Returning to office to sign out at end of shift

IcanthelpthewayIam · Post by **IcanthelpthewayIam** » 17 Apr 2016, 11:04

korky wrote:
zx135 wrote:There is no requirement to return to office to sign out, health and saftey or otherwise, in fact it's actually specifically mentioned in the Way Forward Agreement that when part of a break is taken at the end of the shift there is no requirement to return to the office for the sole purpose of signing out at the end of shift
how does it work when those who must come back and are early are made to work until time, be it to take failed mail out or just tidy up when those who go straight home after last letter are sat with their feet up enjoying a cuppa?

simple if they are not on a break they need to stay if dom wants if they are on part of break that takes them upto finish time they can leave

IcanthelpthewayIam · Post by **IcanthelpthewayIam** » 17 Apr 2016, 11:16

midvillain wrote:
zx135 wrote:There is no requirement to return to office to sign out, health and saftey or otherwise, in fact it's actually specifically mentioned in the Way Forward Agreement that when part of a break is taken at the end of the shift there is no requirement to return to the office for the sole purpose of signing out at the end of shift
That's actually great news to me. Can you direct me to the specific part of the agreement? In particular, I can't see how people can be forced to come back to the office in a situation where it will take them into their own time.

meal breaks section, here's the bit you need:

Breaks at the beginning or end of attendance

Where an attendance is provided with more than one break, the second break may be scheduled at the beginning or end, in which case attendance is not required solely for booking on or off. A single break should not be scheduled at the beginning or end of the attendance

midvillain · Post by **midvillain** » 17 Apr 2016, 11:32

zx135 wrote:
midvillain wrote:
zx135 wrote:There is no requirement to return to office to sign out, health and saftey or otherwise, in fact it's actually specifically mentioned in the Way Forward Agreement that when part of a break is taken at the end of the shift there is no requirement to return to the office for the sole purpose of signing out at the end of shift
That's actually great news to me. Can you direct me to the specific part of the agreement? In particular, I can't see how people can be forced to come back to the office in a situation where it will take them into their own time.
meal breaks section, here's the bit you need:

Breaks at the beginning or end of attendance

Where an attendance is provided with more than one break, the second break may be scheduled at the beginning or end, in which case attendance is not required solely for booking on or off. A single break should not be scheduled at the beginning or end of the attendance

Thanks, that's most helpful. Now I can argue the case with the area and h&s reps!

ptopgusedandabused · Post by **ptopgusedandabused** » 17 Apr 2016, 11:55

Acca Dacca wrote:Most drivers our side are considerate to the passengers who can't drive and would have to walk for ages or get numerous buses to get home from the office, and so let them finish on the street ( if closer to their home than the office is ).

The way it should be. Who wants to walk home soaked to the skin after being out four or five hours pounding the pavement?

I certainly appreciate my driver who, while he maybe works an extra 10 minutes putting parcels and pda back etc, saves me almost an hour by letting me finish in street.

10 minutes? Do you finish at your office? And what about the drivers who then have to spend an hour getting home from the depot in the pouring rain after finishing later? Whoever thought CDVs were a good idea needs a good talking to, worst idea ever not to mention that there is no recompense for the additional workloads involved.

BeamishStout · Post by **BeamishStout** » 17 Apr 2016, 14:13

midvillain wrote:
zx135 wrote:There is no requirement to return to office to sign out, health and saftey or otherwise, in fact it's actually specifically mentioned in the Way Forward Agreement that when part of a break is taken at the end of the shift there is no requirement to return to the office for the sole purpose of signing out at the end of shift

That's actually great news to me. Can you direct me to the specific part of the agreement? In particular, I can't see how people can be forced to come back to the office in a situation where it will take them into their own time.

I know this was asked and answered in The Courier Feb 2015 (page 10) in which

Anna Gray, head of operational systems,replies: Thanks for your suggestion, Paul. Prior to 2007, a ‘job and finish’ process was accepted as normal practice, meaning when a postman or
woman completed his or her delivery round they were free to go home. The Pay and Modernisation Agreement in 2007 changed our approach and since then, we have wanted to ensure we productively occupy every working hour and make full use of the skills and time of our colleagues. In principle, all employees are required to sign on and sign off duty. However, we do not insist that those who finish their delivery route away from the office return purely for the purposes of signing out. We’re not aware of any substantial problems with the current arrangements
and don’t believe there is a need for a clocking on and clocking off system, similar to factory workers. Delivery office managers ensure the best possible use of colleagues’ time.

The original courier is available as a pdf from The Courier Archive I believe. Hope this helps.

Acca Dacca · Post by **Acca Dacca** » 17 Apr 2016, 14:35

ptopgusedandabused wrote:
Acca Dacca wrote:Most drivers our side are considerate to the passengers who can't drive and would have to walk for ages or get numerous buses to get home from the office, and so let them finish on the street ( if closer to their home than the office is ).

The way it should be. Who wants to walk home soaked to the skin after being out four or five hours pounding the pavement?

I certainly appreciate my driver who, while he maybe works an extra 10 minutes putting parcels and pda back etc, saves me almost an hour by letting me finish in street.
10 minutes? Do you finish at your office? And what about the drivers who then have to spend an hour getting home from the depot in the pouring rain after finishing later? Whoever thought CDVs were a good idea needs a good talking to, worst idea ever not to mention that there is no recompense for the additional workloads involved.

Every driver in my side has their car in the car park to get home so would have to go back anyway.

And it does take 10 mins to put the stuff away in our office.

Like I say the drivers in my office are considerate and don't mind putting the stuff back themselves to save their passenger a long trek home.

Maybe you aint as considerate but each to their own.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:19

The business is obliged to record hours worked to comply with the WTD, how it does that is up to the business and that includes signing in and out. The only thing the way forward allows us to do is use part of our break to finish early but it doesn't excuse us from signing out.

There is nothing stopping management from forcing everyone back to the office at the end of their delivery and all duties are supposed to be planned that way after a Delivery Methods revision.The only thing they need to do is apply it consistently across the office but even that isn't a complete safeguard.

Some of the advice handed out on this forum is quite frankly dangerous, does anyone seriously think they're going to win an Employment Tribunal based on refusing to sign out at the end of their delivery?

midvillain · Post by **midvillain** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:27

fishtank wrote:The business is obliged to record hours worked to comply with the WTD, how it does that is up to the business and that includes signing in and out. The only thing the way forward allows us to do is use part of our break to finish early but it doesn't excuse us from signing out.

There is nothing stopping management from forcing everyone back to the office at the end of their delivery and all duties are supposed to be planned that way after a Delivery Methods revision.

But how do you respond as a union to management allowing people to go straight home from their delivery, and can they force you to come back if it's on your own time, eg if you have worked over, or if returning to the office will take you past your hours?

claretandblue · Post by **claretandblue** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:33

I take the van back on my own, in exchange my partner helps me out with awkward parcels/ reggies.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:36

Traveling to and from your delivery is workload.
How do you think the union responds to members hiding workload by going straight home?
What do you normally do if workload takes you over your time?

midvillain · Post by **midvillain** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:41

Ok, that's a fair point. I guess there's no room for sentiment. I just think it's harsh for people who work hard, may indeed end up soaking wet and cold, who live near to the end of their delivery, and who have to come back to the office just to sign out, and then have spend an hour getting home again. But I guess that's the real world for you

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:48

It might seem harsh and might not even make sense and I dare say a lot of managers turn a blind eye to returning to the office because it suits both parties but if it comes to a fight it's not one we can win or even support as a union.

midvillain · Post by **midvillain** » 17 Apr 2016, 15:53

I like your quote at the bottom there.

My final argument would be, tho, that you're not hiding workload, because the van driver must return, and therefore from that you can see what the hours worked are. It's just basically giving a person a break after a long slog.

BeamishStout · Post by **BeamishStout** » 17 Apr 2016, 17:33

fishtank wrote: Some of the advice handed out on this forum is quite frankly dangerous, does anyone seriously think they're going to win an Employment Tribunal based on refusing to sign out at the end of their delivery?

Hope that was not aimed at myself - was not advice but stuff that has been printed. Only quoting from that font of all knowledge

RM_Feb2015_Full.pdf

and from someone reasonably high up in the food chain.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 17 Apr 2016, 19:21

You weren't advising people that they did not, when requested have to return to the office to sign out using an agreement, large parts of which have been superceded.
So no I wasn't referring to you.

I can't really make this any clearer to members, seek advice from your rep, probably even your area rep before starting a fight with management about anything, don't take anything you read on here as100% accurate whether it's well meaning or not, this job is what puts food on your table and these are dangerous times.