Executive action hits London

[BELIAL]

I agree with you we should do all we can to make people aware of the truth,but as you recognise that will be a steep uphill battle.
I think the crucial point is that we do not for one second let the prospect of unfavourable media reports and their effect on opinion become a recipe for inertia and fatalism

[andy2007]

Exactly! We need to start our Media counterattack ASAP, and get on with arranging the neccessary I/A. Don't forget, it'll take a few weeks to arrange official I/A in the areas that haven't already been Balloted. So the sooner we start, the better. And if we start the Media campaign, during the Balloting. We've got a fair chance of at least some of the Public being aware of the REAL reasons for the action.

Where we could come unstuck, is: If we fail to get the message out to the Public, until AFTER Strikes are announced. It's too late to do that for London and Scotland. Which is obviously why RM have anounced the pay freeze when they did. But even so, it's no reason to give up. There's still a chance to make the Public realise that this has FA to do with wages.

Of course, we do need to do something about the pay freeze. But they weren't balloted on that, so it has absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the existing disputes.

[Darren Bent]

So what is the reason for possible strike ?

I gather it is not about pay and is this to say no to all changes and cut ?

Are the Midlands getting involved ?

[borders]

Of course it matters! If the Government can convince the Public that we're just a bunch of greedy b*****ds, looking after no. 1. Then how long do you think it'll be, before there is a Public backlash against US?
I'm ok, as I work indoors. But what about all of you, who actually go out in Public, delivering the Mail?
Would you REALLY want to be facing a majority of people, who were angry with you, for causing supposedly unneccessary disruption. When they, themselves are struggling with a pay freeze, drop in wages, or even redundancy?!?!?

As a wise man once said (sorry, I can't remember who): The truth will set you free!

Thats a good saying,but if you are linking it in a positive way to our corporate media machine then I think you are mistaken.
Public opinion is routinely managed and manipulated by the media,the truth has very little to do with our modern news media . What stories make the news,the tone and content of those that do are all monitored and controlled ,even the "independent' BBC news output is subject to government approval. The truth is carefully edited or buried under a smokescreen of safe issues,red herrings ,agenda setting is a daily practice.
So in truth even if we went on strike to save ten thousand starving infants we would still be portrayed as rabid commie dogs in the media if our actions threatened govt. plans or fat cat profits.True ,there is no point handing the media our heads on a plate, say by striking at xmas,but we will be vilified whatever we do.
In a sense if you swallow the lie about public opinion being all important then you've lost already because you will never control the means to influence it, the odds and wealth are stacked against you. Public opinion never negotiated a settlement to any industrial action, it's only power lies in it's ability to influence your thinking and actions. To be honest ,the public can "backlash' all they like when I walk out cos I won't be seeing them,and after I've got my terms and conditions secured I think I would be able to shrug off a few insults with a smile on my face Who knows maybe some will be inspired by our stand and refusal to give in to the bone grinding profit machine.

i agree with Belial on this one, very doubtful we would ever win a media campaign against the State, look at how the biggest selling newspaper vilified us in the last strike for example.People love to blame an easy target for their problems . i am more concerned about getting a yes vote amongst the workforce because where i work most people are oblivious as to what is happening in other areas. matters have become localised which plays into the hands of RM management.

[stokes11eg]

Of course it matters! If the Government can convince the Public that we're just a bunch of greedy b*****ds, looking after no. 1. Then how long do you think it'll be, before there is a Public backlash against US?
I'm ok, as I work indoors. But what about all of you, who actually go out in Public, delivering the Mail?
Would you REALLY want to be facing a majority of people, who were angry with you, for causing supposedly unneccessary disruption. When they, themselves are struggling with a pay freeze, drop in wages, or even redundancy?!?!?

As a wise man once said (sorry, I can't remember who): The truth will set you free!

Thats a good saying,but if you are linking it in a positive way to our corporate media machine then I think you are mistaken.
Public opinion is routinely managed and manipulated by the media,the truth has very little to do with our modern news media . What stories make the news,the tone and content of those that do are all monitored and controlled ,even the "independent' BBC news output is subject to government approval. The truth is carefully edited or buried under a smokescreen of safe issues,red herrings ,agenda setting is a daily practice.
So in truth even if we went on strike to save ten thousand starving infants we would still be portrayed as rabid commie dogs in the media if our actions threatened govt. plans or fat cat profits.True ,there is no point handing the media our heads on a plate, say by striking at xmas,but we will be vilified whatever we do.
In a sense if you swallow the lie about public opinion being all important then you've lost already because you will never control the means to influence it, the odds and wealth are stacked against you. Public opinion never negotiated a settlement to any industrial action, it's only power lies in it's ability to influence your thinking and actions. To be honest ,the public can "backlash' all they like when I walk out cos I won't be seeing them,and after I've got my terms and conditions secured I think I would be able to shrug off a few insults with a smile on my face Who knows maybe some will be inspired by our stand and refusal to give in to the bone grinding profit machine.

i agree with Belial on this one, very doubtful we would ever win a media campaign against the State, look at how the biggest selling newspaper vilified us in the last strike for example.People love to blame an easy target for their problems . i am more concerned about getting a yes vote amongst the workforce because where i work most people are oblivious as to what is happening in other areas. matters have become localised which plays into the hands of RM management.

Strangely, in the past, a considerable number of customers have been quite supportive during other strikes.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

John 8:31-32 "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Public Opinion does matter it affects the strength of the strike.

In rock solid offices or ones classed by RM as "Militant" then public opinion usually has no effect as members are sure of their cause.

In weak offices or with members who are unsure if they should go on strike then if public opinion goes against the strike they will cross the picket lines. The more that cross the lines the more ammunition RM have and the more likely they are to say the strike is crumbling or not supported by the majority.

[johnnyp]

So what is the reason for possible strike ?

I gather it is not about pay and is this to say no to all changes and cut ?

Are the Midlands getting involved ?

Management are pushing ahead without agreements,enforcing revisions that more then likely wont work,and are going to rip our terms and conditions to shreads We know that in offices savings could be made,but no new machinery is in place to deal with this yet We have all ways had agreements to deal with change,but this time management dont want negotiations with us it will be full steam ahead and any offices that show weakness will be first for the slaughter.Get on to your local rep and find out what your branch is doing,NO ONE should be agreeing to savings untill we have a national agreement which covers everything.

[BELIAL]

John 8:31-32 "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Public Opinion does matter it affects the strength of the strike.

In rock solid offices or ones classed by RM as "Militant" then public opinion usually has no effect as members are sure of their cause.

In weak offices or with members who are unsure if they should go on strike then if public opinion goes against the strike they will cross the picket lines. The more that cross the lines the more ammunition RM have and the more likely they are to say the strike is crumbling or not supported by the majority.

Stokes makes a good point, the more propaganda our media pump out, the more people learn from their own experience that what we are being fed is a diet of 'doublespeak', spin if you like "but you can't fool all the people all the time"
Public Opinion is largely out of our hands, it is a weapon that our political masters will gleefully turn on us if we fail to maintain our alloted role. But public opinion can huff and puff all it likes and if our house is made of stone it will affect us not one jot. You said it yourself of rock solid offices,it is clearly true.
My conclusions on weaker offices differ from yours though. Since we will never control the mass media it will always be used to undermine us in the way you mentioned ,don't lets waste time and effort even considering it. The key to success in these weaker offices is rock solid organisation,improved comms, more work,more information and more education.All these things are within the power of the union to achieve ,indeed it should be our first priority. Not much point trying to appeal to the better nature of the media wolves because they answer to different masters, lets just build all our houses out of stone.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Stokes makes a good point, the more propaganda our media pump out, the more people learn from their own experience that what we are being fed is a diet of 'doublespeak', spin if you like "but you can't fool all the people all the time"
Public Opinion is largely out of our hands, it is a weapon that our political masters will gleefully turn on us if we fail to maintain our alloted role. But public opinion can huff and puff all it likes and if our house is made of stone it will affect us not one jot. You said it yourself of rock solid offices,it is clearly true.
My conclusions on weaker offices differ from yours though. Since we will never control the mass media it will always be used to undermine us in the way you mentioned ,don't lets waste time and effort even considering it. The key to success in these weaker offices is rock solid organisation,improved comms, more work,more information and more education.All these things are within the power of the union to achieve ,indeed it should be our first priority. Not much point trying to appeal to the better nature of the media wolves because they answer to different masters, lets just build all our houses out of stone.

Cracking post and whole heartedly agree

[belle smith]

Stokes makes a good point, the more propaganda our media pump out, the more people learn from their own experience that what we are being fed is a diet of 'doublespeak', spin if you like "but you can't fool all the people all the time"
Public Opinion is largely out of our hands, it is a weapon that our political masters will gleefully turn on us if we fail to maintain our alloted role. But public opinion can huff and puff all it likes and if our house is made of stone it will affect us not one jot. You said it yourself of rock solid offices,it is clearly true.
My conclusions on weaker offices differ from yours though. Since we will never control the mass media it will always be used to undermine us in the way you mentioned ,don't lets waste time and effort even considering it. The key to success in these weaker offices is rock solid organisation,improved comms, more work,more information and more education.All these things are within the power of the union to achieve ,indeed it should be our first priority. Not much point trying to appeal to the better nature of the media wolves because they answer to different masters, lets just build all our houses out of stone.

Cracking post and whole heartedly agree

whole heartedly disagree!

if HQ had made a better fist of the public argument last time out (specifically Hayes & Ward) then maybe RM would have been under pressure to backdown rather than us, and their would never have been a secound ballot, on roughly the same terms as the first.

I'm more than happy to go on strike i am certian that it's absolutly neccasery, have been trying to influence a few waviers in our office and firmly belive that we would and will get a yes if and when we are balloted. but we achieved a yes vote for strike action in 2007 and even had a national strike, but in the event RM just toughed it out. Lots of people have debts to pay and can't afford to lose large sums through protracted strike action, they won't break a strike but will vote to go back to work on almost any terms once they have already lost money that they can't afford.

We need to strike but we need HQ to make our case in the media this isn't the 70's much harder to win strikes now and we will not do it just with people standing at thier work gates.

[Thats a good saying,but if you are linking it in a positive way to our corporate media machine then I think you are mistaken.
Public opinion is routinely managed and manipulated by the media,the truth has very little to do with our modern news media . What stories make the news,the tone and content of those that do are all monitored and controlled ,even the "independent' BBC news output is subject to government approval. The truth is carefully edited or buried under a smokescreen of safe issues,red herrings ,agenda setting is a daily practice.

is every journalist complicit in this conspirasy? i think that sounds like fatalism.

[BELIAL]

whole heartedly disagree!

if HQ had made a better fist of the public argument last time out (specifically Hayes & Ward) then maybe RM would have been under pressure to backdown rather than us, and their would never have been a secound ballot, on roughly the same terms as the first.

I'm more than happy to go on strike i am certian that it's absolutly neccasery, have been trying to influence a few waviers in our office and firmly belive that we would and will get a yes if and when we are balloted. but we achieved a yes vote for strike action in 2007 and even had a national strike, but in the event RM just toughed it out. Lots of people have debts to pay and can't afford to lose large sums through protracted strike action, they won't break a strike but will vote to go back to work on almost any terms once they have already lost money that they can't afford.

We need to strike but we need HQ to make our case in the media this isn't the 70's much harder to win strikes now and we will not do it just with people standing at thier work gates.



is every journalist complicit in this conspirasy? i think that sounds like fatalism.

Thats not what I wrote and, a peculiar definition of fatalism as well.
Lots of people will have lots more debts to pay when they get a real term pay cut and cut in hours,lots of people won't have a job at all unless they are prepared to fight for it. I suppose you could put your faith in RM having some sort benign conscience but I personally haven't seen any evidence for that.
I think it's a bit simplistic to claim that the nature of our last agreement was determined by our leaderships media presentation style.
Don't get me wrong, if you know of any ways we could get the likes of the MAIL;Times;FT;Torygraph;SKY NEWS;BBC etc to present our case without bias and spin then by all means share it, after all it wouldn't do any harm. Myself ,can't see that ever happening so you'll just waste your time tying your hands behind your back in a futile attempt to curry favour with a few fat cat media moguls whose personal interests will always be in direct conflict with your interests. Public opinion is just a distraction,part of the bosses game,the public do not elect their postmen,and if you can show me an instance of RM ever responding to public opinion in any meaningful way I'd be very surprised

[belle smith]

BELIAL
Thats not what I wrote and, a peculiar definition of fatalism as well.
Lots of people will have lots more debts to pay when they get a real term pay cut and cut in hours,lots of people won't have a job at all unless they are prepared to fight for it. I suppose you could put your faith in RM having some sort benign conscience but I personally haven't seen any evidence for that.
I think it's a bit simplistic to claim that the nature of our last agreement was determined by our leaderships media presentation style.
Don't get me wrong, if you know of any ways we could get the likes of the MAIL;Times;FT;Torygraph;SKY NEWS;BBC etc to present our case without bias and spin then by all means share it, after all it wouldn't do any harm. Myself ,can't see that ever happening so you'll just waste your time tying your hands behind your back in a futile attempt to curry favour with a few fat cat media moguls whose personal interests will always be in direct conflict with your interests. Public opinion is just a distraction,part of the bosses game,the public do not elect their postmen,and if you can show me an instance of RM ever responding to public opinion in any meaningful way I'd be very surprised

Okay you didn't say there was a conspiracy, i possabley extrapelated somthing that wasn't there...so my appoligies you obviously don't belive that it's possable to get a fair hearing in the media though so dont think theres anything peculiar about describing your outlook on the possability of getting a fair hearing as fatalistic, which is what i meant although wasn't explicit on.

Lots of people will have lots more debts to pay when they get a real term pay cut and cut in hours,lots of people won't have a job at all unless they are prepared to fight for it. I suppose you could put your faith in RM having some sort benign conscience but I personally haven't seen any evidence for that.

Think you know that i agree with you on that, we only disagree about tactics.
I do think it makes a diffrence how HQ represent us in the media and it mattered last time, When :cfo is wondering around patronisingly saying "we're simply asking people to work all the hours they are paid for","these policies are holding the company back" how difficult is it to retorte that "these terms and conditions were introduced by :cfo & :lfo in 2004 and if they are holding the company back then why did they introduce them" how difficult is it to point out that RM lobbied Postcomm in 2005 to be exempet from fines for Quality service failures due to IA, when previously weren't. and they did have the oppertunity if they had given the media the ammo they would have used it.

The public don't elect thier postmen, but they do elect their MPs, and we work for a goverment owened company which is requiered to provide a public service, and they will have a say.

ps. Belial on this site it is the converted preaching to the converted about the need to fight back but lots of staff can't or won't see beyond tommoro.

[BELIAL]

No need to apologise to me whatsoever. Communicating through the written word is very difficult, 90% of all face to face communication is carried out visually rather than through the spoken word.This is a difficult medium and we all bodge it big time from time to time
Still don't think theres anything fatalistic about my view of the media though ,can you think of a time when the massed ranks of the media championed the interests of the ordinary people over those of the elite?
If you can't then I guess my views might be viewed as realistic
I completely agree with the point you make about our leaderships piss poor presentation of the facts,in my opinion if they miss that obvious trick then they are not up to task. However ,in my opinion, if they had been on the ball and not missed the tricks, then it would not have appeared in the media anyhow. Now the bit you can never know is how much the footage was edited for public consumption, anybody seen what you can do with photoshop?
Trouble with govt elections is that they are a very easily swung snapshot. Sometimes they cock it up though Don't think the last Spanish elections panned out as engineered