Union Using Door to Door Supplement as Bargaining Tool

[ted_e_bear]

Martin, I’d be interested in how open you feel RM are to the idea of “innovative duty patterns”

For decades they have treated anything like this with suspicion.

They could easily implement duties now that include Sundays, late parcel deliveries and collections which people would fall over themselves to sign up for if they were 35hrs over 3 days for example.

It seems though that anything that makes their rotas and computer systems slightly tricky to manage is batted away without discussion.

Definitely, I would for a start, I suggested a while ago something like a hybrid where you do part of a walk then the lat parcels which would enable two things, one - oldies wouldn't have to do a full walking duty two - they wouldn't have to pay the daft flat 4 hours or whatever it is overtime that makes lat's unprofitable, obviously manager wasn't interested in the same way that I've read multiple times on here people requesting a really simple job share 3 days per week only to be refused as it doesn't quite fit and requires a minimal amount of work to implement, we really need royal mail to put actual managers in charge of delivery offices that would solve many issues.

[Barnacle]

Martin, I’d be interested in how open you feel RM are to the idea of “innovative duty patterns”

For decades they have treated anything like this with suspicion.

They could easily implement duties now that include Sundays, late parcel deliveries and collections which people would fall over themselves to sign up for if they were 35hrs over 3 days for example.

It seems though that anything that makes their rotas and computer systems slightly tricky to manage is batted away without discussion.

Definitely, I would for a start, I suggested a while ago something like a hybrid where you do part of a walk then the lat parcels which would enable two things, one - oldies wouldn't have to do a full walking duty two - they wouldn't have to pay the daft flat 4 hours or whatever it is overtime that makes lat's unprofitable, obviously manager wasn't interested in the same way that I've read multiple times on here people requesting a really simple job share 3 days per week only to be refused as it doesn't quite fit and requires a minimal amount of work to implement, we really need royal mail to put actual managers in charge of delivery offices that would solve many issues.

More people are flexible and open to doing different jobs, than RM appreciate.

[scotchy1962]

No a union exists to protect it's members and to collectively bargain agreements on our behalf. That is the point, not how a company conducts its business.

The members have different needs depending on their age, function etc.
What processing want and what delivery want might be conflicting.
How can a union protect everyone's interests all of the time?

As clearly they can't, then a little bit of cost analysis might not go amiss.
Surely.

Could be right Clash, just noticed something, in the whole reading Martins long and intricate post to me, i must have just scanned over bits and ignored what i thought wasn't important.

[scotchy1962]

A few comments :

1. Scotchy one of the flaws of privatisation is that Royal Mail will go to the market and ask potential investors to invest millions into the company based on projects like coming off planes , reducing sick leave introducing a two tier workforce and reducing jobs. Sometimes investors invest thousands / millions into the company based on this and then when they present the union later with how these proposals impact the workforce it is difficult to change as it has been backed by investors paying huge sums of money.

2. In Germany and some of European countries they have work councils which have design and strategy boards involving unions at the earliest stage of a strategy giving the unions the opportunity to shape and change a strategy. This does not compromise the collective bargaining power of the union but it does give much earlier sight of a proposal and time to shape it.

3. It does not matter who owns the company this industry has less than 5 years to secure its future. It currently has an 8 billion turnover and is possibly going to break even at its full years results.
Wages account for 72% of its turn over. Royal Mail share of parcels has halved since privatisation. Letters are still in decline , downstream access accounts for 70% of letters meaning less revenue and 1st class letters are in decline.

4. Any union who is not going to recognise the above reality is not representing their members interests. We seen other great
industries virtually go to the wall coal , dockyards , print and steel.

5. USO reform will happen next year. The union can stand on the sidelines and watch it happen or it can shape it , change it for the better and can resolve quality , improved attendances including more Saturdays off and resolve a number of outstanding issues such as pay , harmonisation of new entrants, no compulsory redundancies and improved VR.

6. There will be job losses as a result of USO reform. Of Com has said Royal Mail are losing over 400 million from the current USO being in place. The CWU will demand a no compulsory redundancy agreement so the job losses will be through a combination of natural wastage ie through attrition and voluntary redundancy. The number of jobs losses remain uncertain until after the pilot and the CWU have not agreed any number.

7. We could replace those loss jobs with growth through delivery next day parcels up to 20:00. Royal Mail share of next parcels is less than 27% ,80% of next day orders are done between 20:00 and midnight , it cannot connect with core so delivering later in the day and early evening is the only way Royal Mail can increase their share. Before anyone says that people do not want to deliver at this time, there are 6000 individuals who are working up to 20:00 this peak/ Christmas so clearly there is some who would want to deliver at this time.

8. There are over 8000 full time equivalent agency staff working in Royal Mail the bulk of which are working because our members do not want to in a mail centre want to work on a Saturday or at night and in deliveries they do not want to work later or on a Sunday. This is madness in an industry which is facing job cuts. We have got to create innovative duties over 3/4 days which remove agency staff and replace them with well paid permanent jobs.

9. Lastly I have been in Royal Mail and the CWU for 40 years , during that time I have seen unpopular National agreements such as IWM , Way Forward ( the only agreement voted down by the membership on the 1st ballot. ) Pay and Mod ,BT2010 and the latest agreement. Believe me when I say this carrying on striking would in 2023 would have been the worse decision we could have made. Why do you think they delayed the back pay and £500 they were running out of cash !!

10. The takeover and USO reform present the CWU with the best the union with the best opportunity to have a total reset and resolve the outstanding issues. You can either support this or you can stand on the sidelines and support the status quo there is really no other position.

Earlier Martin i scanned this statement quite quickly as i had a lot to do on my day off, although i see you mention how perhaps we should all have to suck it up and work these innovative work patterns so maybe not my day off for much longer!
There's a reason nobody wants to work these shifts..... they are very anti-social and RM won't pay the true value of working these shifts.
This is what i mean about protecting your members and not throwing them under the bus, i have worked very anti-social hours a long time ago, and i was grateful for the work as it was the early to mid 80's and thatcher had the job market on its knees, i sucked it up because it's all there was, but never again and not at my age.
If you can find people within the workforce who will voluntarily go onto these shifts that's great, but if you allow RM to force them with your backing it will be unforgivable.
I know you will try your best to deliver something of real meaning, it's just that i believe you will struggle to get what you hope for and we will end up with crumbs.
Finally let me thank you for your explanation of what you see as the way forward, i hope you take what i have said on board as a genuine concern.

[SpacePhoenix]

How many of those 6,000 doing evening deliveries actually want to and how many have basically been forced to?

[kazardaimenu]

A 4 day week would help incorporate the later arrival items that are ordered online at the stroke of midnight. I’m sure there would be a few takers for a 4 day week with every other Saturday off or more.

[TopperGas]

A 4 day week would help incorporate the later arrival items that are ordered online at the stroke of midnight. I’m sure there would be a few takers for a 4 day week with every other Saturday off or more.

Apart from Monday's LATs in our office are down to a handful each day, I am not really sure there's a need to have dozens of posties all working until 8pm just for an handful of parcels. When I put am on delivery I see plenty of Evri, DPD and Amazon drivers delivering parcels during day light hours, I can't see they are still also delivering parcels late into the evening, so those companies must have different drivers delivering in the evening, not that I've ever seen DPD delivering in the evening.

[yellowbelly]

In last night’s CWU Live, Martin Walsh mentioned that the Delivery Supplement costs RM £40m.

It is clearly part of pay discussions because otherwise, why mention it?

It would be great if someone had a copy of the agreement which contained the introduction of the Delivery Supplement because that would clearly specify what exactly it covers.

BT 2010 and beyond (it's in the downloads section) - just to muddy the waters.....! :

To coincide with the introduction of the national agreement unit payments will cease and
the 3 items per week cap will be removed. D2D Monies will be turned into a delivery
supplement paid 52 weeks a year for all delivery employees (OPG and ORR) pro rata for
part time employees.

[Barnacle]

In last night’s CWU Live, Martin Walsh mentioned that the Delivery Supplement costs RM £40m.

It is clearly part of pay discussions because otherwise, why mention it?

It would be great if someone had a copy of the agreement which contained the introduction of the Delivery Supplement because that would clearly specify what exactly it covers.

BT 2010 and beyond (it's in the downloads section) - just to muddy the waters.....! :

To coincide with the introduction of the national agreement unit payments will cease and
the 3 items per week cap will be removed. D2D Monies will be turned into a delivery
supplement paid 52 weeks a year for all delivery employees (OPG and ORR) pro rata for
part time employees.

Thank you, I’ll have a look at that.

I have to correct that £40m Delivery Supplement figure as Martin Walsh clarified that that is what it would cost RM to add it to new entrants contracts. So no idea how much it is as a whole.

[kazardaimenu]

A 4 day week would help incorporate the later arrival items that are ordered online at the stroke of midnight. I’m sure there would be a few takers for a 4 day week with every other Saturday off or more.

Apart from Monday's LATs in our office are down to a handful each day, I am not really sure there's a need to have dozens of posties all working until 8pm just for an handful of parcels. When I put am on delivery I see plenty of Evri, DPD and Amazon drivers delivering parcels during day light hours, I can't see they are still also delivering parcels late into the evening, so those companies must have different drivers delivering in the evening, not that I've ever seen DPD delivering in the evening.

Yes certainly not worth doing at the moment unless there’s a huge influx of LATs in the future. We might just need a handful of people working a slightly later shift and there should be no need for them to be out til 8pm outside of the run up to Christmas on overtime.

[2chorizon]

A few comments :

1. Scotchy one of the flaws of privatisation is that Royal Mail will go to the market and ask potential investors to invest millions into the company based on projects like coming off planes , reducing sick leave introducing a two tier workforce and reducing jobs. Sometimes investors invest thousands / millions into the company based on this and then when they present the union later with how these proposals impact the workforce it is difficult to change as it has been backed by investors paying huge sums of money.

2. In Germany and some of European countries they have work councils which have design and strategy boards involving unions at the earliest stage of a strategy giving the unions the opportunity to shape and change a strategy. This does not compromise the collective bargaining power of the union but it does give much earlier sight of a proposal and time to shape it.

3. It does not matter who owns the company this industry has less than 5 years to secure its future. It currently has an 8 billion turnover and is possibly going to break even at its full years results.
Wages account for 72% of its turn over. Royal Mail share of parcels has halved since privatisation. Letters are still in decline , downstream access accounts for 70% of letters meaning less revenue and 1st class letters are in decline.

4. Any union who is not going to recognise the above reality is not representing their members interests. We seen other great
industries virtually go to the wall coal , dockyards , print and steel.

5. USO reform will happen next year. The union can stand on the sidelines and watch it happen or it can shape it , change it for the better and can resolve quality , improved attendances including more Saturdays off and resolve a number of outstanding issues such as pay , harmonisation of new entrants, no compulsory redundancies and improved VR.

6. There will be job losses as a result of USO reform. Of Com has said Royal Mail are losing over 400 million from the current USO being in place. The CWU will demand a no compulsory redundancy agreement so the job losses will be through a combination of natural wastage ie through attrition and voluntary redundancy. The number of jobs losses remain uncertain until after the pilot and the CWU have not agreed any number.

7. We could replace those loss jobs with growth through delivery next day parcels up to 20:00. Royal Mail share of next parcels is less than 27% ,80% of next day orders are done between 20:00 and midnight , it cannot connect with core so delivering later in the day and early evening is the only way Royal Mail can increase their share. Before anyone says that people do not want to deliver at this time, there are 6000 individuals who are working up to 20:00 this peak/ Christmas so clearly there is some who would want to deliver at this time.

8. There are over 8000 full time equivalent agency staff working in Royal Mail the bulk of which are working because our members do not want to in a mail centre want to work on a Saturday or at night and in deliveries they do not want to work later or on a Sunday. This is madness in an industry which is facing job cuts. We have got to create innovative duties over 3/4 days which remove agency staff and replace them with well paid permanent jobs.

9. Lastly I have been in Royal Mail and the CWU for 40 years , during that time I have seen unpopular National agreements such as IWM , Way Forward ( the only agreement voted down by the membership on the 1st ballot. ) Pay and Mod ,BT2010 and the latest agreement. Believe me when I say this carrying on striking would in 2023 would have been the worse decision we could have made. Why do you think they delayed the back pay and £500 they were running out of cash !!

10. The takeover and USO reform present the CWU with the best the union with the best opportunity to have a total reset and resolve the outstanding issues. You can either support this or you can stand on the sidelines and support the status quo there is really no other position.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "harmonisation of new entrants" please Martin.

I was trying to tell someone that the CWU has stated the paid meal relief is outdated and is being looked at.

[2chorizon]

Sometimes in life you just have to do what is right and if the ship goes down, the ship goes down.

This ^

[Smoothbackground]

How many of those 6,000 doing evening deliveries actually want to and how many have basically been forced to?

A few might be okay with this — “want” is much too strong a word — but most, if not the vast majority, have indeed been forced.

[Smoothbackground]

A 4 day week would help incorporate the later arrival items that are ordered online at the stroke of midnight. I’m sure there would be a few takers for a 4 day week with every other Saturday off or more.

Apart from Monday's LATs in our office are down to a handful each day, I am not really sure there's a need to have dozens of posties all working until 8pm just for an handful of parcels. When I put am on delivery I see plenty of Evri, DPD and Amazon drivers delivering parcels during day light hours, I can't see they are still also delivering parcels late into the evening, so those companies must have different drivers delivering in the evening, not that I've ever seen DPD delivering in the evening.

It isn’t just LATs — it is mainly tomorrow’s work delivered the afternoon before (advance/advanced work).

[Mickeybrowneyes]

A 4 day week would help incorporate the later arrival items that are ordered online at the stroke of midnight. I’m sure there would be a few takers for a 4 day week with every other Saturday off or more.

Alternative duty patterns like four day weeks are popular to those that are on them.
We are currently on a four day week and everyone barring none would vote to keep it.
The work life balance you get and the five day weekends you get every third Saturday would no doubt outweigh the annoyance of later working hours.
It is the right direction for the union to be pushing.
Even the nine day fortnights are popular.
The five day week with one rotating rest day is the worst working pattern in my opinion.
But it is what most people are on at the minute.