Full Timers Let Go AT My Office

[POSTMAN]

AM I RIGHT IN THINKING ,THE NUMBER OF EVR,S AND VR,S WILL BE SLASHED ,IF ANYONE THATS BEEN HERE LESS THAN 4 YEARS CAN BE GOT RID OF FOR NOTHING.

Seems that way.

[post_bitch]

will the use this sack method on part timers

[drb]

OK,if you check the "downloads" section and get the MTFS 2009,(Manage The Surples Framework). Go to the temporaray contract section : It says :

Temorary Contracts
Royal Mail & The CWU recognise and agree that there must be a consistent and equitable approach on the employment of all specific event and time contracts.

The key principle covering all aspects of temporary employment are as follows :

Royal Mail Group employees will be employed on substansive contracts except where there is genuine short term need identified.CWU will be consulted in advance where there is any such requirement.
Where such need is identified specific event and time contracts may be issues for more or less then 12 months with the period of the event being a determining factor.Such contracts will not exceed 2 years unless it has been jointly agreed that there are very exceptional circumstances.

The joint commitment will be to reduce temporary contracts by effective resource planning and joint co-operation in securing operational change covered by national agreements to the required timescales.Individual business units/recovery programmes will agree with CWU how they plan to substantiate temporary employess,giving priority to those with more then 2 years service and reviewing progress with the CWU on a regualar basis.

Following the comletion of major change of the major change programmes all remaining temporary contract staff within the resourcing area will be offered substansive contracts where vacancies exist.



Although you may say "well we haven't had major change yet".Well this agreement was updated in 2009,plus the CWU were not consulted. The legality is 4 years but the AGREED document is 2years.

[POSTMAN]

OK,if you check the "downloads" section and get the MTFS 2009,(Manage The Surples Framework). Go to the temporaray contract section : It says :

Temorary Contracts
Royal Mail & The CWU recognise and agree that there must be a consistent and equitable approach on the employment of all specific event and time contracts.

The key principle covering all aspects of temporary employment are as follows :

Royal Mail Group employees will be employed on substansive contracts except where there is genuine short term need identified.CWU will be consulted in advance where there is any such requirement.
Where such need is identified specific event and time contracts may be issues for more or less then 12 months with the period of the event being a determining factor.Such contracts will not exceed 2 years unless it has been jointly agreed that there are very exceptional circumstances.

The joint commitment will be to reduce temporary contracts by effective resource planning and joint co-operation in securing operational change covered by national agreements to the required timescales.Individual business units/recovery programmes will agree with CWU how they plan to substantiate temporary employess,giving priority to those with more then 2 years service and reviewing progress with the CWU on a regualar basis.

Following the comletion of major change of the major change programmes all remaining temporary contract staff within the resourcing area will be offered substansive contracts where vacancies exist.



Although you may say "well we haven't had major change yet".Well this agreement was updated in 2009,plus the CWU were not consulted. The legality is 4 years but the AGREED document is 2years.

So,our guys have a chance?
An agreement is an agreement.

[drb]

We have passed this up.The minute we did they stopped checking the contracts.

[smelly_cat_lady]

I would be very interested to hear from anyone in the know if this is the case. I have been 'temporary' on a fixed term contract for 2 years since Feb 2008. The other 16 in our DO are in the same boat. Could someone please put us out of our misery - preferably before we have a meeting with the DOM next week. I'm thinking that the MTSF agreement is perhaps no longer valid since 2010 and beyond was introduced??

Btw, we're all still waiting for the union to come back to us!

[drb]

No this MTFS still holds the field.Copy and paste it ,print it and pass it to the rep.DO NOT go in on your own.Ask your rep to have the area rep present too.He will pass it to divisional.He also should go down the IR framework ASAP.This means that the "status quo" remains until resolved. The only bit that has changed in regards to the new agreement is the VR terms.

PM me with your area and I will query it for you

[Glenno]

drb a lot of people in our DO received these letters yesterday (thur) looking at what you
have posted re; MTSF agreement, & the revised 2009 bit, can you answer this Q

Q Althou it was jointly agreed that 2 years was the max, before substantive was offered
was it not upscaled to 4 years by the last Labour Govt??????????

This was what I was told when when I bumped it up!!!!

[smelly_cat_lady]

This is the link to the government website page ref Fixed Term employees dated 2002. One answer seems to be 'the law' (to quote Judge Dread) the other is RM agreement. Trying to get clarification on which one applies.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20022034.htm#8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[drb]

Yes it was 4 years from the legal point of view.This was because in case of "no collective agreement with a trade union". However we do have a trade union and it was agreed.

How long can an employer keep on renewing a fixed-term contract?

An employee can be kept on successive fixed-term contracts for a limit of four years. If your contract is renewed after that you become a permanent employee. This is unless the employer can show a good reason why you should stay on a fixed-term contract. Only service from 10 July 2002 is counted towards the four-year limit.

The four-year limit was introduced to prevent employers abusing the use of successive fixed-term contracts to limit employees' employment rights. The limit can be changed by employers and employees agreeing a 'workforce' or 'collective' agreement. This agreement should then provide an alternative scheme for preventing the abuse of fixed-term contracts.

Workplace or collective agreements can vary the limit on the length or number of successive contracts used by an employer. They can also limit the use of successive contracts and set a list of reasons to justify renewals of fixed-term contracts.

[smelly_cat_lady]

drb, I really hope that you are right...however, I can't help thinking that if you are, and RM decide you're not, then what next?

[POSTMAN]

Well the law and an agreement between employer and employee are 2 different things.

For instance off the top off my head sick pay,there is a minimum that has to be paid by law,ours is obviously much better than what the law states we should have.

If we have an agreement (employer and employee)that it's 2 years and contracts have to be made up then that is set in stone until it's renegotiated surely!

[fishtank]

drb, I really hope that you are right...however, I can't help thinking that if you are, and RM decide you're not, then what next?

It doesn't really matter whether he is right or wrong you still need to get your contract changed from fixed term to substantive otherwise you are still at risk.
The agreement does not guarantee you a job only that...

The joint commitment will be to reduce temporary contracts by effective resource planning and joint co-operation in securing operational change covered by national agreements to the required timescales.Individual business units/recovery programmes will agree with CWU how they plan to substantiate temporary employess,giving priority to those with more then 2 years service and reviewing progress with the CWU on a regualar basis.

And to be honest this is probably the most ignored RM/CWU agreement we've had over the past 5 years...otherwise you wouldn't still be on a temporary contract would you?

[drb]

Yes but was the CWU consulted at the beginning of "identified short term"? Was it identified? Someone identified something if we scrutinise the amount of part time replacing full time.By the way exisiting national agreements were ignored due to the dispute,(The Way Forward) in terms of vacancies.

[fishtank]

Yes but was the CWU consulted at the beginning of "identified short term"? Was it identified? Someone identified something if we scrutinise the amount of part time replacing full time.By the way exisiting national agreements were ignored due to the dispute,(The Way Forward) in terms of vacancies.

drb i'm sorry but existing national agreements especially The Way Forward(in terms of vacancies) have been ignored since the introduction of SDD in 2003.
Ask RM for the numbers and length of time for existing fixed term employees....
Stick a poll up on here and find out how many offices have had full-time staff leave to be replaced by part-time.
and No POSTMAN the agreement doesn't state that if you've been here on a fixed term contract fot two years you will automatically get a substantive contract...unfortunately....i've been to divisional and beyond with that one and unlike buzz it doesn't fly.