The View From The Shop Floor

[dvbuk55]

As for the self determining work load and organisation here is a little snippet from the agreement:

"Both parties are fully committed to all elements of this national agreement and neither will sanction any local negotiations which seek to change the principles or spirit of this agreement and/or make their deployment less effective and/or delay implementation."

I can't be absolutely sure but to me it looks like don't try to buck the trend because you have no support from the CWU.

And that's exactly how it reads to me, dvbuk.
Still, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, as they say. Nevertheless, my gut instinct tells me we're all in for huge bouts of indigestion during the course of the next three years.

TBH DH - I can't see this going for 3 years - the vast majority of change is in delivery offices and no one knows what the revision tools are, what the enabled delivery span will be, how many D2D we will get and how many of those will be day specific. There are a great many imponderables not least of all how many of the phase 4 changes are going to be implemented like banked hours, flexibility et al. Are they going to put more man hours in just in case the workload mushrooms or are they going to wait until your knees are creaking and your stones are bangin' on the kerb?

If we don't like the written agreement I don't think we are going to like the real mccoy any better.

[DirtyHarry]

TBH DH - I can't see this going for 3 years - the vast majority of change is in delivery offices and no one knows what the revision tools are, what the enabled delivery span will be, how many D2D we will get and how many of those will be day specific. There are a great many imponderables not least of all how many of the phase 4 changes are going to be implemented like banked hours, flexibility et al. Are they going to put more man hours in just in case the workload mushrooms or are they going to wait until your knees are creaking and your stones are bangin' on the kerb?

If we don't like the written agreement I don't think we are going to like the real mccoy any better.

True enough, dvbuk. What an utter shambles to set before us.

[headscrewedon]

its not too late for NO and a regeneration of CWU

Unless Billy Hayes can do a 'Dr Who' type regeneration and re-emerge as Bob Crow, a Yes vote nationally will mark The End Of Time for my CWU membership, and that of many others, I suspect

[bexhil palace]

Anyone on here that was present at the meeting in London a few weeks ago.will have witnessed the most contemptable remark from a CWU official
i have ever heard.When Bob Gibson was told by a rep from the Portsmouth area that her members were dissalutioned with the agreement,and were seriously
contemplating resigning from the union,Bobs considered reply was,well if they leave where are they going to go?
What sort of people have we THE UNION you and me got representing us? It's like an old boys club, dodgy handshakes and even dodgier deals.
The executive seem to have lost touch with their members,and their concerns and wishes.If this the attitude of the executive to it's members,then a radical change is needed,and the only way to change things at the top is not by jumping ship.and leaving the union,that will only serve to weaken us nationaly and locally.No the way forward is to stand together and let the powers that be know that if they cannot empithise with their members,then we will promote people who can.

[bexhil palace]

Anyone on here that was present at the meeting in London a few weeks ago.will have witnessed the most contemptable remark from a CWU official
i have ever heard.When Bob Gibson was told by a rep from the Portsmouth area that her members were dissalutioned with the agreement,and were seriously
contemplating resigning from the union,Bobs considered reply was,well if they leave where are they going to go?
What sort of people have we THE UNION you and me got representing us? It's like an old boys club, dodgy handshakes and even dodgier deals.
The executive seem to have lost touch with their members,and their concerns and wishes.If this the attitude of the executive to it's members,then a radical change is needed,and the only way to change things at the top is not by jumping ship.and leaving the union,that will only serve to weaken us nationaly and locally.No the way forward is to stand together and let the powers that be know that if they cannot empithise with their members,then we will promote people who can.

Oh yes almost forgot Bob also said some of Roy Mayall's veiws were the rantings of a madman,WTF

[dvbuk55]

No really bexhill - well that does surprise me a union official offering contempt to those who put them in power fight for their position and pay for it - wow

[DirtyHarry]

Anyone on here that was present at the meeting in London a few weeks ago.will have witnessed the most contemptable remark from a CWU official
i have ever heard.When Bob Gibson was told by a rep from the Portsmouth area that her members were dissalutioned with the agreement,and were seriously
contemplating resigning from the union,Bobs considered reply was,well if they leave where are they going to go?
What sort of people have we THE UNION you and me got representing us? It's like an old boys club, dodgy handshakes and even dodgier deals.
The executive seem to have lost touch with their members,and their concerns and wishes.If this the attitude of the executive to it's members,then a radical change is needed,and the only way to change things at the top is not by jumping ship.and leaving the union,that will only serve to weaken us nationaly and locally.No the way forward is to stand together and let the powers that be know that if they cannot empithise with their members,then we will promote people who can.

Oh yes almost forgot Bob also said some of Roy Mayall's veiws were the rantings of a madman,WTF

I'm in favour of going straight for the jugular. A mass exodus will starve this corrupt, sterile, complacent union, of much needed funds.
I've a feeling that only immediate hard-hitting action like that, will have Boob and his chums considering where the feck they went wrong, and not much else.

[smudger83]

I'm in favour of going straight for the jugular. A mass exodus will starve this corrupt, sterile, complacent union, of much needed funds.
I've a feeling that only immediate hard-hitting action like that, will have Boob and his chums considering where the feck they went wrong, and not much else.[/quote]

what is the point of a mass exodus, how will this make our pay and conditions any better ?
this is the deal we got AFTER NEGOTIATING, what kind of job would we have if there were no union and the employer just did what suited them
employment without a union is very scary indeed

[dvbuk55]

I'm in favour of going straight for the jugular. A mass exodus will starve this corrupt, sterile, complacent union, of much needed funds.
I've a feeling that only immediate hard-hitting action like that, will have Boob and his chums considering where the feck they went wrong, and not much else.

what is the point of a mass exodus, how will this make our pay and conditions any better ?
this is the deal we got AFTER NEGOTIATING, what kind of job would we have if there were no union and the employer just did what suited them
employment without a union is very scary indeed[/quote]

Yes we are finding that out with every agreement reached in the last five years!

[DirtyHarry]

what is the point of a mass exodus, how will this make our pay and conditions any better ?
this is the deal we got AFTER NEGOTIATING, what kind of job would we have if there were no union and the employer just did what suited them
employment without a union is very scary indeed

Sorry to be the first to break the news, smudge old chap, but we're in a job that has been steadily getting worse over the last decade because our employer does whatever suits them, and with the blessing of the CWU to boot !
Crikey, if you compared the job now, to how it was in 1999, surely even you can see the massive decline in our working conditions?
To be honest, I don't think it's worth £156, mate. This "2010 and Beyond" nonsense, is no good for postal workers, it won't improve conditions for postal workers, it just puts the chase for ever-increasing profits before the health and well-being of postal workers, which is why I have made my decision to leave the CWU in the event this abysmal deal gets voted in by the hard-up.

[smudger83]

well thats great we all leave the union and have no representation and the employer can do whatever they wish
looking forward to the minimum wage and 48 hours basic per week-NOT

Blimey, where have you been these last 10 years, smudger? Royal Mail have turned our jobs upside down, inside out, and left us 60,000 people short, and with "2010 and Beyond" about to be unleashed on the long-suffering workforce, it's gonna get worse, and it's all with the blessing of the CWU.
We may be screwed at a slower rate than we would without the CWU, but the end game is the same, we're getting screwed.

i have had countless changes in my 30yrs harry, my job now bears no resemblance to the one i started with,however i am still content to be employed and still making a decent wage (not the best, but a great deal better than a lot of folks i know of , and read in the press. the 60,000 that left all went voluntarily and happily, with a good wedge of bread, NO ONE was forced out the door
i am happy to stay at rm and go along with the changes (i will probably get abuse now for saying i am content to work at rm)

ok harry we all leave union- no protection what so ever - the union does a lot more for us than just representation at work,-check out the other benefits they provide,they help in loads of other areas too
i would rather be employed by a company that works along side the union , and vice versa ,than have no job and have no union at all -it works in other companies - and it works well
i dont believe we are being screwed- but securing our futures-we have to see the bigger picture, we have to change and modernise to survive-and yes i agree entirely that it is tough and not very palatable for some , however if royal mail doesnt succeed, and this does worry me - we wont need a union anyway

[dvbuk55]

Ah yes - that famous line once again - we must all see the bigger picture.

I'm afraid I don't have that panoramic view shared by so many visionaries. To me the bigger picture always seems to be just too far away for me to make out the fine detail or to build into it those outside circumstances beyond the control of the painter.

Such as? Well a world wide recession, a change of government, a pension fund in massive deficit, fuel prices in freefall, new CEO not yet appointed.

Nope - just too big a picture for me - I try to concentrate on the little picture like the increased workloads, the pay cut, later week end working, no set delivery span, CDVs, loss of jobs, unseen revision tools - that's it for me I'm afraid.

[eian687]

Ah yes - that famous line once again - we must all see the bigger picture.

I'm afraid I don't have that panoramic view shared by so many visionaries. To me the bigger picture always seems to be just too far away for me to make out the fine detail or to build into it those outside circumstances beyond the control of the painter.

Such as? Well a world wide recession, a change of government, a pension fund in massive deficit, fuel prices in freefall, new CEO not yet appointed.

Nope - just too big a picture for me - I try to concentrate on the little picture like the increased workloads, the pay cut, later week end working, no set delivery span, CDVs, loss of jobs, unseen revision tools - that's it for me I'm afraid.

well said

[smudger83]

Ah yes - that famous line once again - we must all see the bigger picture.

I'm afraid I don't have that panoramic view shared by so many visionaries. To me the bigger picture always seems to be just too far away for me to make out the fine detail or to build into it those outside circumstances beyond the control of the painter.

Such as? Well a world wide recession, a change of government, a pension fund in massive deficit, fuel prices in freefall, new CEO not yet appointed.

Nope - just too big a picture for me - I try to concentrate on the little picture like the increased workloads, the pay cut, later week end working, no set delivery span, CDVs, loss of jobs, unseen revision tools - that's it for me I'm afraid.

cant work out your logic dvbuk - world wide recession, a change in government and fuel prices in freefall, we have the opportunity of a 3yr pay rise despite the things you mention,
surely a company should give no pay rise or a pay cut, less hours or less days employment in these conditions,
(oh, i apologise, other companies have already done this to thousands and thousands of other poor workers !!!!!!!)
if this deal is voted in, the company will be much stronger and able to face and find a positive solution to the pension crisis
i will now give you my thoughts on the second part of your post:
you can not be forced to work more hours than you are paid for in your contract- therefore the increased workloads, no delivery span and unseen revision tools are covered in this
it is a pay rise for a lot of employees- and a very good one at that, in todays climate- you will now be paid twice for d2d instead of once
cdvs- a company vehicle for the job instead of using and wrecking your own family car at your own cost, this alone has to be a big pay rise to some posties
companies and employees that cant see or plan past the end of their noses, and are averse to change meet dire financial ends- history is full of broken massive named business's that couldnt or wouldnt change
i personally hope this never happens to rm , it is a massive employer, and legendary public service, what would everyone do if it were no more ?
i for one would be stuffed- the job market isnt too rosy at the moment,
i need,and wish to work for rm for many many years to come

it isnt too hard to see a bigger picture if you think it through logically

[dvbuk55]

Ah yes - that famous line once again - we must all see the bigger picture.

I'm afraid I don't have that panoramic view shared by so many visionaries. To me the bigger picture always seems to be just too far away for me to make out the fine detail or to build into it those outside circumstances beyond the control of the painter.

Such as? Well a world wide recession, a change of government, a pension fund in massive deficit, fuel prices in freefall, new CEO not yet appointed.

Nope - just too big a picture for me - I try to concentrate on the little picture like the increased workloads, the pay cut, later week end working, no set delivery span, CDVs, loss of jobs, unseen revision tools - that's it for me I'm afraid.

cant work out your logic dvbuk - world wide recession, a change in government and fuel prices in freefall, we have the opportunity of a 3yr pay rise despite the things you mention,
surely a company should give no pay rise or a pay cut, less hours or less days employment in these conditions,
(oh, i apologise, other companies have already done this to thousands and thousands of other poor workers !!!!!!!)
if this deal is voted in, the company will be much stronger and able to face and find a positive solution to the pension crisis
i will now give you my thoughts on the second part of your post:
you can not be forced to work more hours than you are paid for in your contract- therefore the increased workloads, no delivery span and unseen revision tools are covered in this
it is a pay rise for a lot of employees- and a very good one at that, in todays climate- you will now be paid twice for d2d instead of once
cdvs- a company vehicle for the job instead of using and wrecking your own family car at your own cost, this alone has to be a big pay rise to some posties
companies and employees that cant see or plan past the end of their noses, and are averse to change meet dire financial ends- history is full of broken massive named business's that couldnt or wouldnt change
i personally hope this never happens to rm , it is a massive employer, and legendary public service, what would everyone do if it were no more ?
i for one would be stuffed- the job market isnt too rosy at the moment,
i need,and wish to work for rm for many many years to come

it isnt too hard to see a bigger picture if you think it through logically

I wondered what the big picture is that only some can see - and now I understand - it is a pay rise for SOME employees - must be the ones who see the big picture because for delivery staff it is a pay cut even by CWUs own admission - we are now in 2010 and according to dingo we will have a higher rate of pay in 2013 - well that's not long to wait if you say it quick but I'm not quite with you on being paid twice for D2D - you won't actually be paid once for them let alone twice - have you misread the agreement?

Smudger I'm sorry I don't see the panoramic view that you do but if the recession needs to be paid for and there is a new government and they can sell RM for lets say 2.5 Billion next year or in 2012 - what price the agreement? The minute pay rises which will bring parity by 2013 won't actually mean diddley squat when VAT is increased to 20%.