Overtime

number one · Post by **number one** » 03 Oct 2018, 16:10

clashcityrocker wrote:
Navalron wrote:I find it really sad that you went to managers about someone else's hours. As long as you get your hours that you worked/ agreed then that's it. If I had been the gaffer I would have told you to eff off. No wonder the job is f****d. Why don't YOU negotiate hours for docket without grassing.
Firstly we expect fairness in the workplace. We don't expect the bosses' favourites to be given more money for doing the same work.
Sometimes you have to shine a light into the murky corners of RM and let everyone see the s**t that is lurking there.
Sometimes you have to have the conkers to speak truth to those in power.
Favouritism isn't acceptable.

Why should any of us have to negotiate our own overtime rates? What next - negotiating our own attendance procedure or our own conduct code?
Isn't that what we pay our union fees for?
We may not like the overtime rates that our union has negotiated on our behalf but that isn't a reason to go in and undermine them.

No wonder the job is f****d with colleagues who are happy to take it up the arse without complaining.

You just really really don’t get it do you. If somebody isn’t bothered if they do overtime or not and the manager is desperate to get it covered what’s wrong with asking for say 2/3hrs pay yo do it. The manager can take it or leave it as the member of staff isn’t bothered if they do it or not. If they do it and make as much as they can then happy days. Everybody can do it if they grow a pair

crimson king · Post by **crimson king** » 03 Oct 2018, 17:40

I can see both sides here.

I know for example that when I cut off a loop, the person taking it is getting two hours' pay for 40/45 mins of delivery. Management wouldn't get it covered otherwise. That's fair enough, but if the manager said to me, 'hey crimson, if you stay out and do that loop I'll pay you two hours'...well, I'd probably do it.

But why isn't this fairly offered to everyone? Why do so many things in RM have to be shady and closed shop? For a big company with such history and tradition, there's very little transparency at times.

This thread has inspired me to maybe do some negotiating of my own. After I've grown another pair of course.

I dunno ...what with the cutting off blues and overtime negotiations you need balls the size of watermelons to survive this job

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 03 Oct 2018, 17:48

number one wrote: If somebody isn’t bothered if they do overtime or not and the manager is desperate to get it covered what’s wrong with asking for say 2/3hrs pay

1. It is fraudulent. If you fill in a 552 saying you are working until 6pm and you have gone home at 4pm then that is fraud. You can be dismissed for it.
And while you may be labouring under the illusion that the current state of affairs will continue forever, I don't believe it will.

2. You undermine the union.
You shouldn't be allowed to negotiate your own overtime rates in the same way you don't negotiate your own attendance procedure or your own conduct code. We have collective bargaining not individual bargaining.

3. There is also the principle of fairness and equality.

Postie45 · Post by **Postie45** » 03 Oct 2018, 18:01

from my experience, most of the time its the managers offering these "deals" just to get it covered. They know the pool of people who will extend if offered a certain amount of hours usually around twice the amount it takes to actually do. The managers also know they wont get it covered if they offer less, its not about these posties bargaining per se, these posties will basically say no when offered 1 hour for 1 hours work as it isnt worth it to them, theyre happy to go home and only accept the OT if the manager says "ok, i have this work to do, ill give you 2 hours for it" when everyone knows itll just take 1 hour.

number one · Post by **number one** » 03 Oct 2018, 18:27

clashcityrocker wrote:
number one wrote: If somebody isn’t bothered if they do overtime or not and the manager is desperate to get it covered what’s wrong with asking for say 2/3hrs pay
1. It is fraudulent. If you fill in a 552 saying you are working until 6pm and you have gone home at 4pm then that is fraud. You can be dismissed for it.
And while you may be labouring under the illusion that the current state of affairs will continue forever, I don't believe it will.

2. You undermine the union.
You shouldn't be allowed to negotiate your own overtime rates in the same way you don't negotiate your own attendance procedure or your own conduct code. We have collective bargaining not individual bargaining.

3. There is also the principle of fairness and equality.

Everytime you finish before your time are you then guilty of fraud?

This argument about it being fraud is nonsense no matter how many times you say it. The hours paid are usually agreed before the work is done and the option is there for the manager to say yes or no. If somebody says I will do the work for X amount it is NOT fraud. If people think it is lets get the legal system involved and get it to court, lets see the outcome

postslippete · Post by **postslippete** » 03 Oct 2018, 19:26

clashcityrocker wrote:
number one wrote: If somebody isn’t bothered if they do overtime or not and the manager is desperate to get it covered what’s wrong with asking for say 2/3hrs pay
1. It is fraudulent. If you fill in a 552 saying you are working until 6pm and you have gone home at 4pm then that is fraud. You can be dismissed for it.
And while you may be labouring under the illusion that the current state of affairs will continue forever, I don't believe it will.

2. You undermine the union.
You shouldn't be allowed to negotiate your own overtime rates in the same way you don't negotiate your own attendance procedure or your own conduct code. We have collective bargaining not individual bargaining.

3. There is also the principle of fairness and equality.

Whilst I agree with Clash about the ghost overtime. I do find it annoying when I leave a loop that would probably take me 50 minutes to complete and then knowing a manager has negotiated with someone else for them to do it for 1 and half hours. Who is actually guilty of the fraud here? Surely if the postie doesn't really want to do it but has been offered 1 and half hours to take it, the buck should really rest with the manager, should it not? Its OK having a fixed rate for doing overtime but that situation changes when, for example, mail/packet volumes are phenomenally high for that day or if they have been left for a day or so.

As for undermining the CWU, again I agree with you, but we know it happens everyday when staff routinely come in early, rush round and finish early. Managers turn a blind eye to it because the work is getting done - especially when its posties who are taking out someone else's loops who are somehow finishing early. In terms of fairness they can't really stop anyone else leaving early if they allow this. Ironic also how certain posties appear bereft of the old conduct and counselling procedures as well....

postmanzach · Post by **postmanzach** » 03 Oct 2018, 21:10

Clash I get its frustrating but it’s not fraud. If there’s a delivery that on paper takes 6 hours they can afford to pay someone 1 and half hours to do a row, if they get it done in an hour that’s fair play.
It’s not that bad.
We were getting shafted f ing bad in our office not long ago, were we part timers were doing full time rounds but only getting paid for the hours we work so if we finished early we would only get those hours, does hat happen to you? We put at end to that but what I’m saying is, same as been said, it’s swings and roundabouts, you can get done early some days and get paid fully for time you haven’t done. If they were to use pdas like you say and only pay for time you were out there, so much mail would fail.

Im guessing your a bit bitter because of personal circumstances in your office where certain guys are clearing up the OT and your not getting a good deal or something like that- I have been there. It sucks, eventually things will work out. Try transferring to another office if it’s really bad.

trix138 · Post by **trix138** » 03 Oct 2018, 23:38

Overtime in our office is paid as a fixed amount depending on how much you do

1/3 2hrs 10mins
1/2 3hrs 15mins

Most people will try to get this done asap.

So is this fraud?

If I do 1/3 and finish it under the 2hrs 10mins then I don't see that as fraud as its an agreed amount across the office, and I might work faster than other people, and shouldn't be penalized because I do

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 04 Oct 2018, 06:36

trix138 wrote:
If I do 1/3 and finish it under the 2hrs 10mins then I don't see that as fraud as its an agreed amount across the office, and I might work faster than other people, and shouldn't be penalized because I do

Try and see it this way then......
What if we had an annual pay review and the DOM said you were OK as a postman but there had been a couple of late starts and a couple of performance issues so you were getting a 1% pay rise but I had an unblemished record and I was really quick so I was getting 4%.
Performance related pay is how a lot of businesses operate.
Would you be happy if we introduced performance related pay and the bosses favourites were continually paid more?
We don't have performance related pay (guess why?) so the fact you work faster means diddly squat.

I am not bitter. If I wanted to be a selfish bellend I could.
It is a choice.
I am also concerned that a lot of you can't see what is coming.

Driver74 · Post by **Driver74** » 04 Oct 2018, 09:24

Anyone who has worked at rm for any length of time has finished early whether it duty or overtime there will always be days that are easier or harder than others so if you can get your job done and get finished early make the most of it just don’t let it bother you what someone else is doing if somebody likes to work fast and get done good luck to them but never go complaining to managers about anyone else

number one · Post by **number one** » 04 Oct 2018, 09:42

Clashcityrocker you keep swerving the question so I will ask again.

If YOU finish YOUR duty early are YOU guilty of fraud. Using your logic you would be?

leolion855 · Post by **leolion855** » 04 Oct 2018, 10:21

number one wrote:Clashcityrocker you keep swerving the question so I will ask again.

If YOU finish YOUR duty early are YOU guilty of fraud. Using your logic you would be?

or if you you finish your round early do you go and ask a manager for some extra lapsing?, I also know if people finish early they have a 'fraudulent' extra long break so they get back 'just in time'.

Roll on the clock card system so all this disappears..

number one · Post by **number one** » 04 Oct 2018, 10:26

leolion855 wrote:
number one wrote:Clashcityrocker you keep swerving the question so I will ask again.

If YOU finish YOUR duty early are YOU guilty of fraud. Using your logic you would be?

or if you you finish your round early do you go and ask a manager for some extra lapsing?, I also know if people finish early they have a 'fraudulent' extra long break so they get back 'just in time'.

Roll on the clock card system so all this disappears..

How will clocking on and off stop it? It won’t. People have been talking about clocking in/out machines for over 20 years as if it’s some answer to stop people doing overtime

clashcityrocker · Post by **clashcityrocker** » 04 Oct 2018, 15:06

number one wrote:Clashcityrocker you keep swerving the question so I will ask again.

I am not swerving the question.
I simply don't want to engage with you because I think you are an idiot.

number one · Post by **number one** » 04 Oct 2018, 15:45

clashcityrocker wrote:
number one wrote:Clashcityrocker you keep swerving the question so I will ask again.

I am not swerving the question.
I simply don't want to engage with you because I think you are an idiot.

I think you’ve answered it then. You think it isn’t fraud for you but it is if anybody else does it. You’re laughable.