I agree with all of RM's proposals bar 1

[fishtank]

The most worrying thing is that people cant see it.

Don't be so arrogant, most people can see the potential downsides of any strike action. Most of us have been here before but most of us understand that when you're facing danger rolling up in a ball and pleading for mercy isn't going to help. If Royal Mail want to screw up our contracts and shaft us they don't need a strike to do it, they could do it tomorrow. What do you think stops them doing it? Weakness?

[UrbanPirate]

Spedley, What's changed?

The cost of living?
Having to save more for retirement due to a poorer pension?
Increased childcare costs due to changes in the pipeline?
Reduction in potential working life due to increased outdoor workload?
Reduced overtime opportunities due to annualised hours.
Potentially more punitive sick absence policy.

There are plenty of reasons why making a job more demanding both physically and financially should result in higher pay. It's a capitalist supply/ demand thing. Would many people do the delivery job for minimum wage and what kind of staff would you attract.

One of the reasons Wistl couldn't make the end to end game work was the extremely high turnover of staff and associated training and security vetting costs.

But we still are paid well for what we do and the pay offer is fairly reasonable. Where else will pay us this well for a non skilled job. Its a tough job for sure but we are all totally replaceable fairly easily.

Look, I want higher pay, I will always want higher pay but we also have to get real.

The cost of living varies from region to region. Pay doesn't. The cost of living where I live is considerably higher than other parts of the country. Still get paid the same.

Having to save more for retirement due to a poorer pension? The union already capitulated to this in 2008 when they divided the pensions.

Increased childcare costs due to changes in the pipeline? Thats true but most of the country do 9-5 and manage. Many on lower pay then we are currently on as well.

Reduction in potential working life due to increased outdoor workload? Purely speculative.

Reduced overtime opportunities due to annualised hours. I have never relied on finances from OT as OT is never guaranteed. That is financial naivety. RM do not owe anyone OT.

Potentially more punitive sick absence policy. Already taken off the table.

[UrbanPirate]

The most worrying thing is that people cant see it.

Don't be so arrogant, most people can see the potential downsides of any strike action. Most of us have been here before but most of us understand that when you're facing danger rolling up in a ball and pleading for mercy isn't going to help. If Royal Mail want to screw up our contracts and shaft us they don't need a strike to do it, they could do it tomorrow. What do you think stops them doing it? Weakness?

I will be so arrogant thanks as I have seen nothing but naivety. People dont seem to know what a "win" will even look like. I will ask it again, but what will a compromise look like? What do you expect to Gain and lose?

[tpost]

The most worrying thing is that people cant see it.

Don't be so arrogant, most people can see the potential downsides of any strike action. Most of us have been here before but most of us understand that when you're facing danger rolling up in a ball and pleading for mercy isn't going to help. If Royal Mail want to screw up our contracts and shaft us they don't need a strike to do it, they could do it tomorrow. What do you think stops them doing it? Weakness?

Once strike action happens all previous agreements can be ripped up, if this happens then you will see major changes quickly. Make no mistake the job will change and I am just pointing out that if we strike or not RM will get some or most of what they want.

[glfp]

A prolonged strike is in no ones interest especially royal mails leading up to xmas , it will be a big yes vote which our union needs to resolve these issues .

You do realise a big yes vote doesn't mean we have won anything. That will just be the start of it. It will then become who is willing to blink first. RM management know that people cant afford to keep it up. I think allot of people have severely overstated the unions and our hand in this.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I believe a yes vote is playing into their hands; just as a No vote would too.

So many posts on this board and facebook use the word victory and Yes vote in the same sentence.

I'd be surprised if in less than a years time the break up of royal mail hasn't begun.

[glfp]

Just seen this thread. Haha! :)

No more comments now please, let it drift to the end of the pile.

Yes lets all just carry on with this rhetoric that Victory will come our way with a massive Yes vote - Royal Mail will buckle.

In Terry We Trust.

We are one We are the Union (only when it suits).

Cliche, cliche Ad Nauseum.

Remember its a forum - we don't anyone with different opinions than ours do we???

ATB
Graham

[UrbanPirate]

A prolonged strike is in no ones interest especially royal mails leading up to xmas , it will be a big yes vote which our union needs to resolve these issues .

You do realise a big yes vote doesn't mean we have won anything. That will just be the start of it. It will then become who is willing to blink first. RM management know that people cant afford to keep it up. I think allot of people have severely overstated the unions and our hand in this.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I believe a yes vote is playing into their hands; just as a No vote would too.

So many posts on this board and facebook use the word victory and Yes vote in the same sentence.

I'd be surprised if in less than a years time the break up of royal mail hasn't begun.

This is what worries me. That we are playing into their hands. I think they want us to strike so like said above they can potentially say we have reneged on previous agreements thus, so will they. I think we need to be realistic with the changes and quite frankly accept some of the less unsavoury ones. I believe the only thing we shouldn't agree on is the separation of T&Cs. Everything else is quite frankly acceptable.

The whole yes vote is a victory is a fallacy. I really hope the union know this and have some other strategy that we arnt privy to. Unfortunately i don't think they do.

If not, like you say, RM could move to split the company apart claiming not to be profitable any longer. The world has changed. We need to change with it.

[glfp]

The union seem to think that a big yes vote will put pressure on the RM board and they will compromise, however most of the largest institutional investors take a long term view so if a dispute lasts 3-4 weeks but at the end of it RM can make big savings they will tough it out. I think that a protracted dispute will hit a lot of staff, especially part timers who make up their money by overtime and you will have a drift back to work. It is easy to shout strike and all out on social media but we must remember that in the end there will be a compromise on the issues in dispute. The public will have little sympathy for us once the right wing press start mobilising.I am not being negative but realistic of what could happen.

One institution / investment fund bought 12.5 million pounds worth of shares yesterday !
Think they know something this board doesn't.

[tpost]

The union seem to think that a big yes vote will put pressure on the RM board and they will compromise, however most of the largest institutional investors take a long term view so if a dispute lasts 3-4 weeks but at the end of it RM can make big savings they will tough it out. I think that a protracted dispute will hit a lot of staff, especially part timers who make up their money by overtime and you will have a drift back to work. It is easy to shout strike and all out on social media but we must remember that in the end there will be a compromise on the issues in dispute. The public will have little sympathy for us once the right wing press start mobilising.I am not being negative but realistic of what could happen.

One institution / investment fund bought 12.5 million pounds worth of shares yesterday !
Think they know something this board doesn't.

Yes there is money to be made

[UnhappyGremlin]

Anything RM has taken off the table is only a temporary measure.
It will resurface again in the future. Always does.

And 2.75% pay rise over 2 Years is pathetic. Should be minimum 7% and that is still likely to be below inflation for the 2 years combined.
And the lump sum now is pointless.
They only want that to screw the pensions again.

[phillpk1]

well lets respond to this constructivley
1:pay increase -have to agree with you :would love to have more but when others are getting 1% or less despite rising inflation of 2.5% or more in some cases i think its reasonable in todays world and the best that can be realistically expected

2 :pensions - i have worked for RM for nearly30 years and have 15 left before i reach 65 so am not really in a position to be able to finance a plan which would mitigate RM's proposals which would result in a 17% reduction of my pension.When i started postman retired at 60 and had a final salary scheme which was just enough to live on till i got to 65 when the state pension kicked in .All of this has changed and as i said to a young postie today it will change again so make provisions for it while you can cos when i ws 23 we had no idea of what the future was to bring and i wish i had.I would agree that the the Unions scheme is no better so a comprimise betweenthe2 schemes will have to be reached but if i have to contribute more then so be it -today i can increase my wage with OT when i retire i will have a fixed income with little opportunity to increase it

3: legacy payments -you have it totally wrong as all legacy payments are a fraction of what was given up for the greater good. I used to be a PHG and after the way forward agreement saw my colleagues get a huge pay rise while i got nothing as all posties were brought in line with the then current PHG wage. I had to remain in my PHG roll with all the responsilities for 2 years to keep my legacy payment . Even now we regarded as how PHG's used to be and to act as such even though officially the post doesnt exist .A lot was given up by a small group of workers and they are still treated as if the WAY FORWARD never happened in terms of what they are asked to do .Remember one thing your wage /meal relief /holiday entitlement came from that agreemnent and it was only made possible cos a lot of sacrifices / comprimises were made

4 :pipeline changes - for the last 25 years i have worked till 1830 so these changes mean little to me . However i have done deliveries and did so when we were out of the door at 0700 in the morning and during winter whilst it was dark it was not easy especially as I was a reserve so was on a different round every week .Its bad enough doing collections in the dark never mind walking up paths of houses where you cant see the items they hve left on the path that wasnt there the day before.I understand that RM must change with the times but altering the entire duty structure for 10000's just for a few parcels (which in reality is what it is at the moment though over time i admit this will change )is not the answer . I had this conversation with of a colleague of mine today
28 years ago we had no automation -everything was manual and according to RM there was a lot more mail -we went out of the door at 0700 and no mail was left in the office -the pipeline was much more extensive and though admittedly not efficient mail centres were clear
28 years later automation is so extensive we have machines to sequence our mail and sort flats -we go out of the door at 0930 and mail is left cos there wasnt enough time to sort it or we are cutting off -and according to RM we have less mail-
the pipe line has been streamlined
Yet RM is saying it needs more time to get the mail to us so we need to go out later -the reality is RM has cut the workforce so much to enhance its profits that the old tried /tested and successful system no longer works and we have to change to bring it back to pre privatisation levels .RM is saying it doesnt want a twice over the ground so how is it going to convince firms that delivering their mail after 1200 is a more efficient service when they used to get it before 1200 -they are probably right about the general public as to what time they get their mail is of little relevance to them but to over turn a whole delivery system just for a few packets and incur the wrath of businses just doesnt make sense .
ALSO there is the question of special deliveries -how does RM intend to fulfil this flagship product with this new delivery system .Over the last 20 years RM and its work force has worked very hard to get this product to the successful level it is today and can honestly boast that it is the best value and most reliable next day service on the market .The reality is a twice over the ground is going to be essential if RM wants later deliveries and maintain its key products and keep the businesess happy - If their is a demand for later packet deliveries then bring in dedicated duties to fulfil them

New entrants - the truth is they are offered different T&CS and of late adverts i have seen for new staff have said 0600-1800 duty times and unfortunately it will only get worse .

Part timers - you never mentioned this but this is one section of the workforce that has been badly treated both by the union and RM and this has to change . Asking part timers to do fulltime rounds and not give them the same monatary rewards with regard to DDs , holiday pay ,lump sum awards at Xmas is simply unjust and should be treated as a priority

Walk ownership -definately a no no and is tantamount to slave labour at worst and an attempt to get round fully paying postman for the hours they worked at best .Annual leave is a legal right and sick leave is sometimes unavoidable but to forced to absorb these duties would bring unsustainable pressure on the rest of the team especially if last letter on their round becomes 1700 and then having to complete a partial delivery after - a 35 hour week would be meaning less

35 hour week -is not really important to me and would involve doing same amount of work in less time as i cant see RM reducing duty content to accommodate this.In fact it has openly said we would have to be more productive which in RM ( AND XFACTOR )speak is us giving 110% over a 7 hour day which is just not possible or desirable

So this is why I have voted yes and will be supporting a strike - i hope it wont come to that but past history tells me otherwise .If RM wants the changes then it will have to compromise and pay for it -it needs to understand that the only way forward is to convince its staff and sending us the same doom and gloom message via mail and PDA is not the way to do it

[banner]

I agree with all RM's proposals bar 1.

I think the pay increase is reasonable considering the current economic climate.
I think the DC scheme is reasonable (And so do the union as they were/are quite happy to see anyone after 2008 on it)
I think that historical payments should be stopped. You have an office where one guy to the next could be doing the exact same job but one of them is being paid more for what really is no good reason anymore.
I think changes in the pipeline will have to happen if we want to stay competitive in this industry. Our big customers want to be able to offer next day delivery on orders placed as late as possible. Wether the customer is there to collect it is here nor there. Doesn't matter to them. They want it dispatched asap.
Working 9-5 is not the end of the world. Most of the UK workforce works this way and they haven't collapsed from exhaustion, turned to dust or into gremlins any second past 3pm.
The world changes and so must we. Thats life.

The one thing I cant abide by though is new entrants being offered different T&C's. They divided the workforce back in 2008 with the pensions and low and behold they are coming for your pension now. It's fairly obvious if they divide the workforce this way now then down the road they will come for you.

Discuss.

These points are reasonable when taken in a certain context.
The pay rise is okay in the general climate but it is appalling for a company that has shed tens of thousands of jobs, got its staff to adapt to all the changes, modernisation and privatisation and helped to return it to year on year profitability, providing massive dividends to its shareholders as well as massive salary increases and gold plated pensions for its directors.
I don't like the comparisons that are used between Royal Mail employees in delivery and other delivery operations. Nobody, and I mean no other set of employees do what we do or anything resembling it. No yodel, dhl employee walks 10+ miles in all weathers delivering to many hundreds of properties a day.

The pension issue is similar. The general climate has many on worse pensions than the one proposed by Royal Mail but a pension which is little more than a cash savings scheme for a massive company in the ftse 100 is a poor show. I totally agree about the workforce being divided in 2008 and it was a grave error to allow this.

I believe the legacy payments and pipeline issues can be resolved with dialogue. I strongly agree with the business side of the argument and I also strongly agree with the human side of the argument. It's not just a simple argument about doing a certain set of hours, it is about the impact on people when you significantly change these hours, the fact that they have built their lives around Royal mails current business model.

[koolishy67]

Pay offer is reasonable, I don't mind to work 9-5 and I start after 2008 so pension want effect me not getting extra allowances. I Am VOTEING Yes yes yes yes yes yes

[UrbanPirate]

well lets respond to this constructivley
1:pay increase -have to agree with you :would love to have more but when others are getting 1% or less despite rising inflation of 2.5% or more in some cases i think its reasonable in todays world and the best that can be realistically expected

2 :pensions - i have worked for RM for nearly30 years and have 15 left before i reach 65 so am not really in a position to be able to finance a plan which would mitigate RM's proposals which would result in a 17% reduction of my pension.When i started postman retired at 60 and had a final salary scheme which was just enough to live on till i got to 65 when the state pension kicked in .All of this has changed and as i said to a young postie today it will change again so make provisions for it while you can cos when i ws 23 we had no idea of what the future was to bring and i wish i had.I would agree that the the Unions scheme is no better so a comprimise betweenthe2 schemes will have to be reached but if i have to contribute more then so be it -today i can increase my wage with OT when i retire i will have a fixed income with little opportunity to increase it

3: legacy payments -you have it totally wrong as all legacy payments are a fraction of what was given up for the greater good. I used to be a PHG and after the way forward agreement saw my colleagues get a huge pay rise while i got nothing as all posties were brought in line with the then current PHG wage. I had to remain in my PHG roll with all the responsilities for 2 years to keep my legacy payment . Even now we regarded as how PHG's used to be and to act as such even though officially the post doesnt exist .A lot was given up by a small group of workers and they are still treated as if the WAY FORWARD never happened in terms of what they are asked to do .Remember one thing your wage /meal relief /holiday entitlement came from that agreemnent and it was only made possible cos a lot of sacrifices / comprimises were made

4 :pipeline changes - for the last 25 years i have worked till 1830 so these changes mean little to me . However i have done deliveries and did so when we were out of the door at 0700 in the morning and during winter whilst it was dark it was not easy especially as I was a reserve so was on a different round every week .Its bad enough doing collections in the dark never mind walking up paths of houses where you cant see the items they hve left on the path that wasnt there the day before.I understand that RM must change with the times but altering the entire duty structure for 10000's just for a few parcels (which in reality is what it is at the moment though over time i admit this will change )is not the answer . I had this conversation with of a colleague of mine today
28 years ago we had no automation -everything was manual and according to RM there was a lot more mail -we went out of the door at 0700 and no mail was left in the office -the pipeline was much more extensive and though admittedly not efficient mail centres were clear
28 years later automation is so extensive we have machines to sequence our mail and sort flats -we go out of the door at 0930 and mail is left cos there wasnt enough time to sort it or we are cutting off -and according to RM we have less mail-
the pipe line has been streamlined
Yet RM is saying it needs more time to get the mail to us so we need to go out later -the reality is RM has cut the workforce so much to enhance its profits that the old tried /tested and successful system no longer works and we have to change to bring it back to pre privatisation levels .RM is saying it doesnt want a twice over the ground so how is it going to convince firms that delivering their mail after 1200 is a more efficient service when they used to get it before 1200 -they are probably right about the general public as to what time they get their mail is of little relevance to them but to over turn a whole delivery system just for a few packets and incur the wrath of businses just doesnt make sense .
ALSO there is the question of special deliveries -how does RM intend to fulfil this flagship product with this new delivery system .Over the last 20 years RM and its work force has worked very hard to get this product to the successful level it is today and can honestly boast that it is the best value and most reliable next day service on the market .The reality is a twice over the ground is going to be essential if RM wants later deliveries and maintain its key products and keep the businesess happy - If their is a demand for later packet deliveries then bring in dedicated duties to fulfil them

New entrants - the truth is they are offered different T&CS and of late adverts i have seen for new staff have said 0600-1800 duty times and unfortunately it will only get worse .

Part timers - you never mentioned this but this is one section of the workforce that has been badly treated both by the union and RM and this has to change . Asking part timers to do fulltime rounds and not give them the same monatary rewards with regard to DDs , holiday pay ,lump sum awards at Xmas is simply unjust and should be treated as a priority

Walk ownership -definately a no no and is tantamount to slave labour at worst and an attempt to get round fully paying postman for the hours they worked at best .Annual leave is a legal right and sick leave is sometimes unavoidable but to forced to absorb these duties would bring unsustainable pressure on the rest of the team especially if last letter on their round becomes 1700 and then having to complete a partial delivery after - a 35 hour week would be meaning less

35 hour week -is not really important to me and would involve doing same amount of work in less time as i cant see RM reducing duty content to accommodate this.In fact it has openly said we would have to be more productive which in RM ( AND XFACTOR )speak is us giving 110% over a 7 hour day which is just not possible or desirable

So this is why I have voted yes and will be supporting a strike - i hope it wont come to that but past history tells me otherwise .If RM wants the changes then it will have to compromise and pay for it -it needs to understand that the only way forward is to convince its staff and sending us the same doom and gloom message via mail and PDA is not the way to do it

An actual constructive response! I never thought I would see the day. My problem being though is all I read/hear is nostalgia for the past. (It used to be this way in the past so why isnt it now). Unfortunately its not the pasts, the industry is much more competitive, we are private now, we have to wake up to this realisation that we need to change with the world.

I get that the changes are unpopular but I really don't think they are bad enough to tear the company apart.

To the man that expects a 7% pay rise. You should become a comedian.

[iHateD2Ds]

Royal Mail has a good ,honest and loyal workforce but this will sadly diminish if Royal Mail keeps hacking at our terms, benefits and conditions.

The pension should have been sorted out in 2008 when we was still publicly owned.
Not sure how a 35 hour working week will work when we can not complete our deliveries with 39hrs week

A YES vote is needed for more bargaining power