election 2015

[Glenno]

Whilst we are still on track I believe we are still predominantly owned by the Govt (28-30%) as it stands at the mo

[borders]

There's a very good chance that the average bloke in the street does perceive the various "problems" (as listed in the tweet) to be worse stats-wise than they really are, but that doesn't mean those "problems" don't exist or aren't valid concerns.
Apart from that, posting a link to what some Joe says on Twitter is hardly a form of proof for or against the argument; after all WTF is he and where did his stats come from?

Don't know who he is but his sources are YouGov and Ipsos Mori.

probably escaped his notice , he is more concerned with constructing a vile and as abusive reply as possible . no change there eh , Mr Tman ...

[Tman]

Don't know who he is but his sources are YouGov and Ipsos Mori.
probably escaped his notice , he is more concerned with constructing a vile and as abusive reply as possible . no change there eh , Mr Tman ..

There's nothing vile or abusive in the reply (but thanks for the over-dramatic description anyway) but then you personalising the thread in an attempt at a rebuttal......no change there, either.
Incidentally, playing the vile racist card when immigration etc is being debated is so inane and worn out. You might have noticed that even Labour are happy to talk about the "problem" of immigration now....

[savo]

We're all "working class", anyone that works for a living is "working class" and we've voted in the Tories as the majority party to represent us.
Labour are not for the "working class", they are for the socialists who want to keep poor people poor and divide us up into conflicting groups depending on the size of your wage packet.
"Ordinary working class" don't want to be divided, we want to be given the opportunites to increase the size of our wage packets without feeling guilty or being punished for that success.
Punishment = higher taxes.
When Labour figure that out, that every person wants to aspire to something more then they might get back into power

[borders]

Yebbut that's all so last century Mr DV....I mean we got curries an' gangsta rap, unprecedented gun crime, organised child molestation, cross border/continent crime, hate-filled religious nutters, organised/forced/underage/sham marriages, Halal slaughter, FGM, unprecedented levels of slavery, corruption, nepotism, the list goes on.
I mean, life must have been just so boring up to the 1950s....

What exactly have curries got to do with anything?
As to the rest of your list, did most of those things not exist without the EU?
And most clearly have nothing to do with European integration. It is quite simply a list intended to demonise a section of the community.
It is blatantly racist and you are a pathetic excuse for a man.

Ultimately it doesn't matter because the right wing will lose the referendum and Britain will remain in the EU.

well here is one example and the response was merited.
it is plainly obvious that Dvbuk 55 and myself don't agree on the subject of Europe and the positivity/negativity of immigration etc . he is well able to fight his corner and in his eyes he believes he is right. I have no problem with that , life goes on. I thought he was giving as good as he got . why don't you offer up some positive comments to support Dvbuk 55 views than just attacking my view ??

[dvbuk55]

it is plainly obvious that Dvbuk 55 and myself don't agree on the subject of Europe and the positivity/negativity of immigration etc . he is well able to fight his corner and in his eyes he believes he is right. I have no problem with that , life goes on. I thought he was giving as good as he got . why don't you offer up some positive comments to support Dvbuk 55 views than just attacking my view ??

Don't get me wrong borders, I'm not against immigration but it has to be controlled and measured. As for Europe - well I equate the EU to a next door neighbour demanding you take your fence down, only buy from certain shops, makes the rules by which you live your life, saying that you can only eat meat on certain days and have to give a proportion of your income to them so they can continue to tell you what to do. Simplistic it may be but then I am a simple man.

[Tman]

why don't you offer up some positive comments to support Dvbuk 55 views than just attacking my view ??

Same old borders, it's not all about you and your views.
Why would I support DV? You've just said he can hold his own.....shall we all just congregate into two camps, then?
Incidentally there's nothing "vile" in mentioning things like FGM and organised child sex exploitation, and the sad fact is that had more of those in positions of power and authority "mentioned it" more often rather than hiding behind the liberal "different culture" bollix then maybe many more young lives wouldn't be blighted in the way they have.
Now that IS vile.

[borders]

Tman- Posts: 2303 -Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:57,am
Borders - Posts: 1211-Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:10,am
well they say the figures don't lie , seems you like to express your view a fair bit !! it isn't all about you Mr Tman .
nobody in their right minds would suggest that anything other than the word vile is used to describe those things you mentioned in your list. unfortunately , the human being is capable of doing some horrendous things and that has been the case since time begun.

[fishtank]

Incidentally there's nothing "vile" in mentioning things like FGM and organised child sex exploitation, and the sad fact is that had more of those in positions of power and authority "mentioned it" more often rather than hiding behind the liberal "different culture" bollix then maybe many more young lives wouldn't be blighted in the way they have.
Now that IS vile.

I think the problem would be if that becomes pretty much your only response to any discussion on immigration, that's vile and racist because it does not apply and has no relevance to the vast majority of immigrants. FGM and child sex exploitation have very little to do with the debate over immigration, it's a cultural issue, very important but mostly irrelevant to free movement of labour unless you believe that all immigrants are the same.

I have to say reading your many posts on the subject (slight obsession of yours?) and seeing the lack of respect you show to those who don't share your ethnic and geographic background I have to say my money is on exactly that.

[Tman]

I have to say reading your many posts on the subject (slight obsession of yours?) and seeing the lack of respect you show to those who don't share your ethnic and geographic background I have to say my money is on exactly that.

I think you need to revisit my post of 2.44 on May 13 and read it in the context of the thread at that point.

Had I been merely listing the things that I allegedly perceive immigrants to be guilty of/blameworthy for, would I have really said "curries an' gangsta rap"?
Still, well done for following the usual debate-stifling trick of "but you said those words, therefore you are clearly guilty of believing that all immigrants do all these things."
Incidentally, how do you know what my ethnic background is? You may want to revisit that statement too, although such presumption to prove a somewhat tenuous point? Really?

[fishtank]

Still, well done for following the usual debate-stifling trick of "but you said those words, therefore you are clearly guilty of believing that all immigrants do all these things."

I don't think you're guilty of believing the lie, after all you're a reasonably intelligent guy, I think you're guilty of repeating the lie, a much more reprehensible crime.

[chrisj]

People that are passionate about the benefits of immigration do need a different strategy: less of the emotion and trying to make others feel guilty... You cannot convince people when they withdraw into their shells - you do not listen to them, and they do not listen to you; and might even be far more negative than previously.

Repeatedly, some of us have talked about better and less immigration and so on... The response from some has been to talk about Little Englanders, pulling up the draw-bridge and people not liking foreigners... If that is not stifling the debate, then I dont know what that phrase means.

This is one of the reasons why someone like Nigel Farage can be seen to have won a debate on EU/Immigration against Nick Clegg. The same sort of reasons why the shy-Tory voters came out in drove to vote against Labour (they probably do not probably even like Tories that much) These people are sick and tired of being made to feel guilty for whatever reasons (concerns about mass-migration or 'perceived' Labour being against people that want to get on and those that do well). These people often find their opinions drowned by hysterics and emotions - so why tell anyone (even pollster) their feelings when the other side is not ready to listen.

There is an article about this - I will try and dig it out.

[motherhubbard]

TBF though Chris, when presented with an article outlining the economic benefits of immigration your only response was "why should I believe that"?

You have no arguments against immigration.
We cannot be stifling a debate that isn't happening.

[motherhubbard]

It took a number of years to recover after the war .

And how did we recover?
Simple answer - Windrush

[chrisj]

Come on, do you really believe everything that you read? I do not believe everything that what was in the article and I gave lots of good reasons and examples of where think-tanks of been wrong in the past and where they are often most likely to be biased. there are lots of subjectives and emotions that cannot be easily measured and they do count; also just because someone do not claim benefits or pay taxes does not mean they are not taking other things out of the system or providing a squeeze of limited resources.

Just because you present an article does not mean I have to accept and it does not mean I cannot give you a counter-article. That is what debating is and there is where you were stifling the debate.

Take the financial crash for example, only a few people predicted the problems but they were largely ignored and in fact ridiculed because people sometimes behave like sheep. Similar can be found when you read reports about climate change or fracking: not that I support or against the arguments but it has been found out that some of the academics were manipulating the figures.

The other thing about the debate is that Immigration is not the only issue surrounding the EU... Having said all that, I think the UK will vote to stay in. There are people that will always vote against but many also will vote in favour, others will be convinced by good arguments and evidence or some facts and a large majority will be scared into voting for the EU...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/cameron-could ... ml#WQ7Vu1T" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cameron has probably decided to go in early for the referendum because many of the conditions favours him, new government, almost all the opposition are pro-EU (and they are rudderless), the UK economy is doing fine and the EU is listening to the UK concerns and they will almost certainly give concessions and they might even reform and possible renegotiates osme treaties. I think the EU needs UK more than the UK needs the EU - that is just my view, for now.