DINGO, BIG DAZ,?

[lovejoy]

Roger Poole was quoted as saying these are the toughest negotiations he had ever been involved in and he was part of the NI peace process!!!

Bloody hell the CWU are desperate now. Getting £8 a week for RM for unlimited D2D's was harder than negotiating a cease fire with the IRA.

The money is for a supplement not d2ds........has anyone bothered to read the agreement?

Yes lovejoy they have bothered to read the agreement and where the D2D payment has stopped and been replaced by an inferior product I think they have every right to:

a. Complain they are losing money
b. Equate the new payment - which is pro rata by the way - to the old payment for D2D - not doing them yourself you probably don't quite understand the nuance

But the new payment isn't for d2d though is it Dvbuk but then again when have you let the facts get in the way of backing up your point!

[dvbuk55]

Roger Poole was quoted as saying these are the toughest negotiations he had ever been involved in and he was part of the NI peace process!!!

Bloody hell the CWU are desperate now. Getting £8 a week for RM for unlimited D2D's was harder than negotiating a cease fire with the IRA.

The money is for a supplement not d2ds........has anyone bothered to read the agreement?

Yes lovejoy they have bothered to read the agreement and where the D2D payment has stopped and been replaced by an inferior product I think they have every right to:

a. Complain they are losing money
b. Equate the new payment - which is pro rata by the way - to the old payment for D2D - not doing them yourself you probably don't quite understand the nuance

But the new payment isn't for d2d though is it Dvbuk but then again when have you let the facts get in the way of backing up your point!

Must you keep repeating yourself lovejoy - it does you no credit and doesn't make your statement any more real.

I didn't say it was for D2D lovejoy but then when I read some of your answers I wonder if:

a. You've actually read the post and
b. Actually read the agreement

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Roger Poole was quoted as saying these are the toughest negotiations he had ever been involved in and he was part of the NI peace process!!!

Bloody hell the CWU are desperate now. Getting £8 a week for RM for unlimited D2D's was harder than negotiating a cease fire with the IRA.

The money is for a supplement not d2ds........has anyone bothered to read the agreement?

Yes and whoever wrote the agreement is too blame especially the one that came up with this wording on page 21

To coincide with the introduction of the national agreement unit payments will cease and the 3 items per week cap will be removed. D2D Monies will be turned into a delivery supplement paid 52 weeks a year for all delivery employees (OPG and ORR) pro rata for part time employees.

The small section I underlined is the part that has caused the confusion and probably the reaction as well.

[gb93]

Good post Teebs i was thinking same thing myself but did not have agreement to hand to give exact wording

Awaiting lovejoys answer to your post it will be interesting to see how he digs out

But i am sure he will come up with a very credible answer.

Oh sorry cant resist, Lovejoy have you read the agreement

[lovejoy]

Good post Teebs i was thinking same thing myself but did not have agreement to hand to give exact wording

Awaiting lovejoys answer to your post it will be interesting to see how he digs out

But i am sure he will come up with a very credible answer.

Oh sorry cant resist, Lovejoy have you read the agreement

You'll have to get up earlier than that to put one over me my friend

The agreement states that the d2d monies will not be put into the supplement. This means that the 51.4m that was paid out last yr in d2ds has been captured by the cwu and put into a new supplement. It does not mean that the supplement continues to be paid for d2ds. D2ds are now paid for in time / measured workload - just like any other mail item.

[gb93]

I have just realised who lovejoy really is.

Alastair Campbell

[lovejoy]

I have just realised who lovejoy really is.

Alastair Campbell

Thats me

[Martin Walsh]

DINGO, BIG DAZ why did the CWU not put the 20.60 into my 40 hours instead of paying separate? What i am really saying if they put the 20.60 into my 40 hours it means in years to come they can not take that away like they are doing with the ESA now. In my opinion this 20.60 is a short term thing and will be taken off us in 3 years am I right?

There are a couple of reasons why the £20.60 has not been incorporated into basic pensionable pay.

1. That the payment if you look on page 67 of the agreement titled pay simplification states that the permanent (non pensionable ) supplement to basic pay. So it will be part of your overall pay for ever. In the past we had upap ( unconsolidated permanent addition to pay ) which went into pensionable pay under the way forward. The reason why it is not in pensionable pay is that this would damage the pension deficit further and make it more costly for Royal Mail. remember the money comes £52 million from D2D and £40 million from ESA. If you then wanted Royal Mail to pay pension cost on that sum then the sum would have been less than £20.60. Those who have the ESA will still have that in pensionable pay.

2. The second reason is that if deliveries had the £20.60 in basic pensionable pay then they would be on higher basic pay than distribution , mail centre staff who only recieve £8 as in pay simplification and £11 in RDCs.

Of course the union wants to consoldidate the monies into basic pensionable pay eventually but hopefully by then the pension deficit would have been fixed.

Now with regards to the Early shift allowance and grandfather rights , well pay and mod stated that the early shift allowance would be used under pay simplification and only if that was not right would it be retained for grandfather rights. It was never intended to be an allowance left for grandfather rights.

Now someone also asked why not use the old driving allowance and the ex phg allowances well there is not much money in both of them payments now left in delivery offices ( there is in mail centres ) and that is one of the reasons it was important not to wait too long and let the payments decrease in the ESA as it did in the other allowances. As Bob Gibson rightly states when you suffer a leak you do not wait till it becomes a flood to stop the leak.

[dvbuk55]

You know - I can't work out if I am stupid or not intelligent enough to understand that the £20.60 is not new money, it is the money from ESA and formerly D2D money incorporated into a single payment and given to everyone in delivery regardless of their function and former entitlement.

So people who formerly had £12.60 ESA a week and no D2Ds gets an £8 pay rise, someone who formerly had £12.60 ESA and 3 lots of D2D @ 1.67p per item x say 400 which is £20 so then you add the two together and it comes out at £32.60 so they get a pay cut of £12 a week.

Right I think I've got it now - we use our money to finance a new pay structure that basically gives us a pay cut, but wait that is only for full timers - for part timers it's even worse because they lose even more because it is pro rata - in an office with 40% part timers it will certainly cause a little friction wouldn't you think?

Still - hey its a winners and losers world and if you're a loser wear a big L on your forehead

[fishtank]

loser.jpg

Flame-You-Lose-I_win.jpg

[Glenno]

It dosnt matter which way you dress it up, every one will look at this firstly , how it affects them ,
how it affects their unit , & how it affects every-one else, although this is a Very contentious issue
it is Not the only issue..
The D2D saga will roll on for a very long time (winners&loosers) we will all have to read into that
what we will, i could argue this point for-ever

The work method is very little discussed- What are the 9 different ways of working?
The IWT, Pegasus Geo-Route is still to be agreed (no chance b4 the ballott timetable)
and before anyone says this is not in this agreement let me say there are two Documents
The Agreement & The Business Plan one we Vote on & one we dont , but what is in one Document
affects the other

I am only just starting to realise the Full implications of this Agreement is every-one else??

[fishtank]

I am only just starting to realise the Full implications of this Agreement is every-one else??

Damm frightening isn't it?

[gb93]

On this forum maybe Glenno.

But out in the offices i very much doubt it.

[dvbuk55]

It dosnt matter which way you dress it up, every one will look at this firstly , how it affects them ,
how it affects their unit , & how it affects every-one else, although this is a Very contentious issue
it is Not the only issue..
The D2D saga will roll on for a very long time (winners&loosers) we will all have to read into that
what we will, i could argue this point for-ever

The work method is very little discussed- What are the 9 different ways of working?
The IWT, Pegasus Geo-Route is still to be agreed (no chance b4 the ballott timetable)
and before anyone says this is not in this agreement let me say there are two Documents
The Agreement & The Business Plan one we Vote on & one we dont , but what is in one Document
affects the other

I am only just starting to realise the Full implications of this Agreement is every-one else??

You make a very good point - apart from the obvious reasons particularly for deliveries, there is the unspoken unagreed portions of the future structure of Royal Mail.
I am deeply concerned about the new relationship between RM and the CWU who seem to be just advocates of whatever is thrown at us.

[creedscat]

DINGO, BIG DAZ why did the CWU not put the 20.60 into my 40 hours instead of paying separate? What i am really saying if they put the 20.60 into my 40 hours it means in years to come they can not take that away like they are doing with the ESA now. In my opinion this 20.60 is a short term thing and will be taken off us in 3 years am I right?

Trying to get my head round the fact Why the Protected ESA has been lumped in with D2D??
Could it be that if the ESA was consolidated into basic pay (as it is pensionable, for those that recieve it)
it would mean that D2D would be a stand alone Supplement of £8odd
Try and sell that to the Members eh!

That's exactly what they are trying to do - it's all smoke and mirrors glenno - but really the money aspect is only a very small part of the duplicity of this agreement.

See thats comical because in a post a few minutes ago you accused the NE of lying to influence the vote.

The supplement does not include the shift allowance so make it look more attractive for D2D. They 20.60 is shift allowance + monies currently being paid on D2D. The CWU have managed to make RM pay twice for the same thing.

Whilst the D2D money has been captured it has now been put into a supplement and is NOT A PAYMENT FOR DOING D2D..... IT IS A DELIVERY WORKER SUPPLEMENT.

The payment for d2d is exactly the same as any other mail item now........ time and basic pay

So what your saying is were delivering shite for f**k all??? Make your mind up as i thought it was a D2D supplement inc ESA.