I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[UrbanPirate]

Your mind, in spite of the glaringly obvious facts, is made up.

One request of you only - if this dispute comes to strike action, do not break that strike and so undermine the sacrifice of your colleagues who are, after all, sacrificing that you also might benefit.

so... no then?

Also, The request to not break the strike. It makes the assumption that strike action will be in any way beneficial to me or the business. Two things im not convinced of.

[UrbanPirate]

Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm

Office workers work 9-5 but probably aren’t walking 12 miles a day near continuously for 4 hours. Remember, it’s someone that is sat in a nice air conditioned office, earning a fat wedge for coming up with ideas on how we should be working. Posting letters in the winter, in the dark up to 5pm (walk ownership, who knows when you’ll finish) is not something that is safe.

Ugh, people who work office jobs have different pressures. Im not saying our job isnt hard. It is. But if you are trying to compare peoples office jobs compared to ours? Il argue you couldn't do there jobs. Different skill sets. Our job is unskilled. It is. Any person you and I know within 3 days could do our jobs. We are very easily replaced. YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF!

Also i keep hearing this 9-5 is unsafe. Oh really? So for the hour that it might be dark. Depending on UK location. Is it really that unsafe? Do you lock yourself in your home the second the sun goes down? I bet you can find yourself to the pub perfectly safe in an evening? Clutching at straws with this argument. Just say you dont want to work until then. Dont pull the unsafe bullshit. Everyone was perfectly happy leaving the office in the morning in the dark! urgh. Pathetic.

[banner]

Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm

Office workers work 9-5 but probably aren’t walking 12 miles a day near continuously for 4 hours. Remember, it’s someone that is sat in a nice air conditioned office, earning a fat wedge for coming up with ideas on how we should be working. Posting letters in the winter, in the dark up to 5pm (walk ownership, who knows when you’ll finish) is not something that is safe.

Ugh, people who work office jobs have different pressures. Im not saying our job isnt hard. It is. But if you are trying to compare peoples office jobs compared to ours? Il argue you couldn't do there jobs. Different skill sets. Our job is unskilled. It is. Any person you and I know within 3 days could do our jobs. We are very easily replaced. YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF!

Also i keep hearing this 9-5 is unsafe. Oh really? So for the hour that it might be dark. Depending on UK location. Is it really that unsafe? Do you lock yourself in your home the second the sun goes down? I bet you can find yourself to the pub perfectly safe in an evening? Clutching at straws with this argument. Just say you dont want to work until then. Dont pull the unsafe bullshit. Everyone was perfectly happy leaving the office in the morning in the dark! urgh. Pathetic.

I'm not so sure about your viewpoint here. Why is Royal Mail staff turnover so high if the job is so straightforward and so well paid? In my experience, Royal Mail use very little first generation unskilled foreign labour from the European continent or elsewhere. Why not if it is so well paid and requires such a limited skill set? Plenty of other businesses use such Labour with no issues.
The reality is that on the face of it, Royal Mail are quite selective in who they choose to entrust the Mail with and the public will not be happy if the business tends towards employing any tom,dick and harry so that they can pay them low wages with poor terms.

[wacko74]

Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm

Office workers work 9-5 but probably aren’t walking 12 miles a day near continuously for 4 hours. Remember, it’s someone that is sat in a nice air conditioned office, earning a fat wedge for coming up with ideas on how we should be working. Posting letters in the winter, in the dark up to 5pm (walk ownership, who knows when you’ll finish) is not something that is safe.

Ugh, people who work office jobs have different pressures. Im not saying our job isnt hard. It is. But if you are trying to compare peoples office jobs compared to ours? Il argue you couldn't do there jobs. Different skill sets. Our job is unskilled. It is. Any person you and I know within 3 days could do our jobs. We are very easily replaced. YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF!

Also i keep hearing this 9-5 is unsafe. Oh really? So for the hour that it might be dark. Depending on UK location. Is it really that unsafe? Do you lock yourself in your home the second the sun goes down? I bet you can find yourself to the pub perfectly safe in an evening? Clutching at straws with this argument. Just say you dont want to work until then. Dont pull the unsafe bullshit. Everyone was perfectly happy leaving the office in the morning in the dark! urgh. Pathetic.

I don't know why I'm even giving you the courtesy of a response as you're clearly just a wind up merchant, but you really are talking complete rubbish regrading delivering in the dark and have quite obviously never done it yourself.

I have and I can tell you it takes 2-3x longer to deliver the mail... front gardens that have hedges or fences are shaded from the street lights so are very dark, especially at ground level so you can't see where your taking your next step, you often cant read the addresses on mail unless you stop and stand directly under a street light, imagine trying to do that with multi-bundles! You can't see house numbers from the road if your in the van doing pkts, even just looking for pkts in the back of the van takes a lot longer in the dark.

Also, according to our area rep, the D.O's furthest from the MC the later your start time would be and could be as late as 2pm, so that would see us delivering until 7-8pm which would be up to 4 hours in the dark, not the 1 hour that you claim.

[glfp]

Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm

I'm not so sure about your viewpoint here. Why is Royal Mail staff turnover so high if the job is so straightforward and so well paid? In my experience, Royal Mail use very little first generation unskilled foreign labour from the European continent or elsewhere. Why not if it is so well paid and requires such a limited skill set? Plenty of other businesses use such Labour with no issues.
The reality is that on the face of it, Royal Mail are quite selective in who they choose to entrust the Mail with and the public will not be happy if the business tends towards employing any tom,dick and harry so that they can pay them low wages with poor terms.

Staff turnover is such because RM and its staff and Union don't operate unlike any other business / workforce.
"Seniority"

1) If you are a new starter you get moved from round to round - in some cases office to office - "senior staff" do one round that they can pick and never have to move from that round
2) There is a culture of "I'm all right jack" in RM - unlike any other job I've worked in so very few staff ever help, give advice to new starters.
3) BIG ONE - Senior staff have a rotating day off - so can plan days off, long weekends a year or so in advance - new starters more than often don't know their day off until the thursday or friday - a few days before.

If new starters got the above they would think the job is a piece of piss.
Very few "senior" member of staff starting the job now could hack it.

Any new starters / floaters who vote YES and strike need their heads examined and need to look at some of these posts regarding 2008 pensions.
8 measly strike days and you went back - where was the fight for those pensions for newer members? .

You'll do it again - get what you want and trot back to work.

In 5 years time a similar scenario will emerge.
"We went off for 8 days and there wasn't an appetite for more strikes so we let this happen to new starters"

Proud to vote with my principles. NO
Will happily walk through the gate on strike days for the above reasons.
Solidarity my Arse.

Oh by the way I've got another Tuesday off today along with lots of reserves.
2 Tier workforce at its finest.

ATB
Graham

[UrbanPirate]

Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm

Office workers work 9-5 but probably aren’t walking 12 miles a day near continuously for 4 hours. Remember, it’s someone that is sat in a nice air conditioned office, earning a fat wedge for coming up with ideas on how we should be working. Posting letters in the winter, in the dark up to 5pm (walk ownership, who knows when you’ll finish) is not something that is safe.

Ugh, people who work office jobs have different pressures. Im not saying our job isnt hard. It is. But if you are trying to compare peoples office jobs compared to ours? Il argue you couldn't do there jobs. Different skill sets. Our job is unskilled. It is. Any person you and I know within 3 days could do our jobs. We are very easily replaced. YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF!

Also i keep hearing this 9-5 is unsafe. Oh really? So for the hour that it might be dark. Depending on UK location. Is it really that unsafe? Do you lock yourself in your home the second the sun goes down? I bet you can find yourself to the pub perfectly safe in an evening? Clutching at straws with this argument. Just say you dont want to work until then. Dont pull the unsafe bullshit. Everyone was perfectly happy leaving the office in the morning in the dark! urgh. Pathetic.

I don't know why I'm even giving you the courtesy of a response as you're clearly just a wind up merchant, but you really are talking complete rubbish regrading delivering in the dark and have quite obviously never done it yourself.

I have and I can tell you it takes 2-3x longer to deliver the mail... front gardens that have hedges or fences are shaded from the street lights so are very dark, especially at ground level so you can't see where your taking your next step, you often cant read the addresses on mail unless you stop and stand directly under a street light, imagine trying to do that with multi-bundles! You can't see house numbers from the road if your in the van doing pkts, even just looking for pkts in the back of the van takes a lot longer in the dark.

Also, according to our area rep, the D.O's furthest from the MC the later your start time would be and could be as late as 2pm, so that would see us delivering until 7-8pm which would be up to 4 hours in the dark, not the 1 hour that you claim.

Im not a wind up merchant. You are just getting wound up as I have an opposing viewpoint to you and am quite happy to point out some truths. Totally agree with glgp when they said that senior staff couldnt hack joining now. Biggest moaners in the office are the senior staff. Like a broken record. day after day.

Also, I hear what you are saying about delivering in the dark. But why is it everyone in my office would be quite happy to start as early as possible and head out in the dark if they could?

[Tman]

You make a fair point there.
I can just imagine a load of people sitting in the pub discussing how difficult their job is. Mechanics who fix HGV's by the side of a motorway, scaffolders rigging high rise buildings, people who work in culverts and sewers and then the postie pipes up..."I deliver letters....in the dark!"
Clearly it's a winning call.

[banner]

You make a fair point there.
I can just imagine a load of people sitting in the pub discussing how difficult their job is. Mechanics who fix HGV's by the side of a motorway, scaffolders rigging high rise buildings, people who work in culverts and sewers and then the postie pipes up..."I deliver letters....in the dark!"
Clearly it's a winning call.

I think argument is that it may be uneconomical to deliver for substantial periods in the dark.
People employed in those professions you mentioned are payed way more than posties and so they should but why should posties pay be reducing in comparison when it can be argued that the job has gotten harder since privatisation?

[banner]

Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm

I'm not so sure about your viewpoint here. Why is Royal Mail staff turnover so high if the job is so straightforward and so well paid? In my experience, Royal Mail use very little first generation unskilled foreign labour from the European continent or elsewhere. Why not if it is so well paid and requires such a limited skill set? Plenty of other businesses use such Labour with no issues.
The reality is that on the face of it, Royal Mail are quite selective in who they choose to entrust the Mail with and the public will not be happy if the business tends towards employing any tom,dick and harry so that they can pay them low wages with poor terms.

Staff turnover is such because RM and its staff and Union don't operate unlike any other business / workforce.
"Seniority"

1) If you are a new starter you get moved from round to round - in some cases office to office - "senior staff" do one round that they can pick and never have to move from that round
2) There is a culture of "I'm all right jack" in RM - unlike any other job I've worked in so very few staff ever help, give advice to new starters.
3) BIG ONE - Senior staff have a rotating day off - so can plan days off, long weekends a year or so in advance - new starters more than often don't know their day off until the thursday or friday - a few days before.

If new starters got the above they would think the job is a piece of piss.
Very few "senior" member of staff starting the job now could hack it.

Any new starters / floaters who vote YES and strike need their heads examined and need to look at some of these posts regarding 2008 pensions.
8 measly strike days and you went back - where was the fight for those pensions for newer members? .

You'll do it again - get what you want and trot back to work.

In 5 years time a similar scenario will emerge.
"We went off for 8 days and there wasn't an appetite for more strikes so we let this happen to new starters"

Proud to vote with my principles. NO
Will happily walk through the gate on strike days for the above reasons.
Solidarity my Arse.

Oh by the way I've got another Tuesday off today along with lots of reserves.
2 Tier workforce at its finest.

ATB
Graham

Strange that you quote most of these problems and blame seniority. Well, when I joined I used to do all that for a very limited amount of time because there were always duties on the board to pick as well as revisions every few years. Only since modernisation and privatisation has there been a change to that reality because the management wants this total flexibility from as many staff as possible.
So your solution to it being so terrible for new starters who have to deal with an erratic work life is to get rid of seniority and have everyone having an erratic work life and having favouritism be at the heart of the workplace which will create more resentment than seniority.
How about putting duties on the board and having revisions to allow the seniority process to work as intended?

[milly]

I take it that anyone who doesn't like seniority would not be then bothered if some one were to barge in front of them if they were queuing in a shop.

[glfp]

I take it that anyone who doesn't like seniority would not be then bothered if some one were to barge in front of them if they were queuing in a shop.

Utter nonsense.

[mark.cup]

I take it that anyone who doesn't like seniority would not be then bothered if some one were to barge in front of them if they were queuing in a shop.

Utter nonsense.

It's funny how all these new entrants act like seniority is evil and that anyone who has some never got treated the way they do now....

Well I've been with Royal Mail 23ish years and spent the 1st part of my career as a reserve we got chucked on single rounds sometimes more than 1 a day...

Whole weeks spare getting pulled off rounds just as you had bagged up to be put on a round a female colleague had cried about then you found the other walk hadn't been touched!

No shared vans so no one to hold your hand on the way round

I am only in the middle of the pack and can tell you I have always thought seniority is the fairest way! am I envious or jealous of the top 10 senior posties in my office no not one bit they deserve it

[glfp]

I take it that anyone who doesn't like seniority would not be then bothered if some one were to barge in front of them if they were queuing in a shop.

Utter nonsense.

It's funny how all these new entrants act like seniority is evil and that anyone who has some never got treated the way they do now....

Well I've been with Royal Mail 23ish years and spent the 1st part of my career as a reserve we got chucked on single rounds sometimes more than 1 a day...

Whole weeks spare getting pulled off rounds just as you had bagged up to be put on a round a female colleague had cried about then you found the other walk hadn't been touched!

No shared vans so no one to hold your hand on the way round

I am only in the middle of the pack and can tell you I have always thought seniority is the fairest way! am I envious or jealous of the top 10 senior posties in my office no not one bit they deserve it

How very sad.

[glfp]

I take it that anyone who doesn't like seniority would not be then bothered if some one were to barge in front of them if they were queuing in a shop.

Utter nonsense.

It's funny how all these new entrants act like seniority is evil and that anyone who has some never got treated the way they do now....

Well I've been with Royal Mail 23ish years and spent the 1st part of my career as a reserve we got chucked on single rounds sometimes more than 1 a day...

Whole weeks spare getting pulled off rounds just as you had bagged up to be put on a round a female colleague had cried about then you found the other walk hadn't been touched!

No shared vans so no one to hold your hand on the way round

I am only in the middle of the pack and can tell you I have always thought seniority is the fairest way! am I envious or jealous of the top 10 senior posties in my office no not one bit they deserve it

How very sad.

Doesn't make it right.
Maybe if things changed some offices wouldn't be down to the bare bones because new starters are treated like sh*te and forever jack it in.

"But hey its always been like that".
That's a post persons motto isn't it ?

Christ I give up !

I welcome a big shake up and I think its on its way !
ATB
Graham

[TrueBlueTerrier]

The one I can't understand because he appears to have not done any research, or even read previous posts. Its also apparent he doesn't understand the term solidarity.

However, to clear up a few points. We cannot legally strike without the Union notifying Royal Mail, therefore when he berates "seniors" for not going on strike over his pension he is targeting the wrong people. We didn't call off the strikes, or recommending accepting the situation as it was - the Union did.

With solidarity, apparently, it only happens when it suits him. You can't claim the staff of 2009 did not show solidarity when they themselves will ignore it if the vote goes against them. You can have a different opinion, but if you truly want solidarity, and you think the Union is there for all, not just yourself, then in my honest opinion you accept the outcome of the vote or leave the Union.

I'll state it again I voted against the agreements that came about around the same time as the Pension changes, and if they had asked I would have been on strike again. However, the majority voting decided to accept what was on offer, so I find it disgusting that I am now being accused of showing lack of solidarity just because I started before 2009.