CWU BT 2010 State of play

[jessicarabbit]

I'm scared dingo but only because you sound like my manager who keeps telling me I won't get paid in March unless I lapse more deliveries

[AnnexeB]

So if colleague share is dead in the water , than the CWU should be looking to get more money and benefits.

Now I dont say this to scare people but some people do need a realitiy check. Unless Royal Mail get European State Aid by next March than Royal Mail could go into administration as the pension fund deficit demands another 300 million pound payment next April and guess what Royal Mail do not have it.

Now the Union is talking to Royal Mail about incentives including increasing the christmas bonus , other fringe benefits but the reality of the situation is it highly doubtful that Royal Mail will increase any benefits until they know what is happening with regards to the European State Aid.

Yet i assume all bonuses for managers will be paid ??????

[fishtank]

Now Fish I am not from CWU HQs , I am a representaive below CWU HQs and therefore what I can say , is yes by all means blame CWU HQs for certain things and that is fair enough , but why have so many revisons been introduce with agreement and have been disasters and have increased bullying. I would expect to have seen a lot more unofficial action or requests from offices from ballots.

I do not buy the mantra that people feel let down and angry by the union but will stand by and not do anything when Royal Mail are bullying them due to failed revisons and excessive lasping .

I know who and what you are dingo.
You say that you do not buy the mantra that people feel let down and angry by the union but will stand by and not do anything when Royal Mail are bullying them due to failed revisons and excessive lapsing...but they are...in greater and greater numbers.
If they weren't...there wouldn't be a CWU BT 2010 State of play document in the first place...would there?
Do you think it's all lies and scare stories....still?

I think it's time for a reality check.
The membership as a whole have very little confidence in this union dingo and what little they have left is disappearing fast.
There are pockets where that isn't the case but that's all they are now...little islands of resistance in a sea of apathy,distrust and anger.
You can keep denying or you can use your influence to perhaps provoke a change of direction...it's your game not mine but there are some indisputable facts amongst this.

As you say....
Many revisions have been a disaster...we know that as fact.
There have been very few calls for industrial action or even disagreements...we know that as fact.
Why?....you tell us if it isn't apathy.

[Martin Walsh]

Jessica I presume you like someone to tell you what you want to hear , well the good union officials tell you the truth about what the business is facing and then try and get the best they can for the members.

it's very easy for others to sit on the sidelines saying that this is crap and this is what should be done. However they do so in the knowledge that they are will not be the one who has to achieve that policy and can if they choose snip at the lack of progress.

Just because I say that the what we are all facing is without doubt the biggest challenge and threat we have ever faced and if you believe that makes me a manager well enjoy that thought.

As a very senior manager informed the union this week that on one hand you have the union , staff and some operation managers saying that these delivery method revisions are not working , that quAlity is not going well and that staff are disillusioned with the revisions process to the point some are working slower than they were before the revision cause there is nothing in it for them. Then on the other hand you have the board who say that they have spent millions on walk sequencing , CDVs , Handheld devices etc and have not seen any return on those investments.

The sooner Royal Mail understand that there delivery best praticise revision process does not work the better for everyone.

[music4essex]

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[*]

"The sooner Royal Mail understand that there delivery best praticise revision process does not work the better for everyone."

In the meantime the poor folks being bullied and harrassed over unrealistic walk and ips targets just have to carry on or leave under the stress of it all,

If you had been in my meeting yesterday you would have layghed at what spew he was coming out with , but it still does not help when you are sitting there being threatend to be moved out of the office for just doing the job properly in the time allocated or not enough time in my case

Do you now what it is like when you have to get up each morning and you are called into the office most days and everyone is wondering why, In all the 22 yrs on RM I have no felt so bad.

you cannot communicate with a dom like I have who is a snidy lying twisted b******tard

Towie mum

[Viewfindergeneral]

"

[*]

"The sooner Royal Mail understand that there delivery best praticise revision process does not work the better for everyone."

In the meantime the poor folks being bullied and harrassed over unrealistic walk and ips targets just have to carry on or leave under the stress of it all,

If you had been in my meeting yesterday you would have layghed at what spew he was coming out with , but it still does not help when you are sitting there being threatend to be moved out of the office for just doing the job properly in the time allocated or not enough time in my case

Do you now what it is like when you have to get up each morning and you are called into the office most days and everyone is wondering why, In all the 22 yrs on RM I have no felt so bad.



you cannot communicate with a dom like I have who is a snidy lying twisted b******tard

Towie mum

I have full sympathy for you because I know exactly how you feel as I'm in a similar situation to you. When you are faced with a manager who is a total a******* and will not listen to your reasonable arguments which you know are 100% right you feel like either killing him or leaving your job. When this is combined with the union rep and higher who tell you they will get it sorted then do nothing it is no surprise that you feel this way. I honestly wonder how long it will be before a disgruntled employee can't take any more s*** and either kills themselves or their manager. I am not joking. It is only a matter of time. From reading the accounts of bullying and harrassment from management from people on this forum this is a nationwide situation and I honestly believe that if nothing is done by the union on a national scale to stop this institutionalised bully then somebody is going to crack and we will have a murder or suicide on our hands.

This is deadly serious. If nothing is done then this will happen.

[Martin Walsh]

Fish I fully understand that members feel let down by the union. let's face it the last two agreements have seen more changes in delivery than for decades.

Royal Mail' decision to adopt the mantra of working all the hours you are paid in 2007 meant for the first time people did not come and do their own deliveries and than finish. They had to do absorption. Now that is hugely unpopular. However what was the union meant to say ? Were they meant to say we want to increase pay and improve attendances but we also want members to finish early. Of course the union cannot if they wish to be taken seriously argue for better wages and people still finishing early so they got a framework for absorption which some are using and some are not. Hence this is mentioned in Bob Gibson's summary.

Now in terms of the BTA agreement , this was concluded against the background that Royal Mail were introducing delivery best praticise revisions. The CWU got a six step process which has meant the only a quarter of revisions have been introduced based on delivery methods in the whole of the UK. Now the ones which have been introduced some have worked after changes , some have collapsed completely and have been changes , whilst some are costing more now than they were. Why the change is too big and in my opinion the tools do not work.

Now a mate of mine went a delivery meeting in Scotland last Wednesday to speak to the reps , and at first some reps did argue that they should be allowed to accept the £400 which management were offering due to the fact that the r were not going in. However the vast majority accepted that if they did this it was the road to nowhere

Look no one is saying the union is popular at the moment especailly at CWU HQs but I have never known when CWU Hwas popular. They were hated when they done away with IWM and it caused infighting on a scale not seen before, when they introduced. SFMB hardly popular as it introduced part time duties , Employee Agenda Johnson and co were hardly popular , PBS was hatted, the way forward was despised, moving from 2 deliveries to one not liked but most accepted the money on offer.

So change is never liked , CDVs have been rolled out to a quarter of offices , why are some of those offices not getting together collectively to protect managers from bullying staff? People like ms Essex needs to be protected by the whole office and the branch not left on her own !

It is so easy to say well we fed up with the CWU but guess what we going to accept bullying by managers and not do anything to stop because we are pissed off with the CWU . No I don't buy it , lots of members were pissed of with the way forward and CWU HQs but guess what we did not introduce any revisions and we certainly did not allow bullying. Plus guess what people under the way forward pay restructuring lost more than the just door to door payments !

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Incentive schemes

1. Are they a reward for doing the job that you are meant to be doing anyway.
2. Or are they a tool used by Managers to increase pressure "not to cut off".
3. Or are they a tool used by senior management, on people who don't think beyond that next wage slip, to introduce unpalatable or unworkable changes.
4. Or are they a way of letting the Union show they have gained something somewhere in discussions.

I would say a mixture of all and I frankly despair that after years of false promises, "Share in success", "Colleague-shares" to name 2, the Union is still actively pursuing this.

I don't want a bonus scheme that's outside my control like "Colleague-shares", or one that just as its about to be paid the goalposts are moved "Share in Success".

If we are going to have a bonus lets make it cast iron, achievable, and more importantly one that an ordinary postie can effect otherwise it will end up demoralising members, ruining the Unions reputation further and it will lead to a further lowering of trust between all parties.


Incentive schemes are a mugs game. Increase basic bay that's better than having some nebulous bonus that has more strings than a planet sized harp.

[fishtank]

The problem isn't a failure to accept change dingo.
The membership have had to accept more change in the last 5 years than in the 20 before that.
The problem now is that sections of the membership and some reps have started accepting change no matter what form it takes and no matter who is driving it because quite frankly..they can't see any difference.
We've blurred the lines...CWU/RM/Rep/Manager/Planner with nonsense about new relationships and involvement.
You still can't understand how so many offices accepted revisions that would obviously fail can you?
Well...you could start with those who had the most information before them....those who definitely should have known it would fail......those who,i assume recommended that the members accept it.

[ronpetetrevchris]

i absolutely knew our revision wasnt ready and despite huge pressure froim everybody i still remained stubborn and refused to sign it off, so when i was sick the area rep came down and signed it for me, true!

[ronpetetrevchris]

Now im completely on the back foot trying to throw up all these arguments at PIR stage, they know what im going to do so guess what, nobody from their side will commit to a PIR date, funny that!!

[dvbuk55]

Well I don't really want to get involved in this argument because in truth it doesn't affect me in the slightest.

However the gall of some to say that it is the memberships fault is quite frankly an affront to any right thinking member.

Here we are 18 months on after many many revisions overseen by reps who have been bamboozled by the figures, geo route and IWT without any ammunition whatsoever to combat the half truths that have been told, to find that they have failed. In their hearts those tasked with implementing these changes knew that they would fail but having seen the involvement of the union and the previous road show to sell it assumed that all changes were agreed.

In the first flush of P&L in which my office was involved we were told YES go ahead it is based on the Durham principle - only for the Union to renege on the instruction 6 months later - and here we are 18 months in to BT 2010 for the union to publish what you should be doing - well like last time the horse has bolted and the stable door is STILL open but talks continue.

I can only conjecture that if talking was results we'd be on a 10 hour day and a £1000 a week.

[Danelectro]

Now I dont say this to scare people but some people do need a realitiy check. Unless Royal Mail get European State Aid by next March than Royal Mail could go into administration as the pension fund deficit demands another 300 million pound payment next April and guess what Royal Mail do not have it.

And fully implementing BT2010 is gonna turn the above situation around? It doesn't give Royal mail the savings it wants and thats with the majority of revisions being implemented without the full 'benefits' to members.The only thing thats gonna stop the s**t hitting the fan is the government stepping in and removing us from the rigged market we have been forced to operate in which if you remember was introduced by a Labour government partly funded by our own union on the advice from HQ that this would win us concessions but instead gave us Peter Mandelson.....So incentives? if there is no money for colleague shares then how is it possible to find money for incentives when as you point out there is no money to pay the pension deficit unless Royal mail get European State Aid.

[fishtank]

We don't want incentives.
Incentives mean savings targets and savings inevitably lead to job losses.
Why would the Union think we want job losses?
We've paid for the colleagueshare money in jobs...why would we pay again?
Just to be told at the end of it that we didn't quite make the required numbers.
Completely out of touch.

[Martin Walsh]

The membership have voted time and time again for such incentives including in the BTA agreement. If you look at the threads on this site who says where is their revison money.

Colleague share is dead , not the unions thought , as we never agreed it in the first place it was a con from leighton and crozier.

Now it is true until the European state aid issue has been resolved Royal Mail are not going to invest much more into wages over and above what is budgeted for in the new business plan 3.5 per cent.

However if EU state aid is granted than Royal Mail suddenly has more money especailly if they get what they want from the escow account.

Now some have called for the christmas bonus to be increased well that was discussed along with several other things. Funny thing is the Christmas bonus came from a previous incentive scheme call IWM. So if we did not want incentive schemes we would not have bonus.

Now I have no idea if talks are taking place on more money for giving up jobs but we all know that only in Scotland last week an EC member had to go up to Glasgow because management were offering a lump sum of £400 outside of the BTA agreement due to revison being delayed and some reps and members were attracted to it. Now to their credit they have held the line.

So lets not kid ourselves that reps and members are not attracted to incentive schemes , you probably dont remember IWM , delivery remuneration where for every hour you gave up you got a 50% share of the savings many an office still has that bonnus paid monthlyeven now. Equally lets not kid ourselves that jobs are not going to reduce with or without an incentive scheme they have been reducing for years.