Why the lack of debate on the Pension Forum

[Martin Walsh]

I know it is not the right thread but really surprised that now the pension forum amendments have been released that there has been no debate on here.

However be in no doubt that the issue of pensions and the decision over whether Europe grants the government state aid is the biggest threat facing postmen and women. I know Park and Loop is not popular but come next May if Europe does not grant state aid than there is a real possibility that then Pension trustees along with Pension regulator will start proceedings which will put Royal Mail into administration. If anyone has experience of a company being in administration they will know the ruthlessness in which Royal Mail will be run.

This is no scare story , the European commission in 2009 rejected British Telecoms request not to pay into the pension protection fund as their pension fund was covered by a crown guarantee.

Even if Europe grants state aid it will depend on what terms. Remember what is just as worrying is the company has such low confidence in Europe granting state aid that in Royal Mail's submission they have failed to Sepecify the type of aid they want , which even opens up the granting of rescue aid which would allow Europe to shut the pension scheme going forward handy for the Tories and break up the company.

Remember there is a lack of understanding on pensions and whilst the final salary scheme has gone , all your service pre 2008 will still be calculated when you get your pension based on the last 3 years of work. The Care Scheme is not a bad scheme and in its terms has RPI rather than CPI and is the only pension scheme which allows for someone to take their final salary pot at say 60 and than at 65 take the care pot which is based on all your service since 2009. Plus now the default retirement age has meant you do not have to retire at 65 it is likely that Royal Mail will have to offer those over 65 the opportunity of redundancy possibly 2 years money.

So I want to hear what people think of the amendments and what people view of the pending decision.

[vigilante]

I know it is not the right thread but really surprised that now the pension forum amendments have been released that there has been no debate on here.

However be in no doubt that the issue of pensions and the decision over whether Europe grants the government state aid is the biggest threat facing postmen and women. I know Park and Loop is not popular but come next May if Europe does not grant state aid than there is a real possibility that then Pension trustees along with Pension regulator will start proceedings which will put Royal Mail into administration. If anyone has experience of a company being in administration they will know the ruthlessness in which Royal Mail will be run.

This is no scare story , the European commission in 2009 rejected British Telecoms request not to pay into the pension protection fund as their pension fund was covered by a crown guarantee.

Even if Europe grants state aid it will depend on what terms. Remember what is just as worrying is the company has such low confidence in Europe granting state aid that in Royal Mail's submission they have failed to Sepecify the type of aid they want , which even opens up the granting of rescue aid which would allow Europe to shut the pension scheme going forward handy for the Tories and break up the company.

Remember there is a lack of understanding on pensions and whilst the final salary scheme has gone , all your service pre 2008 will still be calculated when you get your pension based on the last 3 years of work. The Care Scheme is not a bad scheme and in its terms has RPI rather than CPI and is the only pension scheme which allows for someone to take their final salary pot at say 60 and than at 65 take the care pot which is based on all your service since 2009. Plus now the default retirement age has meant you do not have to retire at 65 it is likely that Royal Mail will have to offer those over 65 the opportunity of redundancy possibly 2 years money.

So I want to hear what people think of the amendments and what people view of the pending decision.

Yes very concerned.
As you say people are maybe forgetting to look at the bigger picture and just at what is happening at local level.
We are all worried about the pensions having paid into it so long!
As for the state aid issue I cant see it happening, the government want to privatise and have for a long time now (by putting post comm in place) and strangulating the company into submission.
Thats my feelings.

[postiel]

There is nothing to debate as unfortuneately there is nothing we can do about it.

[keithposty]

the royal mail will not be privatised without european state aid

i very much doubt europe will oblige as the pension crisis is a result of previous goverments allowing a pension holiday, so due to a legal term called 'emination of the state' whatever goverment is in power cannot profit by a mistake of any previous goverment with a STATE OWNED COMPANY AND PAST/FUTURE PRIVATISATION

IF ROYAL MAIL GOES TITS UP AND INSOLVENCY, WHICH AT THE MOMENT IS INSOLVENT (ONLY THE ASSETTS ARE KEEPING IT AFLOAT) WE WILL BE LEFT WITH A SITUATION THE SAME AS THE ROVER WORKERS

WORK IT OUT

THE PENSION FUND HAS SAY 12 BILLION DEFECIT, BUT 30 BILLION IN ASSETTS, NO WONDER THE GOVERMENT IS DESPERATE TO GET ITS HANDS ON THOSE ASSETTS AT THE EXPENSE OF THE POSTAL WORKERS

AT LEAST THERE IS THE PENSION PROTECTION FUND AS A FALL BACK, SO IT IS NOT ALL GLOOMY NEWS

IS ROYAL MAILS PENSION FUND PROTECTED BY CROWN GUARANTEE, ANYBODY KNOW

[Cut Off King]

I'm not worried, With Billy at the helm, what could go wrong?

[hans solo]

why dont the gvmt bail us out anyway just like the banks and europe
oooops that would benefit working class people and that just will not do .
we should be demonstrating just like vout canadian posties and rest of the world agst corporate greed

[keithposty]

THIS IS WHAT I JUST CANNOT COMPREHEND

this deficit was mostly attributable to a pension contribution holiday by the company for 13 years between 1990 and 2003, which it claimed was driven by legislation forcing companies to use surplus assets above a 105% funding level to either improve benefits or take a contribution holiday.

so when the pension fund started going into deficit, why did not only the goverment and royal mail board, but the pension fund regulators as well, force the pension contributions to be reinstated.

no, they were onto a good thing, all three of them are all the same but in name.
the goverment tries to distant itself from the royal mail when it wants but royal mail is still a public, and not a private company.

WHY IS THE GOVERMENT NOT BEING FORCED TO REPAY ALL THESE CONTRIBUTIONS IT IN EFFECT STOLE FROM THE PENSION FUND MEMBERS. IT WAS NO MORE THAN THEFT WITH NO INTENTION TO REPAY.

whatever goverment is in power has the ultimate responsability in this, not past goverments

WHY IS THE PENSION FUND REGULATORS AND THE CWU ALLOWING THEM TO GET AWAY WITH THIS WHILE DENYING AND TRYING TO EXTINCT THE ROUTE CAUSE ANALYSIS

[fishtank]

I know it is not the right thread but really surprised that now the pension forum amendments have been released that there has been no debate on here.

From speaking to members dingo i think their feelings are this...

If Europe allows state aid our pensions will be moved into Government hands,their value will be reduced,reduced again and eventually be pretty much worthless,the Company will be sold off,broken up,our T&C's will be decimated and our job security and possibly jobs will be a distant memory.
If Europe does not allow state aid and instead opts for rescue aid the Company could be shut down,broken up,our T&C's will be decimated and our job security and possibly jobs will be a distant memory...and our pension may be instantly worthless.

To a great deal of members it's merely semantics.
Not necessarily my position but you have to admit that giving someone the choice of losing both legs or one might be very important in the long term but it's hardly a choice that will bring a smile to your face.

[keithposty]

it still does not answer the question though

how is the goverment of the day not taking direct responsability of past administrations failures

they did not pay into the pension fund for 13 years and used that money for corporate hospitality , bonus, interest free mortage, whatever
it is theft by pecuniary advantage and has to be repaid by the goverment and not the pension members who have allready paid into it once

[Martin Walsh]

Our pension fund is not protected by a crown guarantee.

The pension holiday is only one of a number of reasons for the deficit. The law changes following the Maxwell pension robbery has had a bearing and the stock market down turn and of course there are more people living longer.

Now Royal Mail has to pay 300 million to fund the pension deficit for the next 36 years. This is on top of their normal 450 million payment for pensions. during the years 2013 till 2023 Royal Mail will have pay an additional 107 million.

Now Fish your wrong about our pensions being worthless if state aid comes through , because all service before 2008 will be final salary and when ever you retire be that in 5 or 20 years your service up to 2008 will be based onnyour final salary ie based on 28/80s in the best of last 3 years. All service up to this point and the care scheme will be protected. Remember all service up to 2012 will be protected. This part of the pension scheme will be as good as a crown guarantee. To change this part of the scheme then there would have to change the law through parliament.

Fish I don't accept the members are not interested in pensions , I done two membership meetings in the last week and members want to know about their pensions and what is happening just as much as they want to discuss absorption and revisions.

[hubbahubba]

I don't think FT said people don't care about the pension issue,just that whatever happens its out of our hands,so what's to discuss?

[keithposty]

DINGO

i respect what you are saying but the point remains for whatever reason, royal mail/goverment failed to pay the pension contributions for 13 years

why should they be allowed to get away with it

after all

we paid our share without a pension holiday week in, week out

[MinisterofCucumber]

The amendments are in our favour now but pensions are long term things and the rules will probably get changed down the line.

The State Aid thing is a stitch up. Heads you win, tails I lose. What provoked the EU investigation?

Why were our finances healthy and then suddenly became disastrous?

Liberalisation of the EU postal sector has been an unsuccessful experiment that has made a lot of families poorer and provided a more costly and unreliable service to the majority of users. The postal network is a vital part of each member country's infrastructure. The CWU should lobby the EU to legislate for each country's postal service to remain in the public sector. The taxpayer should be subsidising a postal service that benefits them, not subsidising private companies to use us to deliver the final mile. It does not reflect well on the EU that they can be so easily manipulated by private companies.

Countries need a public sector to provide jobs with decent wages for those doing the non-managerial public sector jobs. We are seeing the effects of laying off public sector workers and slave driving the remainder while reducing their wages. People aren't spending what what they used to and businesses are putting up prices to try to make the same margins out of fewer customers. This is driving more customers away and the recession is getting deeper.

[keithposty]

HERE ,HERE

[Phantom]

The final salary pension was given away back in 2007/2008 by the CWU, they split it from the industrial action argument that was taking place and never returned to it as promised.

So there was no fight by the members despite constant complaints to the CWU HQ to do something. In a word we got f****d IN THE ARSE!!! by Royal Mail and CWU