SENIORITY

[POSTMAN]

Blimey is this off your own back?Top post I-POSTIE
You raise some very good points,and a few headaches for the business.
Like you say,they only want to look at the bits that is good for them and ignore the others.
But we and the Union let them get away with it,once again we are our own worst enemies.
High time it bloody stopped.

[ROCKY]

i postie
like wow outstanding are you sure you are a postie, if so you are wasted,you should be a journalist

[johnnyp]

s**t i wouldnt want to be this mans dom and piss him off hes a fountain of knowledge thank god hes on our side

[L Tommo]

A brilliant piece there mate!!! Spot on!!!

OUT

DONT LET RM PICK AND CHOSE THE LAWS!! THEY HAVENT THE RIGHT!!






(THE f***ing CHEEK OF IT)

[F0zziebear]

I disgaree with I-postie.

1. If a postie took RM to court and said that a delivery round (job) had been given to someone purely on the fact that they have worked longer then that is discrimination in the eyes of European legislation. This should work in the opposite direction for other jobs, esp. in sales where older people are often discriminated against.

2. An manager showing favouratism will eventually be found out as if the best people for the job aren't doing it then performance will suffer. In the age of financial and quality pressures poor performing DOM's will be found out more quickly. You may disagree with this, and I might be looking at life through tinted glasses. I accept some of this as I know some forms of favouratism amongst management goes on, but it's mainly people appointing those that they know and probably trust.

3. Every delivery round should be almost equal. This therefore should remove the seniority question regarding which round someone does! In reality I assume there are still inequalities and RM should sort this out.

4. The allocation of leave in my opinion should be done more on the grounds of need rather than seniority. A sensible locally agreed format should be arranged, such as children's holidays, special events..... This will never be perfect but again will mitigate discrimination.

I am a former Ops manager and it annoyed me that the most senior (and in most cases experienced & quality) posties were on the easiest rounds. This left some of my most inexperienced posties on the hardest rounds. Unsurprisingly most couldn't handle this and left, thus leaving an ever ageing delivery staff.

Also my quality suffered in the summer as my most senior posties were on holiday at the same time.

I am sure some of my views are open for disagreement, but just giving a view from a manager's perspective who only ever tried to do their best.

F0zzie on terra firma

[johnnyp]

Welcome back Fozz nice to see your still out there.Im afraid i have to disgaree with your points against seniority starting with discrimination,i do not want to see any body being discrimated against and seniority does not do this ,it gives everyone in the unit starting at the top the oppottunity to sign for that job unlike leaving to management selection which could also have the same outcome(favouritism e.t.c.).This method has been used for years and has never caused problems in our office.Why fix if not broke.
Favouritism should never be an issue as it is down to doms to make sure this does not happen,if they allow it then they will suffer the consequences.
I agree walks should be pretty much equal and from what i have read on this site so far that seems to be the case ,unlike in the old days.but choice of walk still needs to be allocated example i do not want to deliver to any council estates or any thing with lots of stairs as i used to, now my seniority has helped me when it comes to selecting a duty and no longer do these type of walks, what if i had a dom who did not like me or took no interest of those facts,im not getting any younger fozz.
Changes to leave were dealt with under the way forward and the tie-break system was put in place to make it better for everyone ,trouble is leave spread in offices could still result in people not getting what they wanted as not enough slots are available.
You will never keep everyone happy in this job as we will all moan about some thing it is very very rare that ive heard postpersons moan about seniority as we all know its the best way to do things, its only management who seem to have the problem.

[L Tommo]

Nice to see you back I have to say that your points on Seniority only look on it from a RM point of view! You now work elsewhere as you keep on telling us!! But as you WERE a Ops Screw, You still only see things from this point of view!! In my opinion..
Your point on (1) Posties taking RM to court... I feel this is all about the crazy world of PC and is hypothetical as this is something that WE The CWU Members on mass Want.. Seniorty works!!

PART (2). In this time of financial & quality pressures We all know RM will use every trick in the book to get what they want, favouritisum IS RIFE!
Arse licking promoted!! Cant be good from any point of view!!!!

Part (3) Your point on RM sorting out the UNEQUALITYS of walks/318's In MC's Is a big sweeping the CWU away from this part of OUR job.. RM say they let us have our say thru the CWU and effect our work places, You as a EX screw just typified this clap trap We Posties know is bullshit! As you never mention the CWU in changing dutys/318's etc... Yes they should be more equal but From a CWU/RM/SENIORTY based change!!!!

Part (4) Well you have just opened your self up here for your point in Part (1).. What if all the single Posties with no kids but with 30+ years in want a week off but cant because a bloke with 3 years has kids takes it thru your workings of the leave as you would have it!!! COURT CASE CENTRAL!!!! Anyway we have a system that works,,, Leave it alone!!!

Last of your points Fozzie: :Confused As these people had already done the HARDER walks when the started!!! Now they worked there way thru the system and all the duties as and when resigns came , Learnt more, could pass on more info to new entrants.. Training from with in,, WORKED!!
RM didnt want to pay out for training as in my old D.O. so the newbies got NO or very little help/training on hard walks and this is why the hi turn over of
new entrants leave before 6 mnts are up!! And the fact RM employ now anyone with a pulse!! Not even if they cant speak/write ENGLISH they still employ em!!! Dont you think this has a massive reason this Great old Job is being eaten alive from with in by RM bullshite and hiding behind European laws that they choose when it suits?? I done my time on hard walks/ duties. So why cant WE keep this as it stands, It will rid the wheat from the chaff... But this dont happen because RM wont out people who cant do the job. We used to HAVE TO DO 18 MTHS Before we got our full contract when we first started.. (Well in my time) Now they hand it out like confeti.. Pay peanuts get monkeys But this is what RM want, Destroy from with in No quality, Just YES MEN AND WOMEN with no idea of Seniorty!!!! Easy then to pull all the strings without CWU with strong people in it!! CWU have bn at fault as well to let this happen!!

OUT


DONT LET THE SCREW HAND BOOK BRAIN WASH YA FOZZIE!!

[F0zziebear]

I have now left the postal industry as I rejected a new contract offer at one of either TNT or DHL.

I accept that most of you did the harder walks when you started and don't want to lose out on the perks of being there for a long time. I also accept that as you get older some part sof the job become harder (esp. council estates) - but that surely comes down to whether you are upto any part of the job (under a line in the 318 a manager can also give you any reasonable direction). If a DOM needed to put you on another walk surely that is possible if considered reasonable, not being physically fit enough shouldn't be an excuse?

As for holiday time giving it out purely on seniority is surely less justifiable than on a needs basis (though this system is probably more complicated than pure seniority). If RM did their job properly then there wouldn't need to be the CWU for your voice to be heard. Unfortunately greedy people in the past today cause a need for unions and for those reasons I fully endorse then existence of the CWU though do not agree with much of what it does, as I think their senior ranks as bad if not worse than RM management in many respects (Animal farm springs to mind!)

As for training. I think it is a disgrace that RM have cut it back so much. They are paying for it in so many other ways. As I've said all along as an Ops Manager I wanted fewer staff, who were better paid, better trained and therefore in my opinion would provide a better service and we could all go home happy at the end of the day. I personally left RM as the HR director was not prepared to invest in me, even though my boss considered it a good idea. I also left my next employer as they were trying to pay me peanuts for the work I was doing. I am lucky as I have transferable skills in a sector that needs more people. I do feel for you more senior people as much of what you have worked all those years for do not exist anymore. Seniority is one of the last perks of the job..

In conclusion I still disgaree with seniority on principal as I found it a barrier to making change that I believe in, however as a system it is fairly simple to understand and one that has developed over time and works on the whole. However, a smaller workforce is required under the European liberlaisation and the Govt will either sell the company off, or be forced to make considerable changes for it to compete, unless dramatic policy changes come into effect in both the UK and Europe. I will point out that much legislation is up for debate at the moment and arguements can still be put forward that can significantly impact on how the postal industry will look in this country. So it is worth educating yourself about the issues and attempt to influence the CWU who can possibly influence both RM's approach and the DTI

F0zz

[cjp]

Seniority works.
I started 20 years ago and did crap walks and had crap annual leave! now I have a better duty and better leave!
I consider this to be fair and equal as the person starting on RM tomorrow will receive the same treatment as I did regardless of age!
As for it being reasonable for a manager to take a postman off his/her duty to put them on a different one I think this is pure stupidity as RM then have to cover the vacated duty with someone else less qualified and probably upsetting the original PM by moving them from a duty that they were happy on (happy workforce=better workforce).
How would you compensate the staff that have done the crap time and are now possibly being rewarded for their loyalty if their seniority was removed ,sounds very unfair to me unless you only applied it to new starters

[ROCKY]

WELCOME BACK FOZZIE
dangerous can of worms you opened there on fitness if you throw fit for purpose at a senior man and throw him against his wishes on to a bad walk all he has to say is that the reason he is not fit is all the years he did on the bad walks this throws up injury and excess phsyical abuse of the body which leads back to the compensation cases seen by vdu operators,miners,etc,if you compare muscular injuries between a bunch of senior men and a group of similar age from less wearing trades then the awfull truth is we look like a bunch of crocks,this is why we have had the senior mans duties,not just because they are easier but in the past they tended to be the better paid to raise income for the pension as it was worked out on your best annual wage over so many years

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Quoting Fozzie: The allocation of leave in my opinion should be done more on the grounds of need rather than seniority. A sensible locally agreed format should be arranged, such as children's holidays, special events..... This will never be perfect but again will mitigate discrimination.

This section actually shows that seniority is correct and works as it tends to older men and women who would have children and therefore need priority to pick their breaks. But as a counterpoint would this not be discrimanation against younger or childless posties.

[F0zziebear]

Personally I'd do them for every penny if they were making you do unfair workloads. I doubt this will happen in RM, but could be proved wrong.

I wasn't suggesting moving people from walks at the drop of a hat, as having the regular postie on a walk is the best gaurantee of good quality. The thing that took up most of my time was dealing with customer complaints via the CLEO system and trying to find out what the problem was. Usually turned out the regular postie wasn't on the walk and a bit of local knowledge was missed, thus causing a mis-delivery etc...

All I was saying was that if in the case of not wanting to do a council estate walk, then the logical conclusion is that the postie is not fit enough to handle deliveries. However, common snese should prevail and having an experienced posties, and therefore on the whole they will be better at the job in terms of sorting, prepping, and delivering I would make allowances. However, in my experience there were a few senior posties who weren't upto the job anymore. When I found out it would take about 12 months to get rid of them under performance related issues I realised I was wasting my time and had to somehow deal with the situation differently

[kjbosco]

In my office seniority works brilliantly,

Leave: No one in office has not got their first choice weeks for past few years, and if they didn't they would get first choice next year( fair enough).

Duties: Can not think of a fairer way which isn't open to abuse by managment, if all walks were even in work load and time scale this would not be a problem. Unfortunatly with cuts after cuts this is becoming an impossible task to achive.
With some walks in offices clearly uneven, we dont help ourselves to rectify this. We are only paid to a certain time to do our del. and we should be well aware of the weights we should be taking out, following these guidelines instead of rushing out like travelling donkeys. Doing this will make it no longer my problem walk but that of the manager.

[johnnyp]

I have spoken about this before but even now nobody knows the answer.One thing is for sure you will never have a delivery office where the work load is spread out the same.Two 3.5 hour walks could differ considerably when it comes to indoor work.Council estates tend to have less prep e.t.c. compared to residential deliverys so really need to be a bit longer out on the road in my opinion . another point always good to have new entrants on reserve for at least a year this helps to learn i.p.s. and walks a lot quicker if you want continuity junior reserves are the answer(until they get a bit of seniority)

[ROCKY]

IVE BEEN A DRIVER SINCE I STARTED, I THOUGHT I NEW THE LOCAL AREA UNTIL I WAS THROWN OUT ON PACKETS, EVERYONE SHOULD LEARN THEIR WAY ROUND CRAP DUTIES AND GOOD AS A SUB BEFORE GETTING THEIR OWN WALK,OR DUTY, THEN MOVING UP IN SENIORITY,RM SEEMS TO FORGET THAT THIS HAS WORKED WELL FOR YEARS AND IS WHY THE COMPETITION WOULD LOVE TO HAVE US WORKING FOR THEM
AS FOR A FAIR WORKLOAD THAT IS OFTEN DOWN TO AN INDIVIDUALS PERSPECTIVE WHAT IS GOOD FOR ONE SUCKS FOR ANOTHER, THAT IS WHY SENIORITY OR REWARD FOR SERVICE IS IMPORTANT YOU GET TO PICK WHAT SUITS YOU AND THE JUNIOR STAFF GET TO LEARN LIKE WE DID,THIS BECOMES MORE IMPORTANT AS RM CONTINUES TO CUT DOWN ON TRAINING,AT THE RATE THINGS ARE GOING EXPERIENCED STAFF ARE GOING TO HAVE HIGHER AND HIGHER EXPECTATIONS OF THEIR PERFORMANCE AS SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE ARE LOST