promised them that they were going to get that and where we are with the government is we want the government to look into that. We want the government to look into how did Royal Mail come up with the numbers that they were ever going to save£300 million because you all know our members know that they took no account whatsoever of the chaos that they created. They took no account that the resourcing model is broken, that they can't keep staff, and yet they came up with these figures. Now, we want that debate. We want scrutiny. Whether that's via a select committee, whether that's bigger than that is what we're looking for. People need to be held accountable to how did they come up with those figures. With Offcom, it's the same debate. How did Ofcom come up with those figures? Uh, and we've made our submissions and we've consistently said that was never deliverable. So, what EP can't tell us is that we were nothing less than honest in telling them what they were buying to scale the problems. I think EP recognize that, but of course they're looking at it from a financial point of view at the moment and having agreed to pay deal and let's be honest, Royal Mau's management are telling them you shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have agreed the pay deal separate from the USO, but that was the right thing to do. Uh we want to find a resolution, but we do believe that the government needs to review hopefully with EP sitting in the room with us the progress of the agreement. It's not just our agreement, it's their agreement. So we are confident that we can apply the pressure that um makes the government look at this and make sure that it's implemented fairly. We're not asking them to save us. We can do that ourselves. But it's about now people being held to account for what they've agreed. Um I think EP and Royal Mail won't like some of what we're saying. We know that. Um because we're also saying that we are going to uh write to all MPs and we're going to set out exactly why quality of service is failing. We've had enough of listening to these fines and hearing what royal males say which at times is just outrageous just total and utter lies in terms of the real issues. They try and cover it up and it's not a sustainable position. You know, we're at the point again where our members will pay the price for the failures of Royal Mail Management um and their resourcing models and all the things the imposed revisions. We we're going to pay the price because Royal M won't be able to afford those fines. So, we've got to make sure that the government understand the current model of regulation has to change. We want the members to support us in this. We're going to do it via briefings, but we're also going to do it via uh a serious engagement exercise with the members, with the reps. We told the reps this yesterday where we essentially want you to back us one in telling Royal Mau that you're not going to support their their model um and we'll put an alternative forward on the USO. two that you know the reasons why that the quality of service is failing is because you can't keep staff and they've got to do something uh about new entrance pay terms and conditions because that's fair, that's right, that's what we agree. But we want you to back us in this wider campaign. We want you to help us um and we're going to supply you with things that can start to engage the public more, engage um politicians more and your own MPs on on how we're going to build and tell the truth. Uh postal workers are trusted. Uh I think the the public will believe postal workers far more than what they're going to believe Royal Mau. So it's time to widen this discussion and we're going to be coming out and telling you what that looks like. >> Just 30 seconds. I want to move on to the USO and new entrance from Martin. You said then EP group are different. Now if a postal worker may say since the ownership I've got a reasonable pay deal, but nothing earth shattering. They haven't followed through their promise on equalization on the first step. Nothing's changed in my workplace. They're not pulling up raw male who are lying openly about the success or otherwise of the USO pilots. And I've ch I've seen absolutely nothing at my level and an off delivery office or sorting office that that justifies us saying EP are different. So how would we respond to that? >> Well, I I think it's true, isn't it? In terms of where the members look at these situations, they are seeing nothing different and we understand that and that's why you know we are saying to EP you haven't done enough to change the culture in Royal Mount. You signed a deal that was going to sort out this culture. I mean the words couldn't be any clearer and they do need to change the whole managerial ethos and whilst I think there are managers out there who are decent managers you know I'm not saying every manager there would be people on this call know that their managers are decent managers there's too many who are deliberately undermining that agreement well EP need to step up their activities the new CEO was confirmed yesterday uh he needs to step up those activities. What Martin was talking about earlier on is that we are in discussion about letters that the CEOs uh and Daniel Katinsky will be writing to our members to tell them that they they are totally committed to that agreement. You know, we are having those conversations, but what's holding those conversations up and what Martin calls the reset of employing industrial relations is the reality that we can't agree on where we are with the USO. That that's created tensions. You know, us turning around and saying we're not supporting that that plan. Uh we we can't put a plan in that doesn't work. It just make the situation worse. We ain't moving from that position. uh and that is as you can imagine creating tension. What our members need to do is to support the union's plan. The local reps will be talking to you um and show your managers that how frustrated you are that nothing's changing. Don't blame the union. You know, it's there to be had. uh and I I think if you tell your managers that and the reps tell them that and carry out the plan that we've put forward then you will see things start to change. >> Thank you Dave. Uh for members who are in the comments talking about uh what about fleet what about passer force obviously this session is raw male group so everything that Martin and David are talking about covers you too and we will be doing separate section sessions with the officers in the coming weeks. Martin, um, I want to talk to you for a moment specifically around the USO. I don't think we need to go in. I think people can say that the pilots have failed. I mean, you know, Raw Mal's version is very different, but the truth obviously is the truth, isn't it, with the male failing and how many hours they're putting in, etc. People are keen to know, however, what the union has tabled and what you've TD in negotiations. So, could you talk people through the CW vision of uh, USO and what what members would get from that? >> Yeah. So look, it's important to recognize that we agreed 35 pilots and the evidence of those pilots, they're not working. Uh even though Raw Mel's own data, which they give us each week, only two units out of 35 are hitting all the equality targets. Uh and they've actually put 228 more jobs than they started with. So the whole point of USO from Offcom and Roy Mel was to save money. the pilots have actually spent money. Uh so we've been in talks with Royal Mail and I think they're committed to moving away from MDM. Uh and we've been talking about a heavy and light model. So the heavy and light model would be if you're a shared van, you got two walks there. One of those walks would be all the mail on one day and the other would just be first class tracked and parcels. first class is now uh about 12% of all over all traffic. Uh so you would then switch him over Monday to Friday. So every delivery would get all male every f every sort of uh 10 over 10 days, 5 days. Uh and that's the same model which Offcom has agreed. Uh and what we were talking around is every eight walks we would have seven people doing it. So one walk would be uh basically absorbed between the other seven duties. Romel see the seventh duty being reviewed after 12 weeks. We see that as yes you can review that and see whether you can go further. Uh but we see a seventh duty actually doing the work. Uh whereas ror would rather have a pressure person who does some work but isn't on an actual duty. That's the difference between us in terms of the current talks and the reason why that's important and you you look at new entrance you look at uh where we on pay and you look at Rail's profit I think EP and R saying we made a12 million pound profit we've paid pay which is 900 million over 3 years you're now down dialing any chance of a 300 million uh and the first phase would be 150 million on USO and you want equalization at a quicker route than we can afford and that's where the tensions are uh within the talks what does uh the the USO model given on a heavy and light one is it doesn't discriminate against non-drivers it allows individuals to stay on duties uh it gives an earlier Saturday uh 6 hour 55 Saturday it gives improved attendance patterns it gives more full-time jobs. Uh but it also allows for review of start times because the principle is you got work in there before wave 1 arrives. Uh and where raw mills modeled this in Cumbald, it would move start times on a Monday 30 minutes earlier and 15 minutes Tuesday to Saturday. Uh again that formula will be different to each unit. Uh and obviously that's something we are progressing in the talks. But where we've stuck on Chris is uh obviously rare have agreed it would go to uh 8 into seven but they would like to have the seventh duty as a floater rather than a fixed duty and we're not agreeing that at this moment in time. >> Thanks Martin Dave you want to come on the back? Just what what Martin was saying there. I think the biggest difference between us is that we believe that it can only be working based on proper resourcing being in place. One first two a model that is based on what's achievable in work not a financial target. And we are not signing up to any financial target. I mean these numbers no one can say based on the chaos that Royal Mau have created what whether there's going to be any savings and the point that Martin has said is that the evidence that's been put forward um from the pilots is that they don't save a penny it actually costs them more now some people might say and this is one of Royal Mal's arguments incidentally well why why don't you agree it then on that basis well they need to put the work back to where it should be, the staffing back to where it should be under any system. And what's crucial to that is that they keep staff and and where the company are trying to sort of move this forward by believing that somehow any model, whether it's their model, our model will work if you haven't got a regular staffing base is just a fantasy. and and the three things which are not taken into account is the imposed revisions which obviously when they've looked at pilots places like Stockton South End have had sort of upwards of 30 odd duties put in and then Stockton now 54 duties uh restored. Uh the second element is resourcing crisis which obviously new entrance leaving and the third is the increase in doorstep transactions from tracked uh which is causing a real problem out there. So obviously what we're looking at is a model uh which means every unit is resourced. So what we have agreed is you wouldn't go live until you've got everyone in place before you deploy. Uh and therefore have you got an indoor plan? It's a yes or go or no go uh process. So there are elements in there to make sure it's full resource. But obviously what this would do the four into three model which is ODM was going to lose 11,000 jobs. This proposal at best is six and a half thousand. Uh so there's a massive reduction in terms of our proposal to where Rale wanted to get to. >> Thanks Martin. I want to move to the subject come back to you as well. I know Dave's going to want to speak on this as well new entrance terms and conditions. Um you I think you said in the brief you two earlier in the week that 27,000 new entrance have left raw male since your introduction of the grade. I mean it's a fast. You can see on our pages, you can see in workplaces, uh they just can't get the staff, you know, uh it's a ridiculous scenario. On top of that though, we have a lot of members who have put their faith in the union. Um rightly so, and said like, you know, I believe you're going to get equalization. I'll back you. I'll join your CW. And they were doing so on the basis that the first step would happen in September and we'd have a plan by December. Um and and the first step hasn't happened. And so I was wondering Martin and I know Dave you're going to want to come in on this as well. What if you could set out what our proposal is on new entrance terms and conditions and I guess respond to the fact that some of our members I can see it on the comments are using food banks. They're struggling to make ends meet and effectively like there's almost a cruelty from it. I mean there's al there's obviously the false economics of of of the people leaving raw male and the shambles and the cost of continually recruiting people but there there's there's an underlying cruelty here to some of this from raw mail. >> Yeah. No, I agree. If you look and this is where uh obviously some detail needs to become is the hourly rate is a problem. So if you look at the weekly pay of a new entrance and basically a legacy person, there's only £5 difference on the basic pay, but a new entrant doesn't get the 30 per week supplement and their hourly rate is based on 40 hours, not 37 of a legacy. Uh so they therefore are something like in the region of 1.37 per hour less than a legacy. Uh and what we're looking at trying to do is three things here is a supplement. Now bearing in mind most new entrance 23,000 new entrance which are in post now the vast majority of them 13,000 are working between 20 and 30 hours. So they're not 40hour contracts here. Uh but their hourly rate is reduced. Uh and what we're looking at doing is 3 hours off the working week they need to get the same hourly rate as a legacy. We we propose that should happen uh by middle of next year and they should have all the mill leaf. Uh so they would have equalized with the national and out of London waiting rating by then. That's our proposal and the first step would be a range of things. So it's the equivalent it's a 33 p per hour pay rise which uh is obviously paid now ahead of uso deployment where they get further increases in pay. Uh we would review their contract. Their contract is such they can work anytime any place anywhere. so flexible. Uh we should remove that and get there. They're not allowed to do uh work things like essay. They're not allowed to be a workplace coach. Uh they're on the worst pension scheme you can think of. They're on a nest scheme when they come in where the employee pays more than the employer, but it's not transferable. So that money is all wasted. So all of those things in the first step we put forward and from under USO deployment we said as soon as the USO is deployed a new entrant gets 90 minutes off the working week which is equivalent uh of 5% pay rise in terms of the hourly rate uh and they get 50% towards a meal relief and then when they do the 12week review they get equalized at that point and then it's only the supplement which obviously uh they need to get equalized but we've also said if you've been in post more than 3 years uh which obviously the first new entrance from the 1st December gets equalized at that point that's a full equalization and we've also said if there's uh someone from a legacy who leaves an office the next senior uh new entrant gets equalized at that point. So there's a range of options uh we've put forward to the company which that proposal went in last week. We walked that through uh and they are duty bound to respond to us. I think the indications is they believe it's too expensive, too quick. Uh but they need to come back with a count proposal. >> Thanks Martin. Um and thank you by the way for everyone who's joining us. Great numbers on the show tonight on both YouTube and Facebook. Dave, Michael Kitley, who is a new entrant, is saying he's leaving the union as a result of us not achieving it. Um, obviously, you know, you can understand that, but it's so it's so the wrong thing to do in this situation is. So, what would you say to our members who are new entrance, um, you know, about sticking with the union and how we're going to deliver in this moment? >> Michael, if you do that, um, you're doing it for the wrong reasons and you're blaming the wrong people. Uh I mean Royal Mau imposed new entrance terms and conditions and it's a very similar position that virtually every company has done at some point in recent years. I don't think there's any other union that's got an agreement to reverse it, but this union was the ones that got that agreement. Um, so you're completely in the wrong place if you're I understand the frustration that we we want you to get there and we will get you there. Um, but you don't make that job any uh easier by leaving the union. It's the complete reverse. More new entrance have got to join the union. Our members who have been here for a long time support new entrance getting fair uh equalization of terms and conditions. We support it. We got an agreement. We got to get people to bring that agreement uh and the pressure that's required now to get EP Group and Royal Mau to put their proposal on the table and move the issue forward. I mean, it's always about that. So, you know, what we're saying to you tonight is to everybody is support what's right. You know, get out of this sort of debate about whether this is, you know, we're blaming these people. I mean, that's what's happening in society. a sort of world where people just keep pointing fingers of blame without listening to what is the reality of the conversation. The reality always is if you want stronger unions, join the union and take the action that the union will be asking you to support. Um, and we're not in a place at the moment where we're talking about industrial action, but we are talking about up in the ante with the employer and showing the feelings um to a wider group, the public, uh, politicians, the government about what's really going on in Royal Mau. That ain't a bad thing to be doing. That's a good thing to be supporting. So Michael, you know, always happy to chat uh at any point um to anybody who wants to talk about these issues. I do a lot of that on a one-to-one basis when I meet people. I talk to new entrance, I talk to posties and I think most people understand the real where the blame lies and get behind the union. We'll deliver that agreement. >> Martin, you wanted to come back. >> Yeah. Look and saying to Michael, couple of things here. One is this equalization isn't the only thing we're trying to do. We're trying to get new entrance and part-timers full-time jobs under USO uh where they will get a significant pay rise uh along with where we are on equalization. And we're the only body doing this. Myself and Dave sat in a meeting with Raw Mail the other week where they would say the reason people are leaving is seniority and uh the job is too hard, it's nothing to do with pay. So if there is only two groups of people who are fighting here uh for equalization, it's us against the employer. If if there wasn't a union, there'd be no chance of equalization. Uh, and everything we've ever achieved is by being collective. I've been involved in lots of disputes. Sometimes it doesn't work for me in terms of the settlement, but I've always backed the union and the union will always come through with a fair and reasonable deal. >> Thanks, Martin. Thank you. All sorts of people like Ralph Far, Vince Fenel, I can see another senior reps are in the comments um making sure that loads of the questions which we're not going to be able to get to are getting answered. So, we really do appreciate that. Dave Natasha Louise uh Seltera um who who's commented a few times tonight, Natasha has says, "Why don't you come out to my office and see what it's truly like?" And I thought that was a good opportunity. A obviously the union's highly visible. I don't think our this particularly this year leadership to ever been is more visible. Uh but yourself and Martin set out yesterday to all of our reps and need to get into the workplace, our branches, our divisional reps, our executive. So the visibility question and obviously the chance for you to get out and about and meet Natasha and her colleagues in in the Midlands. >> Yeah. >> Um but also brings me right to where we wanted to get to which is what are we going to do about it? You've just said we're not in a place for industrial action. Do we have any other tools? How how do we shift this this fiasco that's going on and has gone on for so long? >> Yeah. So in terms of what we said yesterday to the reps and it was a very good briefing. We laid out um we followed up on a written brief. So all of your local reps u we asked for people who if there isn't a local rep for the office to get somebody to come on yesterday would have got a very extensive briefing from us on all of the issues that we're talking about tonight. Um and as part of that we're asking every office to have a meeting over the next week or so couple of weeks max um to do a number of things. one to make sure that we can then say that that office supports the union in rejecting Royal Mau's proposal on the USO. We need to be 100% behind the fact that we cannot support their proposal. Wherever that takes us, I'll come on to uh issues about industrial action and stuff like that. Um but wherever that takes us, we cannot support that proposal and the clearer message that comes from the workplace united behind their local reps uh standing together to say that we we are not going to support that proposal on the USO, the stronger chance that we have of getting the alternative through um uh that will be much more beneficial to our members because it'll be based on learning from the pilots. That's exactly what you should do. The second thing we want you to do is to be totally together in saying to your managers locally so that we can report that and we're going to come up with mechanisms on how we might do that. There might be a consultative ballot that comes out with some of these questions. um that you know what's really happening at local level is the unfairness and the injustice of and the chaos what's created by having workers on two-tier terms and conditions. Do you know what? I think that decent managers out there will actually support the union on this because it must be impossible to run an office with so many different types of workers. And and what we're saying is fix the foundation and then you can move forward. You can't do it the other way round. And that's why it's important that the the membership get behind that argument of fairness. And why I say about, you know, we don't want to take we're not talking about taking industrial action at this point in time. We we wouldn't rule that out and we're not we're never going to rule that out, you know, and I know that some people might say, well, you know, last dispute, all of that, but we don't rule out those things. But the reason is we've got very sound arguments here that we know Royal Mau are frightened about exposing the truth of what's going on in local offices. So our first way of dealing with this in the talks, we want to get a deal. We don't want to fall out with a company. We want them to do do a deal. Uh it's not a new deal. It's about them honoring the deal that the members voted for and EP doing that. Now you can imagine that the more that we show that an agreement that was backed by the government, an agreement that the country was interested in because they know that Royal Mau is now in the sole ownership of foreign equity investor. Um they ain't going to want to be painted in a bad light. And we're not saying that they're not honoring the deal, but we uh well, we are saying that in terms of the timeline. They haven't put forward the proposals in the timeline. We're being open with you. The reason is is because they're trying to squeeze us on saying we we're not going to agree that until you agree to USO. We're happy to agree them together in that sense, but they've got to be agreed. Um, so you know, we think that we can maximize the pressure. We just need members to participate in what we're going to carry out as an engagement exercise. We want you yourselves as individuals. We'll supply the information to be part of writing to your MPs. I think there is something very powerful about a group of postal workers writing to MPs. Now, we know that email is the the the chosen way, but we're going to probably offer two ways of doing it. And actually, it would be quite powerful if MPs rather than getting just emails actually got a load of handwritten letters from our members. Now, that gives you a voice in telling those MPs who are debating what's going on >> in Royal Mau around quality of service. Why is there failures? It builds our position so much stronger. and all you have to do is back the union's position. Now, if Royal Mau choose to ultimately or EP group, and they're not saying they're going to do this, in fact, they're saying the opposite that it wouldn't work. Um, but if they start to think about imposing this after Christmas, um, we need to get out there now and prepare the ground for that. And that's why we're going to widen the debate. we are going to say this isn't working. Um it isn't working because they overestimated the level of savings and we're going to tell more people and we think there is huge pressure that can be applied there the more we widen this debate and all we're asking is that people support us in telling the truth and let Ro Mau uh try and defend that position. you know, the way they try and defend it at the moment isn't going to happen. And at the same time, we are going to put Offcom on the spot. We can't have a group of people backing the competitors and undermining the postal service anymore in the way that they operate. So, we're going to be asking the government to change regulation. We hope EP Group will sit alongside us and Royal Mau in that debate. Wouldn't that be good? Um, so look, everything's to play for. We've got the agreement. Um there are actions that are going to come out. They're going to be very clear simple actions and I think that will be the start of getting the changes that we need in management uh at local level. You will see it visibly more. It's all there laid out in the agreement. So look, that's the plan. Uh we have gone through that yesterday with our reps. It was well received by our reps but we want to support the reps in doing that. Can I also say in answer to Natasha we always go to different places but it is about the reps at all levels. You know this union has got levels of represent representatives ain't just Martin me and the officers and the executive. We have reps in the region. Some of them are on there tonight helping out in in pushing arguments forward. Um we've got branches. We've got area reps. We are trying to align every single rep in the union behind the objective of addressing your workplace issues. That is what this session is about. That is what we're asking you to support and we'll come out with further coms to explain exactly what your role will be in in supporting us. >> Thank you Dave. Brilliant. And um just one more thing for each of you. Martin uh for you yesterday uh Dave and you have talked about we had a really good session with our local reps. Uh hardly any notice really for that session like four or five days and we had nearly 800 people on um which is brilliant and I don't think there's any other union that could mobilize that amount of uh local reps. I mean the vast majority of unions don't have workplace reps. So it's a it's a testament to the strength and the continued strength of the union where we're able to do that. Um we've got more units than that though. So we have got offices without reps. Andrew Young says um here on need more people to get involved in local CDB reps. You make a big difference. You help sort issues out and local postal workers know best. So an opportunity for you I think to speak to the members watching who may not have a rep in their office and I guess say like it could be you. >> Yeah. Look what we want to do and some of the talks we've been in involved whether it's the incentive scheme whether it's reset giving more power to the local rep to make decisions in a unit with some release is one of our priorities. uh and we recognize probably over the last few years raw mail operate in a very centralized uh basis where agreements get done higher and higher up in the union. Uh we've got to now move that closer to the workplace. Uh and that means people have to step up. when I was a local rep many years ago and Dave as well is you could agree a lot more uh based on your members in your unit whether it's attendance patterns whether it's start times whether it's incentives whether it's working arrangements resourcing all of those things should be the tool which brings more union reps into the workplace and that's part of what our discussions are on both reset incentivization and any USO discussions. >> Thanks Martin. Really appreciate that. Dave, I guess we're right on the hour mark now. Uh been a really good session. Your chance to give any closing message to our members watching the show tonight. >> Yeah. Um one thing I want to say about the USO, you know, we support the need for USO reform because we know that the company has to move forward in this area and start to grow in other areas and rebalance our resources towards that. When Martin mentioned about uh job losses, no one's losing their jobs as part of this. We've already got an agreement that no one will lose their job. It is about the overall resourcing. >> Maybe some of the managers planning it. M >> maybe some of the managers planning it should have should have lost their job already because they've planned it fundamentally based in on theory, not in practice. This is the problem with Royal Mau. They sit in their offices, come up with stuff. It never works out on the ground. But fundamentally, it ain't working because the foundation is broken. It's not a complicated argument. So, don't get too concerned about the numbers at this stage. The question is, can we put the foundations together that could make something work? And we are not supporting their proposal. We want a fairer proposal that gives more achievable workload. That's the position the union has taken. Get behind that position. Um and secondly, you know, our commitment to equalizing new entrance terms and conditions is, you know, it's the number one issue for us. We are saying romhal, let alone our members who deserve the same level of pay, the same meal release, uh the same working hours and all that comes with that, they um ROM will never succeed unless they start valuing postal workers more. And the people who are making that arguments are us and you guys. And we got to come together now and we got to deliver the agreement. Uh, and you got to help us tell the truth to the wider audience and you got to help us put the pressure on Royal Mau and EP Group to do the right deal. >> Just I was going to let you finish then, but you said something that's triggering in my head. Sorry. >> Been a long day, Chris. It has. I've been doing so many meetings. >> I know you are, mate. I'm sorry, but it was a good thing you said, so that's be good. >> Um, you said about it being the union and Martin have said it as well being the union that are trying to the only people trying to reverse new terms and conditions. And it strikes me that um it' be an opportune moment to me to mention that two-tier free tier we've seen and other forms of work in a rife in UK industry. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we have seen that go into all I mean I'm not going to name them but because it's not fair to discuss every trade unions but all industries as far as I'm my understanding we're the only union to have so far agreed it an agreement to reverse that. Now, we are coming with some struggles here. We're fighting, biting, and scratching trying to get it over the line, but we've gained that commitment and with members support, we will deliver it. So, sometimes we beat each other up, but actually we're we're reversing quite a big thing here, aren't we? Not just in raw mail, but wider work at the workplaces. >> Yeah. I mean, I mean, I can't say 100% that we're the only union to reverse it, but it is rife right across all industry. It's part of the UK disease. It's also why when you hear us talking politically about the New Deal for workers, you know, whatever people say about Labor, they'll say that. I'm not here to defend Labor. They've done some stupid things. Um, but the employment rights bill, which brings in a package of measures that will support workers, all workers, um, will create a different environment in the world of work. It will shift the balance of forces back towards working people and away from some of these um companies that have made their money by exploiting workers. This is what this is all about and that's why our commitment to it is so strong. We will get there on this. And you know I want to reassure people we're not hearing Royal M saying we're not going to support it because they've signed up to it. We're not hearing EP group. what the debate is going to be is how quickly uh are the steps and what Martin's made clear is we ain't moving on USO even if we get them agreeing our model until the first step is in and until we know where we're going with the rest of the equalization journey. >> Thank you Dave. So thank you to you both. It has been a long day been lots of stuff going on isn't there for both of you. Uh it's been a long day for all of you as well. >> Yeah many of majority of you out on delivery in your workshops and your sorting office. So, thank you to you too. Most importantly, thank you to everyone who's tuned in tonight. Been fantastic numbers, some great engagement in the comments. And as Dave and Martin have both said, stick with your union and we'll get there. Thanks for joining in everybody. >> Thank you.

[Mr Rush]

Internal Opposition: Dave Ward mentioned that some "hardcore" Royal Mail managers are trying to sabotage the deal reached with EP Group [1].

Fascinating. Wheels within wheels, fires within fires.

[Sean06]

Moderators will love mesque quoting that whole post with a silly line of emojis

[yellowbelly]

Moderators will love mesque quoting that whole post with a silly line of emojis

The original post was pretty pointless in the first place, who's going to read that in that format! Mind you it pretty much sums up the actual broadcast perfectly - just erm loads of erm words.

[tramssirhc]

No equalisation until a new delivery method is implemented. Equalisation on a qualifying period basis too. Typical CWU.

[ted_e_bear]

Moderators will love mesque quoting that whole post with a silly line of emojis

The original post was pretty pointless in the first place, who's going to read that in that format! Mind you it pretty much sums up the actual broadcast perfectly - just erm loads of erm words.

I found it pretty useful I skimmed through reading it in about 5 minutes as opposed to watching the whole borefest for over an hour.

[fadetogrey63]

No equalisation until a new delivery method is implemented. Equalisation on a qualifying period basis too. Typical CWU.

This qualifying period, I've read maybe three years, will just cause more resentment, it should be for all new entrants regardless of time in the job, and will it cause a three tier workforce as I can't see it been totally 100% equal with the old contracts..