Update to members following injunction decision

[daveyeff]

You were being asked to strike because:
1, our pensions are under attack
2, no payrise after record profits
3, later pipeline will cause major job losses
4, owning workload, means no more overtime paid.
5, bullying and harassment in many offices.
and many more unresolved issues.

I do not agree with that list!

1. My pension is not under attack
2. There is a pay rise
3. RM do not lay people off - they have not done so. Let folks move into delivery or take VR - we cannot stop change. And why should employer automatically pay or encourage overtime. Resource management, it is called.
4. We do not know what owning workload means but if it means working for the hours you are paid - then what is the problem? As for OT - it is better to employ more people than same old same people getting OT. A lot of people now hate the job so why do they want OT?
5. Bullying and Harassment - it depends on posties and office. Moreover, there are procedures in place and CWU could do more to encourage people to do job properly, encourage equal and fairer workload and go after bullies - either in management or amongst posties.
If we all look out for each other especially newer and more vulnerable staff, we can reduce bullying

maybe dingo's post..''the issues why you voted yes are still the same'' might change your views. I doubt it though. RM have a habit of deluding gullible people.

[banner]

Its okay. Some people always sit back whilst others fight for things. It amazes me that some people are so gullible that they think the world today just appeared. That workers' rights just sprung out of thin air. That businesses just evolved into giving generous terms and conditions to their work forces. That market forces alone will take care of everything.
We saw what market forces alone did for workers back in the 19th century. No-one is buying the hard right rhetoric neither is anyone advocating communist style economics.
It's about being realistic and getting the best outcome for everyone, RM, its shareholders, its employees and the customers. Sometimes that involves a tussle and no-one should ever feel guilty for standing up for themselves.

[HarryPoorer]

RM are simply too dear for parcels now, they are the luxury brand in the market, that's why they are losing sales, then when you give watch&win a lead they do their best to poo poo it.
All the extra money they make now goes into the managers and them upwards pay rises and bonuses.
It's about time we , the hardest department , the deliverers and customer facers, got a better deal for keeping the company afloat.
Obviously they can't cope without us yet give us more work for the same pay.

[NWpostie]

I wonder the people who support Royal Mail's position are secretly management masquerading as posties.

[UrbanPirate]

I wonder the people who support Royal Mail's position are secretly management masquerading as posties.

*face palm*

[fishtank]

1. Everyone's pension is under attack, I've seen our pension reduced about 4 times now and every time another chunk is taken away for some daft reason people think that will be the last, it won't. If we let them they'll reduce our pensions to the bare minimum across the board, DC scheme included.

2. There is no pay rise on offer, just a lump sum that would only become a pay rise if certain conditions are met, conditions that RM don't have a cat in hell's chance of even coming close to.

3. The only reason RM don't use compulsory redundancy is because we as a union won't let them, we have an agreement to no compulsory redundancy in every deal, we don't have a deal or any guarantees beyond next year. The scale of change proposed is huge, the redundancies will be large scale, you do the maths.

4. Owning the workload doesn't mean working the hours you're paid, they already have an agreement to do that (p&m 2007 ), they just don't enforce it. What they want from owning the workload is sick absence cover, annualised hours and total flexibility on daily contracted hours. You go to work in the morning and have no idea what time you'll be finished, it will depend on the workload and who couldn't be arsed coming into work that day.

5. Bullying and harassment hasn't even started yet, see point 4 but your position is typically selfish and typically short sighted, you'll probably grow out of it.

The changes coming and the implications on delivery staff will turn your little world upside down Chris, you just don't realise it yet but at the end of the day the union isn't in a position to accept a deal because there isn't even a deal on the table, just a series of proposals that may or may not form part of any future deal.

[loyalsnail]

1. Everyone's pension is under attack, I've seen our pension reduced about 4 times now and every time another chunk is taken away for some daft reason people think that will be the last, it won't. If we let them they'll reduce our pensions to the bare minimum across the board, DC scheme included.

2. There is no pay rise on offer, just a lump sum that would only become a pay rise if certain conditions are met, conditions that RM don't have a cat in hell's chance of even coming close to.

3. The only reason RM don't use compulsory redundancy is because we as a union won't let them, we have an agreement to no compulsory redundancy in every deal, we don't have a deal or any guarantees beyond next year. The scale of change proposed is huge, the redundancies will be large scale, you do the maths.

4. Owning the workload doesn't mean working the hours you're paid, they already have an agreement to do that (p&m 2007 ), they just don't enforce it. What they want from owning the workload is sick absence cover, annualised hours and total flexibility on daily contracted hours. You go to work in the morning and have no idea what time you'll be finished, it will depend on the workload and who couldn't be arsed coming into work that day.

5. Bullying and harassment hasn't even started yet, see point 4 but your position is typically selfish and typically short sighted, you'll probably grow out of it.

The changes coming and the implications on delivery staff will turn your little world upside down Chris, you just don't realise it yet but at the end of the day the union isn't in a position to accept a deal because there isn't even a deal on the table, just a series of proposals that may or may not form part of any future deal.

If there's no deal on the table how do people know the deal is going to be so bad? Isn't the point of negotiations that both parties go in with their ideal scenario and come out with a compromise that neither party is particularly happy with but that both can live with? That's the part we haven't got to yet.

[fishtank]

There's no offer on the table that comprehensively deals with the changes Royal Mail wants to implement or any guarantees they are willing to give us there are only outline proposals on a pension that no one has seen the details of, a lump sum offer that doesn't detail what strings are attached, pipeline changes that seem to change every week and something woolly called walk ownership that no one really understands but we know we don't like the sound of.

If you think the union should accept that position I have some "guaranteed" moon rock to sell you.

[cloherty1976]

There's no offer on the table that comprehensively deals with the changes Royal Mail wants to implement or any guarantees they are willing to give us there are only outline proposals on a pension that no one has seen the details of, a lump sum offer that doesn't detail what strings are attached, pipeline changes that seem to change every week and something woolly called walk ownership that no one really understands but we know we don't like the sound of.

If you think the union should accept that position I have some "guaranteed" moon rock to sell you.

If they sign that deal and don’t understand the implications after they signed previous deals that they thought they did understand we are all doomed. You have to read between the lines and not just the front pages. Things have changed since the days of banging your fists on the table and having a talk to a few hundred people. It’s all legal and above board but you have to be one step ahead. At the moment they are 3 steps back. If you look at some of the other unions they strike but they prepare. Look at the tubes workers and what they earn. Remember the olympics they thought about it.

[NWpostie]

I wonder the people who support Royal Mail's position are secretly management masquerading as posties.

*face palm*

Sorry to say Urbanpirate, your comment does look like against a strike, along one other poster in the thread, so it does make me wonder.............

[loyalsnail]

I think if someone personally sat down with me for a month and told me every intimate detail of the pension I still wouldn't understand it. All I know is a company pension is the very best way to save for retirement, I put 6% in and RM 17.1% at the minute, giving me around £2.85 investment on every £1 I stick in (and my £1 only costs me 80p due to not paying tax on it). The new proposal is 13.6% (I think?) so £2.27 investment for every £1 (80p). Short of sticking it all on red/black I can't see anything that comes even close and I'd be happy with it (of course if an increased % is negotiated all the better). That said you have to diversify and stick money away elsewhere, I've been doing that since I got a job and will continue to do so, when my mortgage is paid off the mortgage payments will be going the same way, invested for my future. The pension change is a set back but that's all it is (to coin a phrase from the Union), someone who has many years left to retirement will be hit hardest but also has many more years to secure their financial security into their golden years, those with few years to go won't be as badly affected.

A lump sum is a cheap way of (hopefully) appeasing the masses, it doesn't get consolidated into basic pay so no pension contributions are paid against it, no bonus, just one tax and NI hit... £200 consolidated would be less costly to the business in the first year than a £250 lump sum... I can understand why the business offer it and I can understand why the CWU reject it. I can understand why pay would be a sticking point, though I maintain that as a business Royal Mail pay very well as it is.

I have no opinion on pipeline and walk ownership as I know bugger all about those elements of the offer.

My issues with this dispute (I can be seen as pro Royal Mail) is the way the CWU are approaching it, whipping up a frenzy with incendiary wording rather than coming at it from an intelligent angle. It demeans the workforce, as if we're not intelligent enough to understand the nuances, maybe we're not but why not give it a try? I assume behind closed doors there is intelligent negotiation going on, meanwhile we get Postman Pat and chickens. Reminds me of something you might have seen on The Day Today.

[geordieboy123]

1. Everyone's pension is under attack, I've seen our pension reduced about 4 times now and every time another chunk is taken away for some daft reason people think that will be the last, it won't. If we let them they'll reduce our pensions to the bare minimum across the board, DC scheme included.

2. There is no pay rise on offer, just a lump sum that would only become a pay rise if certain conditions are met, conditions that RM don't have a cat in hell's chance of even coming close to.

3. The only reason RM don't use compulsory redundancy is because we as a union won't let them, we have an agreement to no compulsory redundancy in every deal, we don't have a deal or any guarantees beyond next year. The scale of change proposed is huge, the redundancies will be large scale, you do the maths.

4. Owning the workload doesn't mean working the hours you're paid, they already have an agreement to do that (p&m 2007 ), they just don't enforce it. What they want from owning the workload is sick absence cover, annualised hours and total flexibility on daily contracted hours. You go to work in the morning and have no idea what time you'll be finished, it will depend on the workload and who couldn't be arsed coming into work that day.

5. Bullying and harassment hasn't even started yet, see point 4 but your position is typically selfish and typically short sighted, you'll probably grow out of it.

The changes coming and the implications on delivery staff will turn your little world upside down Chris, you just don't realise it yet but at the end of the day the union isn't in a position to accept a deal because there isn't even a deal on the table, just a series of proposals that may or may not form part of any future deal.

Is there an official document on walk ownership?

[daveyeff]

see ralph ferrets video on it. it describes it exactly as it is....a lump of shite. anyone who thinks otherwise is ...well. hazard a guess.

[geordieboy123]

see ralph ferrets video on it. it describes it exactly as it is....a lump of shite. anyone who thinks otherwise is ...well. hazard a guess.

I don't recall it being in the company's original proposals, is there a link anywhere?

[daveyeff]

search ralph ferret. the video ''route ownership'' is in there. sorry don't think its a link. but the video will open your eyes to their crap. obviously the management sheep and deluded union 'anti-christ's' will reject it. but its a pre-cursor to their plans for us. if you can't find it mebbies teebs will guide you to it.