When back to two in a van ?

[Jefferson Starfish]

As you point out Royal Mail is slowly moving the workforce towards driver only staff. What would your extra payment be for then?

As a recipient of the reserved rights driving allowance of £6 per week, I ask myself that all the time. LOL.

[Blinkboy44]

My rant wasn’t about having to drive, it’s about non drivers getting paid the same and doing less work.

You get paid by the hour not by what you do in those hours. Where would that logic stop? A cleaner does more physical work than you so should be paid a "cleaner" allowance? ?

If non drivers are not utilising their full hours that's up to management to address but the solution would not be to pay you more, the answer would be to pay them for the hours they work or get them to work more hours.

As you point out Royal Mail is slowly moving the workforce towards driver only staff. What would your extra payment be for then?

Wow, just wow.. Your logic is basic. How long you been in this job? Think your brains broken mate.

Firstly, thats like comparing our wage to another company who employ people to do a completely different job, in comparison to one company who pay people differently based on what they do. Yes? Can you process that?

Sounds like Royal Mail has your head perfectly up their ass and your basking in the scent of it, working harder than others and not seeing an issue. Either that or you’ve currently got your HCT tied up somewhere raging your not being chauffeured by the usual chump.


“the solution would not be to pay you more, the answer would be to pay them for the hours they work or get them to work more hours”
- How can one respond to such a ridiculous jargon of shite thrown together in an attempt to word a sentence? Suggesting making someone work longer to match the work of another. You do realise this is a topic based on van sharing, and a response to someone’s opinion of that they don’t want to because they are sick of doing more work, for no extra initiative.

Either your happy being the mug that does extra work for no extra, not only that but actually defends that you should do, on the basis that’s the role you play. Or, you’re the lazy one who does less work for the same pay, and is arguing on that basis. Care to share which one of those you are?

extra pay won’t happen. I know it, and despite what you think I’m not starting a petition to try and get them to, so when / if the penny drops what your debating with me about (if confused please refer to thread topic) maybe you can understand that a substantial difference in work responsibilities should be reflected. Do workplace coaches get paid extra? I’m sure they wouldn’t if they all did it for free right? Or manager? Bet they are on our wage right?

And finally, if we were all drivers, then we would all receive the luxury of a better pay then, in the format of an improved salary. You donkey

[Blinkboy44]

As you point out Royal Mail is slowly moving the workforce towards driver only staff. What would your extra payment be for then?

As a recipient of the reserved rights driving allowance of £6 per week, I ask myself that all the time. LOL.

Spill the beans Jefferson?! Where’s my £6 a week

[Jefferson Starfish]

As you point out Royal Mail is slowly moving the workforce towards driver only staff. What would your extra payment be for then?

As a recipient of the reserved rights driving allowance of £6 per week, I ask myself that all the time. LOL.

Spill the beans Jefferson?! Where’s my £6 a week

You had to be a driver back in 2000 I think it was, part of an agreement at the time.

Those in the position of the old PHG at the time get £20 per week, despite their job no longer existing.

There may be other examples?

[Dexydog]

In non covid times my first loop as a non driver is twice the size of the driver.
In addition it has those houses that always gets the packets.
The driver rams my bag full of mail and packets, and he wanders off the other way carrying a bundle and an odd packet. By the time I'm finished he's sat on his arse having a fag.
Does he ever think to take my packets as my loop is longer? Does he balls.
Van share is the biggest load of bollocks ever dreamt up by a management that don't have a clue.

[Woody Guthrie]

The sick squid as it's known was withdrawn precisely because the business moved to employing staff with driving and couldn't justify a pay differential any more.

I've been a driver for Royal Mail for over 30 years driving everything up to and including the 600s and driving a van is not a skill, it's not harder work.

It's just a different way of doing the same s**t, delivering mail and parcels. If you're working longer than a non driver that's a different issue but you're not working harder. If you follow the driving equals harder work logic surely a rural must be working the hardest as there's more driving so they should get more "driving" money.

If this topic had came up 15 years ago the majority of staff would have said the drivers have it easiest, lazy bastards who throw parcels back at the walkers then drive from house to house while the rest of us trudge round in the rain, sleet and snow with a bag on our backs.

It's funny how times change. Nobody called for a "walking" allowance.

[Dexydog]

So in my example above, who is working the hardest??
My partner might say I have it easiest, sitting in van while he drives between loops, then driving back.
And having the responsibility etc, I totally get that.
The problem with van share, is that it breeds resentment.
Perhaps that was a deliberate ploy on Rm's part at its' inception, but having done it from both sides, it's inefficient, pure and simple.
Plus for the most part, it makes for an unhappy workforce-again, counter productive.

[Blinkboy44]

So in my example above, who is working the hardest??
My partner might say I have it easiest, sitting in van while he drives between loops, then driving back.
And having the responsibility etc, I totally get that.
The problem with van share, is that it breeds resentment.
Perhaps that was a deliberate ploy on Rm's part at its' inception, but having done it from both sides, it's inefficient, pure and simple.
Plus for the most part, it makes for an unhappy workforce-again, counter productive.

Yeah that’s fair enough mate I guess it can go either way from both sides but from someone who is a driver and doesn’t take the piss like that and am happy to offer to take the non drivers parcels if their bags are looking on the larger side. In my office only about 3 duties have loops where drivers loops are shorter, they are normally equal, and luck of the draw which ones an entire streets of multiple serial customers ordering 3 or 6 packets a day, every day. And every single non driver bar 2 take the piss and it’s not there problem, your the driver, oversize and everything else is on you. And yes I entirely agree it also causes this sort of resentment, hence why I’d rather not go back as I’m sick of working with all them who take the piss.

so if I’m going back to that and working with folk who just want an easy ride and won’t help you at all, not thinking you deserve more is crazy. Expecting more is another thing, as I don’t, but what woody who’s clearly got major wood for RM not paying him more for doing more, unless he’s one of them who probs shafts his non driver and does f**k all. But what he doesn’t understand is now post COVID we are essentially doing 2 different jobs being a driver vs non driver. with how parcels are now and it’s only going to get harder for drivers so we should all be in charge of our own s**t and not have others drag us down and let us do all the work. That also benefits non drivers who feel drivers take the piss. Oversize there own packets but not theres. So I stand by saying drivers should be paid more, as we are the ones risking our licences driving these shitters they call vans, (van check I know I know) but even when you try and raise something in a log book it just gets nilled out after a page or so. The non drivers who can drive but won’t. How is that fair?! The rule should have been changed to those that can already drive should have to for Royal Mail. The reason they don’t is because they know it’s extra stress! Someone in my office had someone jump out in front of them so they essentially ran them over, no witnesses, RM don’t supply dash cams. and they tried getting the postie done. More stress. with the way packets have just gone through the roof now and probably won’t change, what happens when the driver has to do 15 / 20 oversize every loop, I’m happy to admit my head turns to cabbage in the morning looking at such a mass of parcels already especially last Christmas. If I’m doing that after every loop and the non driver is not helping, why wouldn’t I expect a better salary for doing more work if the non driver is standing around smoking getting pissy I’ve not gotten round my loop and done my parcels in time for when he’s finished it, or finished his 2nd. Again, more f***ing stress vs someone having an easy ride

[toonshola]

100% agree with all the shared van criticisms above. It beggars belief that the revisions will be planned using shared vans again which means we will be stuck with this way of working for years to come. It’s the most inefficient bullshit this company has ever came up with and that’s saying a lot.
Since COVID I’ve been doing my side of a shared van duty by myself in a van on my own and been getting done quicker with less stress. Pack the van the way I like and mark letters for small packets correctly for my bags(half those I’ve worked with don’t do this)
There’s a reason all those with most seniority always chose single van or trolley duties. Working with others is hell.

[Blinkboy44]

Pack the van the way I like and mark letters for small packets correctly for my bags(half those I’ve worked with don’t do this)
There’s a reason all those with most seniority always chose single van or trolley duties. Working with others is hell.

Yes also great point. As I’m a reserve and work with every f****r in the place, can’t stand when people don’t mark up there parcels clearly or not at all, or claim I haven’t when funillaly I’ve never finished a loop with sometimes 3 parcels still in my bag since not van sharing.. so that would be even more Id have to deliver to my already stupid list of oversize already, not to mention the ones they claimed I didn’t turn for, or they simply ‘forgot’

Or people making bundles with practically boxes and 10 small but thick parcels in each bundle. Practically need 2 hands to hold some of them and I have massive hands! but nope, working your own f***ing way or being in control of what time you finish is clearly too much to ask for

[Blinkboy44]

the business moved to employing staff with driving and couldn't justify a pay difference

I've been a driver for Royal Mail for over 30 years. driving a van is not a skill, it's not harder work.

surely a rural must be working the hardest as there's more driving so they should get more "driving" money.

Again. Your missing the point. Running around like twat to try finish your loop in time to not get Moaned at by a senior worker who will then tell guy who does duty sheet not to put you on that round again because they have to wait on you all the time to do both mine and their oversize parcels, because no one will then want to work with you because they will tell other senior men on good walks your slow and s**t , and then getting put on the worst longest duties in the real rough areas for weeks . so it does add stress, so you can do things by the book, which it all other aspects do, use a trolly where needed, don’t rush, but it’s not all so black or white, there’s many other things factors and pressures other then that you have to consider then simply saying “you start time finish time”

the amount of parcels is stupid in my office and it’s only getting worse, and as the mails picking up again. we can’t do the same for much longer balancing stupid amount of mail and stupid amount of parcels. They haven’t even moved us to transits yet! And the union ain’t doing s**t.

I’m guessing you’ve had it pretty easy with your 30+ service, starting off doing streets as a whole walk for your time as a reserve And being home by 11am latest? You probs been doing a rural round for last 10 years since parcels has gotten bad? Also assume you walk very minimal right? I’ve done rurals, they a piece of piss so don’t even try bullshit that one. Being a reserve now is more hardcore then anyone has ever had it, so it’s a different level to what you’ve experienced.
AND Ironic as well you said doing that deserves a pay rise but challenged me on my comment. you should be paid more for rural driving? f**k off. Doing an entire walk and then sometimes up to 50 tracked oversize on top of that being all your responsibility something and also risking licence on top of that, deserves more pay. It’s only gonna get worse as well..

seriously just give up and f**k off mate It’s a different job now, and things need to change, COVID should be looked at as the changes that have been made should stick.

[DGH]

Being a driver does carry a greater level of responsibility, that's really unarguable - non-drivers don't have to worry about crashing the van, for instance. But that's not all - drivers will tend to do more tracked (because they're doing the bulk and a disproportionate amount of bulk is tracked) and so are more likely to run into issues there.

It's all very well to say 'managers should balance the workload accordingly', but in the real world of RM that simply isn't going to happen.

If given the choice as a reserve to do a driving duty or a non-driving one as part of a van share, I'd choose the latter every single time, and I'd be very surprised - and somewhat sceptical - if many people disagree. And that's even having rather longer loops to compensate for not having to do bulk.

[Blinkboy44]

If given the choice as a reserve to do a driving duty or a non-driving one as part of a van share, I'd choose the latter every single time, and I'd be very surprised - and somewhat sceptical - if many people disagree. And that's even having rather longer loops to compensate for not having to do bulk.

Couldn’t agree more mate, only problem is as there’s so many non drivers in my office it’s rare to get to be the non driver whilst your a reserve, which I have been for 7 years now and it’s mentally destroying me being on a different duty every single day 5 days a week

[Alexei]

So no, I don’t want to share vans again. Hopefully RM will realise the passenger seat is more useful to ram more parcels in rather then a throne for a lazy old fart to roll cigarettes.

I love this comment, I can feel the utter rage and can fully sympathise

To be honest though, reading through your comments it sounds like you have a workload issue. If the driver loops are designed slightly smaller to accomodate for packets, then there's only so many you can do. Similarly, if you have the same sized loops, but the walker has one more loop which is 40mins long to accomodate a packet loop for the driver, you again can only do so much within those 40mins.

Once you go through the oversized and put various smaller ones in loops, you should have a better idea of what you're dealing with and be in a position to then approach a manager and discuss workload and what you will need to leave (assuming you don't want overtime). I don't know how many times I've checked the oversized and it looks like I'll be running over, to then fill empty loops with 'oversized' packets and suddenly there's some excess time. The problem is often working with someone who wants it easy. They would rather keep their tiny bundle and not use a bag, as opposed to carrying a shoebox, meekat, phone SD and a large Moonpig card. My mantra was always 'if it fits, it goes in'. Sometimes you could take those items, other times not.

Similarly, sometimes there would be a discrepency in the workload between loops, so it's down to the individuals to work as a team and communicate, but as you know this obviously is more difficult than you would think. When one doesn't pull their weight (driver or walker) then it just harbours resentment. If it gets to a situation where the manager is being bullish towards you because the other is throwing out packets, then simply mention that to the manager ... 'As you can see from my loops and oversized, I'm at full capacity. It's X's packets I can't deliver'. For a while my partner on an old duty was hiding behind me leaving packets and I was stupidly doing his arguing while he had easy bags because he chucked out all packets into the oversized classification.

Some people really are just ignoramuses though and see it in black and white: 'I don't care if I don't need a bag for this loop and the workload is uneven, that's a driver packet / is your loop' ; 'I don't care if I have no oversized or bag packets, that's a packet that fits in your bag / is your loop'

[Woody Guthrie]

You have some real anger issues mate.

Most of your problems have nothing to do with driving, they're because a) you're a reserve and b) your office is a s**t hole full of tossers.


I'm not on a rural I'm on a van share.
When I was a reserve I was supposed to finish at 12.30 six days a week on a 42 hour contract but there was no sequenced in those days and I would frequently leave the office last about an hour after everyone else, most of the time when I got back the office gates would be locked. There was no job and finish in those days.

At the end of the day the points you're missing are.

A) The driving and responsibility part you knew about when you took the job but now you want more money because you've realised that not everyone drives?

B) You get paid for the hours you work not the work you do.

If you just want to bitch about non drivers fair enough but you were the one asking for more pay and that's just nonsense.