Advice

Imod · Post by **Imod** » 15 Jul 2019, 20:37

24 hrs contract

Post by **Murdoch** » 15 Jul 2019, 20:47

Imod wrote:Hi. I am new to the forum, and relatively new to RM.

I am in approx 7 months on a 24 hr contract.

In the last 3 months I had finally been on the same duty every day so was starting to feel settled.

But I have now been forced into completing a rural duty in a completely separate DO when I finish my own duty, adding 3 hours to my working day.

I feel it is a step too far. I have been working my day off every week for months. And in my 7 months in the job I have not been able to use a single hour of my accrued annual leave after several requests were rejected.

It feels like its all one way traffic and this latest stunt has me thinking about looking for another job.

This will now see me having to work well beyond my contracted hours (probably double).

I probably would be happy enough to do this some days, but am I obliged to do it? What if I do it some days but other days just work to my contracted hours if I have plans or an appointment?

I have read my contract, but it is very vague in general.

First thing you should know about Royal Mail.

They give out small contracts, but take advantage of new staff who are keen and willing to work over their hours. Often in the naive assumption that they are "paying their dues", or that showing eagerness will earn them some form of goodwill, perhaps with an increase in contracted hours etc.

You'll soon learn that, doing over your hours means nothing except that you've decided to accept voluntary overtime, which you get paid for. It won't count when you finally do get that annual leave (you'll just get base hours), it won't count when a job with more contracted hours comes up (only length of service counts).

So on that basis, any time you want to work your hours. You are free to do so. Only accept overtime on your own terms. And be firm with this, or you'll get taken advantage of.

Imod · Post by **Imod** » 15 Jul 2019, 20:58

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I am slowly realising these things now.

What I want to know is, for example, if I decide to work the hours that are asked of me 3 or 4 days a week, but only to work my contracted hours on the other 1 or 2 days, where do I stand?

Simply put, can I choose which days I am prepared to work beyond my contracted hours, or is it a case of do them all or none at all?

sirchewey · Post by **sirchewey** » 15 Jul 2019, 21:08

Yes, you can pick and choose. You have contracted hours and a set rotate with rolling days off (or should have). Whatever you work beyond that is your choice unless you have signed up for SA (Scheduled Attendance) which as far as I know has a contractual obligation just like your basic working hours which you also accrue extra holiday pay.
Sounds like you need to put your foot down a little. Give them a weeks notice (to be nice) and say that you dont want the overtime but happy to help out occasionally as and when fits with you. They dont have a foot to stand on when it comes to making you do any overtime. If its pissing you off and affecting your personal life tell them to jog on. An overworked postie is an unhappy postie. Do it on your terms not theirs.

fed_up_postie · Post by **fed_up_postie** » 15 Jul 2019, 21:10

Imod wrote:Thanks for the reply.

Yes I am slowly realising these things now.

What I want to know is, for example, if I decide to work the hours that are asked of me 3 or 4 days a week, but only to work my contracted hours on the other 1 or 2 days, where do I stand?

Simply put, can I choose which days I am prepared to work beyond my contracted hours, or is it a case of do them all or none at all?

If you want to work your contractual hours then you are within your rights to do so, dont let them bully you into doing any overtime you do not want to do, it's usually a case of they'll need you long before you need them, I get being on a 24 hr contract is not ideal and overtime is needed to build up the hours but you can just say no.

Jpro747 · Post by **Jpro747** » 15 Jul 2019, 21:24

This is what RM do, hire part timers and then coerce them into working Full time and more, every tuesday off, then never make up their contracts to full time. That way they can save money by not paying what you would get on FT contract for holiday/sick/pension. Many fall for it, don’t be one of them.

Post by **Murdoch** » 15 Jul 2019, 21:42

Imod wrote:Thanks for the reply.

Yes I am slowly realising these things now.

What I want to know is, for example, if I decide to work the hours that are asked of me 3 or 4 days a week, but only to work my contracted hours on the other 1 or 2 days, where do I stand?

Simply put, can I choose which days I am prepared to work beyond my contracted hours, or is it a case of do them all or none at all?

Sure, You can do some, and are not obliged to do all. What tends to happen with new folk is they just get put down on the rota without being asked first. And you don't know any better so you feel obliged to work it.

One thing I'd suggest you do, ask for a print off of your daily contracted hours. To make sure your contract is on the system as a straight 4.8 hours per day. That's not necessarily the case though, some managers will change this so the contract is not a set amount of hours per day, but higher on a Thursday, less on a Tuesday for example (long and shorts). This also becomes an important issue when taking time off, as it's done per hours and not per days.

You should actually be signing off on overtime above your contracted hours on a daily basis. So you should be aware of your contracted hours, and what they actually are on any given day and how much over you will be working each day, but I suspect you have no idea.

If this all sounds needlessly complicated, it's because it is.

Imod · Post by **Imod** » 15 Jul 2019, 21:59

Murdoch wrote:
Imod wrote:Thanks for the reply.

Yes I am slowly realising these things now.

What I want to know is, for example, if I decide to work the hours that are asked of me 3 or 4 days a week, but only to work my contracted hours on the other 1 or 2 days, where do I stand?

Simply put, can I choose which days I am prepared to work beyond my contracted hours, or is it a case of do them all or none at all?
Sure, You can do some, and are not obliged to do all. What tends to happen with new folk is they just get put down on the rota without being asked first. And you don't know any better so you feel obliged to work it.

One thing I'd suggest you do, ask for a print off of your daily contracted hours. To make sure your contract is on the system as a straight 4.8 hours per day. That's not necessarily the case though, some managers will change this so the contract is not a set amount of hours per day, but higher on a Thursday, less on a Tuesday for example (long and shorts). This also becomes an important issue when taking time off, as it's done per hours and not per days.

You should actually be signing off on overtime above your contracted hours on a daily basis. So you should be aware of your contracted hours, and what they actually are on any given day and how much over you will be working each day, but I suspect you have no idea.

If this all sounds needlessly complicated, it's because it is.

Everything in the admin side of RM seems to be needlessly complicated, spreading out overtime hours into different categories of overtime ; pressure/absence etc

I would have thought anything over 24 hrs in the week is classed as overtime.

But it seems if I work 6 days, anything over 4 hrs daily is overtime,

Work 5 days, anything over 4hr 48 daily is overtime.

Work 4 days, anything over 6 hours daily is overtime.

And this is how I am asked to breakdown my 24 hours on my time sheet at the end of each week. You'd need a bloody A level in maths to count up the over time minutes from your start time each day.

So this 'scheduled attendance' is basically RM getting all the benefits of a FT employee without giving the employee all the benefits of a FT contract??

Scama_bug · Post by **Scama_bug** » 16 Jul 2019, 06:27

Jpro747 wrote:This is what RM do, Many fall for it, don’t be one of them.

People have mortgages and families to look out for, instead of not accepting any overtime to prove a point people actually work it and don't think much about it, I'm part time and you best believe I will accept any overtime that I'm offered, I don't know many people that actually have applied for this job that only need the part time hours.

Rumple · Post by **Rumple** » 16 Jul 2019, 08:28

Scama_bug wrote:
Jpro747 wrote:This is what RM do, Many fall for it, don’t be one of them.
People have mortgages and families to look out for.... I don't know many people that actually have applied for this job that only need the part time hours.

That is another of RMs nasty little tricks. At the interview stage most people are told there will be plenty overtime available and a chance to move onto a full time contract. In reality moving onto a FT contract now is virtually 0%.

itinerant · Post by **itinerant** » 16 Jul 2019, 15:39

Scama_bug wrote:I don't know many people that actually have applied for this job that only need the part time hours.

We have a few of us in our office who are part time and don't want the overtime including me. Mainly in our late 40s/50s and downshifting from other jobs (mortgages gone, kids left home etc). When I joined on a 30 hour contract I was put on a 35 hour week duty for the first few months without anyone asking me. They also wanted me to work my day off every week too but I refused. It was only once I felt comfortable in the job that I challenged it and it got sorted out. There seems to be a definite culture of trying it on with the new part-timers which is really poor.

Post by **Murdoch** » 16 Jul 2019, 17:53

Scama_bug wrote:
Jpro747 wrote:This is what RM do, Many fall for it, don’t be one of them.
People have mortgages and families to look out for, instead of not accepting any overtime to prove a point people actually work it and don't think much about it, I'm part time and you best believe I will accept any overtime that I'm offered, I don't know many people that actually have applied for this job that only need the part time hours.

Yeah, people need the money. Most people understand that people have to work, pay bills, feed their kids, etc.

But the only way to send the message to RM that it's unacceptable to continually rely on overtime, and not offer better contracts. Is to complain about the situation incessantly, complain to he managers, complain to the union. Make a noise. Bring up the fact that contracts reviews are supposed to occur, if you continually work beyond your contracted hours. Speak to your rep. Put in a grievance about annual leave situation (the union recommend everybody working over their hours does this). If you just accept your part-time contract while mostly working Full-time, nothing will change. You'll be taken advantage of indefinitely.

And most effectively of all, at targeted times if you are financially able to, withdraw your overtime. Preferably coordinate with other members of staff in the same situation. Ideally do this at busy periods like xmas. No matter what they say, they can't cover this with "agency staff" or casuals. They are useless.

This is where the final point comes in, be really good at the job, if the manager is frequently turning to you to save his ass, then being extremely difficult at times with regards to your contracted hours, actually means something, you become a person that they should want to keep around. Make this clear, state that you'll have to look for a different job, if contracted hours equivalent to what you actually work aren't provided.

Scama_bug · Post by **Scama_bug** » 16 Jul 2019, 18:55

@Murdoch,actually that is some great advice,but is hard to get everyone to think like that.

Also at the Christmas time I heard they can ask you if you want FT contract only for that busy period,is that right?
It doesn't make sense, you are over worked, FT contract just for the busy month then back to normal on the PT hours.

Christmas might be the best time to work your contract hours only and finish on time everyday

DGH · Post by **DGH** » 16 Jul 2019, 19:03

Murdoch wrote:
Yeah, people need the money. Most people understand that people have to work, pay bills, feed their kids, etc.

But the only way to send the message to RM that it's unacceptable to continually rely on overtime, and not offer better contracts. Is to complain about the situation incessantly, complain to he managers, complain to the union. Make a noise. Bring up the fact that contracts reviews are supposed to occur, if you continually work beyond your contracted hours. Speak to your rep. Put in a grievance about annual leave situation (the union recommend everybody working over their hours does this). If you just accept your part-time contract while mostly working Full-time, nothing will change. You'll be taken advantage of indefinitely.

And most effectively of all, at targeted times if you are financially able to, withdraw your overtime. Preferably coordinate with other members of staff in the same situation. Ideally do this at busy periods like xmas. No matter what they say, they can't cover this with "agency staff" or casuals. They are useless.

This is where the final point comes in, be really good at the job, if the manager is frequently turning to you to save his ass, then being extremely difficult at times with regards to your contracted hours, actually means something, you become a person that they should want to keep around. Make this clear, state that you'll have to look for a different job, if contracted hours equivalent to what you actually work aren't provided.

Best post on here for ages, especially the last paragraph.

Post by **Murdoch** » 16 Jul 2019, 20:28

Scama_bug wrote:@Murdoch,actually that is some great advice,but is hard to get everyone to think like that.

Also at the Christmas time I heard they can ask you if you want FT contract only for that busy period,is that right?
It doesn't make sense, you are over worked, FT contract just for the busy month then back to normal on the PT hours.

Christmas might be the best time to work your contract hours only and finish on time everyday

Aye, they can "make you up" to FT over xmas by altering your contract on a temporary basis. Bit of a kick in the teeth for those that work those sort of hours most weeks anyway, but the benefit is that you get a larger Xmas bonus, since they are pro rata.