Are we doomed??

[tramssirhc]

Martin , so what is the end game then , because I for one cannot work any harder for any longer for any less money !

Thats exactly what Martin is softening you up to accept. That's why he's banding about pie in the sky per item costs.

How do you know they're pie in the sky?
Do you have information he doesn't?

I've no idea what information Martin has. And neither do you. Which is the whole point.

[tramssirhc]

So no job for non drivers 2028

Zero chance. Until there's no letters to deliver those with no contractual obligation to undertake driving duties will remain employed.

[Jefferson Starfish]

Martin , so what is the end game then , because I for one cannot work any harder for any longer for any less money !

Thats exactly what Martin is softening you up to accept. That's why he's banding about pie in the sky per item costs.

How do you know they're pie in the sky?
Do you have information he doesn't?

I've no idea what information Martin has. And neither do you. Which is the whole point.

The point is you don't know what the figures are, so how can you say Martins are pie in the sky?

[norris9]

Martin , so what is the end game then , because I for one cannot work any harder for any longer for any less money !

Thats exactly what Martin is softening you up to accept. That's why he's banding about pie in the sky per item costs.

How do you know they're pie in the sky?
Do you have information he doesn't?

I've no idea what information Martin has. And neither do you. Which is the whole point.

We already know you hate the CWU and want to bombard any thread martin posts on, can you at least pause and let others discuss the subject. We don't need to know your anti union stance every single day.

[tramssirhc]

Martin , so what is the end game then , because I for one cannot work any harder for any longer for any less money !

Thats exactly what Martin is softening you up to accept. That's why he's banding about pie in the sky per item costs.

How do you know they're pie in the sky?
Do you have information he doesn't?

I've no idea what information Martin has. And neither do you. Which is the whole point.

The point is you don't know what the figures are, so how can you say Martins are pie in the sky?

Because I can. That aside I'll standby my assertion. Prove that Evri figure is correct. Why pick Evri when there are other operators who use an even cheaper labour model? Prove that Royal Mail figure is correct.

The purpose of the figures is to create a narrative that gets workers to accept the erosion of their terms and conditions for the sake of profit. Martin is doing the industry's bidding.

[tramssirhc]

Martin , so what is the end game then , because I for one cannot work any harder for any longer for any less money !

Thats exactly what Martin is softening you up to accept. That's why he's banding about pie in the sky per item costs.

How do you know they're pie in the sky?
Do you have information he doesn't?

I've no idea what information Martin has. And neither do you. Which is the whole point.

We already know you hate the CWU and want to bombard any thread martin posts on, can you at least pause and let others discuss the subject. We don't need to know your anti union stance every single day.

Nah.

[reddevils]

Yes its getting tedious now tramssirhc.
We understand you don't like how the CWU operates or its leadership. But all you do is criticise and don't offer any realistic solutions.

Martin is right about the industry royal mail operates in and it cannot be disputed. Google the terms and conditions of all the other parcel couriers and you will see it is an industry built on the exploitation of its workers.
Like Martin says they pay no national insurance or annual leave due to the self employed model the couriers operate. The fuel costs, insurance and vehicle costs are on placed on the courier not the business.

With this model it leads to massive reduced costs that enables them to be competitive with their pricing which is having a race to the bottom effect.

Whatever your opinions are on the Union, this is the environment that the Union are operating in. It is an incredibly tough environment to be in. Businesses in Industries follow the same patterns otherwise the business stops functioning and becomes unprofitable.
You can't keep profitable if your competitors are able to undercut you consistently.

The only solution is royal mail adopt the competitors model or the other couriers are forced by law to adopt royal mails. Time will tell.

But the Union will have a huge impact on how this plays out. They have to convince the government to level the playing field.

And before people say we are not a parcel business, we deliver letters. Letters are in terminal decline. If royal mail only existed as a letter business they would be bankrupt by now. There is no profit in letter delivery anymore unfortunately. The parcels are required to pay your wages.

Tramssirhc will look at this as cheerleading the business but its not. Its just bleak cold analysis of the environment we exist in. The only power we have is pressuring the government to level the playing field. Waiting for some utopian marxist uprising isn't going to cut it.

[tramssirhc]

Yes its getting tedious now tramssirhc.
We understand you don't like how the CWU operates or its leadership. But all you do is criticise and don't offer any realistic solutions.

Martin is right about the industry royal mail operates in and it cannot be disputed. Google the terms and conditions of all the other parcel couriers and you will see it is an industry built on the exploitation of its workers.
Like Martin says they pay no national insurance or annual leave due to the self employed model the couriers operate. The fuel costs, insurance and vehicle costs are on placed on the courier not the business.

With this model it leads to massive reduced costs that enables them to be competitive with their pricing which is having a race to the bottom effect.

Whatever your opinions are on the Union, this is the environment that the Union are operating in. It is an incredibly tough environment to be in. Businesses in Industries follow the same patterns otherwise the business stops functioning and becomes unprofitable.
You can't keep profitable if your competitors are able to undercut you consistently.

The only solution is royal mail adopt the competitors model or the other couriers are forced by law to adopt royal mails. Time will tell.

But the Union will have a huge impact on how this plays out. They have to convince the government to level the playing field.

And before people say we are not a parcel business, we deliver letters. Letters are in terminal decline. If royal mail only existed as a letter business they would be bankrupt by now. There is no profit in letter delivery anymore unfortunately. The parcels are required to pay your wages.

Tramssirhc will look at this as cheerleading the business but its not. Its just bleak cold analysis of the environment we exist in. The only power we have is pressuring the government to level the playing field. Waiting for some utopian marxist uprising isn't going to cut it.

This is not an analysis of the industry nor the way it works. Its a defence of the CWU and Martin. Until Martin can demonstrate the figures hes using are true then it's pure speculation. And what you've written is the usual CWU lines which are designed to get us to accept the destruction of our jobs. I notice you have nothing to say about the bosses and how the industry can continue to put them in the top 1% of earners.

[reddevils]

This is not an analysis of the industry nor the way it works. Its a defence of the CWU and Martin. Until Martin can demonstrate the figures hes using are true then it's pure speculation. And what you've written is the usual CWU lines which are designed to get us to accept the destruction of our jobs. I notice you have nothing to say about the bosses and how the industry can continue to put them in the top 1% of earners.
[/quote]

It is the way the industry works unfortunately. It shouldn't have been able to happen. There should have been a strict criteria to qualify what a worker is from the start so the bogus self employment model could never materialise in our sector.

Its not speculation. You only have to do the maths to work out that Royal Mail can easily be undercut. If you as a business don't have to pay national insurance, annual leave,sick pay , fuel, insurance, vehicle breakdown but another business has to pay that per employee it is safe to say that each employee is costing you much more. This factors into how competitive they can be with pricing.

Nobody wants the destruction of our jobs. It is the exact opposite. We want to strengthen our jobs. It is only facing the reality of our situation and reacting to it that we are able to do that.

I don't know what you mean about bosses. In this capitalist system that we live in all bosses earn ridiculous sums of money which isn't right. If you are talking about the CWU he is the leader of the organisation. Leaders of every organisation get paid healthy amounts for the responsibility they have. Im not sure how this has anything to do with the problems we are facing in the industry.

[Mcclinton]

Can see a scenario in the future where there is a reduced staff sorting and bagging up Mail/Parcels in the Office. Then a fleet of Owner/ Drivers arrives to deliver it. A employers dream.

[goldy2007]

This is not an analysis of the industry nor the way it works. Its a defence of the CWU and Martin. Until Martin can demonstrate the figures hes using are true then it's pure speculation. And what you've written is the usual CWU lines which are designed to get us to accept the destruction of our jobs. I notice you have nothing to say about the bosses and how the industry can continue to put them in the top 1% of earners.

It is the way the industry works unfortunately. It shouldn't have been able to happen. There should have been a strict criteria to qualify what a worker is from the start so the bogus self employment model could never materialise in our sector.

Its not speculation. You only have to do the maths to work out that Royal Mail can easily be undercut. If you as a business don't have to pay national insurance, annual leave,sick pay , fuel, insurance, vehicle breakdown but another business has to pay that per employee it is safe to say that each employee is costing you much more. This factors into how competitive they can be with pricing.

Nobody wants the destruction of our jobs. It is the exact opposite. We want to strengthen our jobs. It is only facing the reality of our situation and reacting to it that we are able to do that.

I don't know what you mean about bosses. In this capitalist system that we live in all bosses earn ridiculous sums of money which isn't right. If you are talking about the CWU he is the leader of the organisation. Leaders of every organisation get paid healthy amounts for the responsibility they have. Im not sure how this has anything to do with the problems we are facing in the industry.
[/quote]

Royal Mail is et up to be a national service that was a public institution till it was sols for privatisation

It paid what ever it took to clear all mail every day the budget didn’t matter quality of service did but it still made money

Privatisation has battled for 13 years to try and compete with other couriers who don’t operate the same way and it has cut and cut and cut , revisions,reduction in head count, no replacing vans every 2 years, 2 tier workforce no new full time contract in 20 years

And we are still producing a worse standard of customer service than before privatisation

Comparing RM to other couriers is like comparing apples and oranges

[tramssirhc]

This is not an analysis of the industry nor the way it works. Its a defence of the CWU and Martin. Until Martin can demonstrate the figures hes using are true then it's pure speculation. And what you've written is the usual CWU lines which are designed to get us to accept the destruction of our jobs. I notice you have nothing to say about the bosses and how the industry can continue to put them in the top 1% of earners.

It is the way the industry works unfortunately. It shouldn't have been able to happen. There should have been a strict criteria to qualify what a worker is from the start so the bogus self employment model could never materialise in our sector.

Its not speculation. You only have to do the maths to work out that Royal Mail can easily be undercut. If you as a business don't have to pay national insurance, annual leave,sick pay , fuel, insurance, vehicle breakdown but another business has to pay that per employee it is safe to say that each employee is costing you much more. This factors into how competitive they can be with pricing.

Nobody wants the destruction of our jobs. It is the exact opposite. We want to strengthen our jobs. It is only facing the reality of our situation and reacting to it that we are able to do that.

I don't know what you mean about bosses. In this capitalist system that we live in all bosses earn ridiculous sums of money which isn't right. If you are talking about the CWU he is the leader of the organisation. Leaders of every organisation get paid healthy amounts for the responsibility they have. Im not sure how this has anything to do with the problems we are facing in the industry.
[/quote]

The basis of your assertions is the cost of our jobs to the industry. You assume that only one employer in the industry has a fixed costs base. That's not true. The original post asked if we were doomed and that got a reply from Martin stating comparisons which have no factual information to quantify them.

Martin makes these comparisons to prepare the ground for attacks on our jobs. He's telling us we aren't cheap enough but uses figures without any justification nor all of the fixed costs that incur his figure. Millions are spent by the industry on the management of us. We could reduce Martin's figure by reducing the layers of management. Does one postal worker needs millions of pounds spent on them in management costs? There's huge saving that other employers do not incur. Millions are spent on the facilitation of the CWU. Yet another cost that not all employers incur.

No arguement can be justified about a per item cost that does not include the remuneration of every worker involved in that cost. Nor can the historical facts that shareholder dividends have been taken out at such value that the money removed would have reduced that fixed cost significantly.

[postslippete]

Looking at this you would expect productivity to improve and yet we're still hearing that RM is forecast to lose over £200 million.

Source?

I can't find anything about this.... only articles saying sickness costs Royal Mail £200mil a year.

Martin mentioned it on the other thread

Our pay rise cost over £170 million pounds for 3% which will be an ongoing cost for future years. Royal Mail made £5 million pounds profit on a £9 billion turnover. They are forecasted to lost over £200 million this year even with USO deployment.

[tramssirhc]

This is not an analysis of the industry nor the way it works. Its a defence of the CWU and Martin. Until Martin can demonstrate the figures hes using are true then it's pure speculation. And what you've written is the usual CWU lines which are designed to get us to accept the destruction of our jobs. I notice you have nothing to say about the bosses and how the industry can continue to put them in the top 1% of earners.

It is the way the industry works unfortunately. It shouldn't have been able to happen. There should have been a strict criteria to qualify what a worker is from the start so the bogus self employment model could never materialise in our sector.

Its not speculation. You only have to do the maths to work out that Royal Mail can easily be undercut. If you as a business don't have to pay national insurance, annual leave,sick pay , fuel, insurance, vehicle breakdown but another business has to pay that per employee it is safe to say that each employee is costing you much more. This factors into how competitive they can be with pricing.

Nobody wants the destruction of our jobs. It is the exact opposite. We want to strengthen our jobs. It is only facing the reality of our situation and reacting to it that we are able to do that.

I don't know what you mean about bosses. In this capitalist system that we live in all bosses earn ridiculous sums of money which isn't right. If you are talking about the CWU he is the leader of the organisation. Leaders of every organisation get paid healthy amounts for the responsibility they have. Im not sure how this has anything to do with the problems we are facing in the industry.

Royal Mail is et up to be a national service that was a public institution till it was sols for privatisation

It paid what ever it took to clear all mail every day the budget didn’t matter quality of service did but it still made money

Privatisation has battled for 13 years to try and compete with other couriers who don’t operate the same way and it has cut and cut and cut , revisions,reduction in head count, no replacing vans every 2 years, 2 tier workforce no new full time contract in 20 years

And we are still producing a worse standard of customer service than before privatisation

Comparing RM to other couriers is like comparing apples and oranges
[/quote]

I'm all for comparing the whole industry but let's have it right and let's see the working out.

[goldy2007]

This is not an analysis of the industry nor the way it works. Its a defence of the CWU and Martin. Until Martin can demonstrate the figures hes using are true then it's pure speculation. And what you've written is the usual CWU lines which are designed to get us to accept the destruction of our jobs. I notice you have nothing to say about the bosses and how the industry can continue to put them in the top 1% of earners.

It is the way the industry works unfortunately. It shouldn't have been able to happen. There should have been a strict criteria to qualify what a worker is from the start so the bogus self employment model could never materialise in our sector.

Its not speculation. You only have to do the maths to work out that Royal Mail can easily be undercut. If you as a business don't have to pay national insurance, annual leave,sick pay , fuel, insurance, vehicle breakdown but another business has to pay that per employee it is safe to say that each employee is costing you much more. This factors into how competitive they can be with pricing.

Nobody wants the destruction of our jobs. It is the exact opposite. We want to strengthen our jobs. It is only facing the reality of our situation and reacting to it that we are able to do that.

I don't know what you mean about bosses. In this capitalist system that we live in all bosses earn ridiculous sums of money which isn't right. If you are talking about the CWU he is the leader of the organisation. Leaders of every organisation get paid healthy amounts for the responsibility they have. Im not sure how this has anything to do with the problems we are facing in the industry.

Royal Mail is et up to be a national service that was a public institution till it was sols for privatisation

It paid what ever it took to clear all mail every day the budget didn’t matter quality of service did but it still made money

Privatisation has battled for 13 years to try and compete with other couriers who don’t operate the same way and it has cut and cut and cut , revisions,reduction in head count, no replacing vans every 2 years, 2 tier workforce no new full time contract in 20 years

And we are still producing a worse standard of customer service than before privatisation

Comparing RM to other couriers is like comparing apples and oranges

I'm all for comparing the whole industry but let's have it right and let's see the working out.
[/quote]
That is the problem everybody wants to compare

when it can t ever be a fair comparison

Royal Mail chasing them companies to get ever bigger profits with a system that has been set up to serve every house every day for most of its history

When it should never have been privatised

Privatisation is the very reason we are in this position

Coustomwers get a worse service

Posties treated ever poorer