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Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

04 Jul 2020, 08:47

norris9 wrote:
postslippete wrote:We cannot compete with other couriers if we just deliver parcels because our business model is massively different. If our hands are tied by OfCom in regards to the USO then we better make sure that we focus on expanding the letter business, because after all, we are the sole provider and its the one USP that we have right now. Before anyone says that letters are dying because of e-mail, well, it has been going for 500 years. It is what we are about and surely it makes sense to have a load of letters to deliver when we got a ton of smaller packets (that other couriers really aren't interested in due to the margins) to deliver as well.


Why can't the USO be kept in place, but just introduce another letter delivery option, call it 3rd Class, or change the 2nd Class service. Whatever you call it..... it's a service where you can send a letter and it will be delivered on the following Tuesday. A cheaper service for non-urgent mail.

Most of the mail we deliver is non-urgent so I'd assume banks, HMRC, billing companies, etc may end up using this cheaper service that I just invented.

This is all just a theory. Maybe it would not work like this. Maybe banks and billing companies would rather pay more to get statements/bills to their customers quickly. Who knows. RM could ask them if they would be interested in a cheaper Tuesday only delivery service and see what their thoughts are.

I suppose the issue here is if a major company or the government need to mass mail every UK citizen urgently, then would RM still be able to provide that service as the whole point in my idea above is for RM to focus on delivering parcels + a small amount of urgent letters. How would you fit in a sudden influx of polling cards into your parcel/urgent letter delivery....

Maybe RM should offload the USO to the government and the government set up a letter delivering service. RM rids itself of letters and can focus solely on parcels. The government takes on workers and lets them job and finish. :nana


One class of Letter ,Next Day Delivery in the Mail Center Collection Area , Day After The Rest , Segregation costs time & money

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

04 Jul 2020, 12:27

1.
I think Royal Mail should start advertising on TV again. Like in the late 90s and early 2000s with the adverts which showed the posties on bikes going around a small town knowing everybody on a first name basis. I feel like we need to reconnect with that spirit of community once more.

Maybe in November/december time Royal Mail could make some advertisements during some big shows encouraging people to write letters to eachother and send Christmas cards? I feel like more effort should be made to get people back into letter writing and the value of it.

2.
Give businesses who use Royal Mail/parcelforce for parcel contracts a free D2D every 6 months. Also if they do a royal mail marketing mail shot to their customers give them 50% off for loyalty for choosing us as their parcel contract. This would be great value for money both for royal mail and the customer. It may also attract some businesses like sports direct/next to return to royal mail.

3.
Modify DSA agreement. Do not allow our competitors access to our network downstream unless we cannot cope with the demand. If we have franking machines available force it through royal mail at our prices. If Whistle/ukmail/DX turn up with flats and letters refuse them and tell them to deliver them themselves. It is clear that the DSA which was set up with the goal of getting our competitors off the ground delivering their OWN mail is being ABUSED and they have no intention of ever delivering it. Let us call their bluff and only deliver what we Frank. If we cannot cope with the demand, outsource the franking to the competitors until the production can be increased to levels we can cope with.


THIS IS HOW YOU SAVE ROYAL MAIL!!!!

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

04 Jul 2020, 17:09

What sort of Breakdown do DSA companies have to provide before handing the items over to RM ie Do they sort it down to the M C or if the M C covers more than one Postcode Area do they sort it down to Postcode Areas

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 14:39

norris9 wrote:
Why can't the USO be kept in place, but just introduce another letter delivery option, call it 3rd Class, or change the 2nd Class service. Whatever you call it..... it's a service where you can send a letter and it will be delivered on the following Tuesday. A cheaper service for non-urgent mail.

Most of the mail we deliver is non-urgent so I'd assume banks, HMRC, billing companies, etc may end up using this cheaper service that I just invented.

This is all just a theory. Maybe it would not work like this. Maybe banks and billing companies would rather pay more to get statements/bills to their customers quickly. Who knows. RM could ask them if they would be interested in a cheaper Tuesday only delivery service and see what their thoughts are.

I suppose the issue here is if a major company or the government need to mass mail every UK citizen urgently, then would RM still be able to provide that service as the whole point in my idea above is for RM to focus on delivering parcels + a small amount of urgent letters. How would you fit in a sudden influx of polling cards into your parcel/urgent letter delivery....

Maybe RM should offload the USO to the government and the government set up a letter delivering service. RM rids itself of letters and can focus solely on parcels. The government takes on workers and lets them job and finish. :nana


Can't see RM,a privatised company now, managing to offload the USO to the government. Even if we had a Labour govt., a renationalised Royal Mail will be quite low on their agenda.

As for a cheaper service for handling and delivering letters,we have to be careful not to sell ourselves short. And don't forget most of the mailsort we deliver (and it's probably three-quarters of mail we deliver) is being handled by DSA providers who cream our profits on letters. All they do is collect the mail from businesses like banks and deliver it to the relevant RM mail centre!! We could do that like we used to and cut out the very unnecessary middleman who have absolutely no intentions of delivering mail themselves. Its all regulated by OfCom to encourage competition and we can't get round it. Its bonkers.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 15:15

Munchboii wrote:
3.
Modify DSA agreement. Do not allow our competitors access to our network downstream unless we cannot cope with the demand. If we have franking machines available force it through royal mail at our prices. If Whistle/ukmail/DX turn up with flats and letters refuse them and tell them to deliver them themselves. It is clear that the DSA which was set up with the goal of getting our competitors off the ground delivering their OWN mail is being ABUSED and they have no intention of ever delivering it. Let us call their bluff and only deliver what we Frank. If we cannot cope with the demand, outsource the franking to the competitors until the production can be increased to levels we can cope with.


THIS IS HOW YOU SAVE ROYAL MAIL!!!!


This is the biggie that if Royal Mail could modify or change is the route to profitability in letters IMHO. Yes,we could advertise as it puts our brand name out there and we could offer temporary discounts to encourage more letters being delivered. But RM would give their right arm to have a monopoly on letters again. There are loads of DSA providers out there which is evidence that what we are paying them is profitable. I guess some DSA companies are smarter than others but none of them have any intentions of delivering. I noticed one company do actually deliver post - but it's at a massive premium,so that's the workaround for them. Another company processes packages up in bulk for Royal Mail to collect.

I think we should be making moves to stop couriers cherry picking. Remember whistl delivering post in only the most profitable areas? Well,Amazon are doing that with parcel deliveries. How is it fair that we should be delivering their parcels because they can't be bothered to travel or deliver because it's unprofitable for them?

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 16:42

postslippete wrote:
Munchboii wrote:
3.
Modify DSA agreement. Do not allow our competitors access to our network downstream unless we cannot cope with the demand. If we have franking machines available force it through royal mail at our prices. If Whistle/ukmail/DX turn up with flats and letters refuse them and tell them to deliver them themselves. It is clear that the DSA which was set up with the goal of getting our competitors off the ground delivering their OWN mail is being ABUSED and they have no intention of ever delivering it. Let us call their bluff and only deliver what we Frank. If we cannot cope with the demand, outsource the franking to the competitors until the production can be increased to levels we can cope with.


THIS IS HOW YOU SAVE ROYAL MAIL!!!!


This is the biggie that if Royal Mail could modify or change is the route to profitability in letters IMHO. Yes,we could advertise as it puts our brand name out there and we could offer temporary discounts to encourage more letters being delivered. But RM would give their right arm to have a monopoly on letters again. There are loads of DSA providers out there which is evidence that what we are paying them is profitable. I guess some DSA companies are smarter than others but none of them have any intentions of delivering. I noticed one company do actually deliver post - but it's at a massive premium,so that's the workaround for them. Another company processes packages up in bulk for Royal Mail to collect.

I think we should be making moves to stop couriers cherry picking. Remember whistl delivering post in only the most profitable areas? Well,Amazon are doing that with parcel deliveries. How is it fair that we should be delivering their parcels because they can't be bothered to travel or deliver because it's unprofitable for them?


What is stopping R M starting a DSA operation ,set up Two Or Three Sorting Centers & feed the mail into the Delivery System like existing DSA Companies

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 19:46

wallan wrote:
postslippete wrote:
Munchboii wrote:
3.
Modify DSA agreement. Do not allow our competitors access to our network downstream unless we cannot cope with the demand. If we have franking machines available force it through royal mail at our prices. If Whistle/ukmail/DX turn up with flats and letters refuse them and tell them to deliver them themselves. It is clear that the DSA which was set up with the goal of getting our competitors off the ground delivering their OWN mail is being ABUSED and they have no intention of ever delivering it. Let us call their bluff and only deliver what we Frank. If we cannot cope with the demand, outsource the franking to the competitors until the production can be increased to levels we can cope with.


THIS IS HOW YOU SAVE ROYAL MAIL!!!!


This is the biggie that if Royal Mail could modify or change is the route to profitability in letters IMHO. Yes,we could advertise as it puts our brand name out there and we could offer temporary discounts to encourage more letters being delivered. But RM would give their right arm to have a monopoly on letters again. There are loads of DSA providers out there which is evidence that what we are paying them is profitable. I guess some DSA companies are smarter than others but none of them have any intentions of delivering. I noticed one company do actually deliver post - but it's at a massive premium,so that's the workaround for them. Another company processes packages up in bulk for Royal Mail to collect.

I think we should be making moves to stop couriers cherry picking. Remember whistl delivering post in only the most profitable areas? Well,Amazon are doing that with parcel deliveries. How is it fair that we should be delivering their parcels because they can't be bothered to travel or deliver because it's unprofitable for them?


What is stopping R M starting a DSA operation ,set up Two Or Three Sorting Centers & feed the mail into the Delivery System like existing DSA Companies


Yes why can’t they use GLS as a name for a DSA operation . There must be a way around it somehow. Maybe the bosses at the top need to get their thinking caps on pretty sharpish rather than this obsession they have in screwing postman over. This IMO is their biggest flaw - rather than grow the company they’d rather spend time and money on screwing us and monitoring our every move to catch us out. Very odd way to run a company and where they’ve neglected growth in pursuit of harassing the staff they’re now finding the chickens are coming home to roost.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 20:03

Letters are terminally in decline. They have been for years.
There was a time when everyone got quarterly bank statements, a quarterly phone bill, a quarterly electricity bill, a quarterly gas bill, a credit card bill and they paid for everything by cheque. Those days are not coming back.
realising this RM sold off half of their mail centres and got rid of 1000s of staff.
We now no longer have the capability to do all the work.
I doubt RM are going to invest billions in a dying mail stream.
But maybe they will?

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 21:00

GRS wrote:
wallan wrote:
postslippete wrote:
Munchboii wrote:
3.
Modify DSA agreement. Do not allow our competitors access to our network downstream unless we cannot cope with the demand. If we have franking machines available force it through royal mail at our prices. If Whistle/ukmail/DX turn up with flats and letters refuse them and tell them to deliver them themselves. It is clear that the DSA which was set up with the goal of getting our competitors off the ground delivering their OWN mail is being ABUSED and they have no intention of ever delivering it. Let us call their bluff and only deliver what we Frank. If we cannot cope with the demand, outsource the franking to the competitors until the production can be increased to levels we can cope with.


THIS IS HOW YOU SAVE ROYAL MAIL!!!!


This is the biggie that if Royal Mail could modify or change is the route to profitability in letters IMHO. Yes,we could advertise as it puts our brand name out there and we could offer temporary discounts to encourage more letters being delivered. But RM would give their right arm to have a monopoly on letters again. There are loads of DSA providers out there which is evidence that what we are paying them is profitable. I guess some DSA companies are smarter than others but none of them have any intentions of delivering. I noticed one company do actually deliver post - but it's at a massive premium,so that's the workaround for them. Another company processes packages up in bulk for Royal Mail to collect.

I think we should be making moves to stop couriers cherry picking. Remember whistl delivering post in only the most profitable areas? Well,Amazon are doing that with parcel deliveries. How is it fair that we should be delivering their parcels because they can't be bothered to travel or deliver because it's unprofitable for them?


What is stopping R M starting a DSA operation ,set up Two Or Three Sorting Centers & feed the mail into the Delivery System like existing DSA Companies


Yes why can’t they use GLS as a name for a DSA operation . There must be a way around it somehow. Maybe the bosses at the top need to get their thinking caps on pretty sharpish rather than this obsession they have in screwing postman over. This IMO is their biggest flaw - rather than grow the company they’d rather spend time and money on screwing us and monitoring our every move to catch us out. Very odd way to run a company and where they’ve neglected growth in pursuit of harassing the staff they’re now finding the chickens are coming home to roost.


You may find some of the DSA Companies are also part of the GLS Network

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

05 Jul 2020, 23:26

GRS wrote:This IMO is their biggest flaw - rather than grow the company they’d rather spend time and money on screwing us and monitoring our every move to catch us out. Very odd way to run a company and where they’ve neglected growth in pursuit of harassing the staff they’re now finding the chickens are coming home to roost.


It would be really nice if they could stop the harassment. I know it's easy to say 'Just stop it', but that's not going to work. Can't they just set up a way of working where we don't have to be harassed to take more post....

Can't we just set up walks so they are all as equal as we can possibly make them and no matter how busy or light it is we have to deliver everything on our designated walk. So once you are done delivering you can go home. Then we have no harassment by management to take more post and there is no Posties pacing themselves or waiting to go back to the depot. It is stress free. Yes you may have busy days where you are finishing 'late', but you will also get the light days where you can go home early instead of having to wait it out until your finish time. Xmas would obviously involve longer days therefore the Xmas bonus should be a guaranteed £1000 to make up for this busy period.

Benefit for Posties:
-Go to work knowing they aren't going to get harassed to take post they cannot deliver, no extra post, no lapsing.
-They can go home once they have finished.

Benefit for Managers:
-No time wasted harassing Posties.
-No post is left behind. Walks are cleared.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

06 Jul 2020, 07:17

norris9 wrote:Benefit for Managers:
-No time wasted harassing Posties.
-No post is left behind. Walks are cleared.

What happens on a really busy day when you have to be finished to pick the kids up from school/attend a hospital appointment etc?
Don't you think they would make every day too busy and then point at the agreement that says you promised to clear every day?
Piecework/annualised hours - every managers wet dream.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

06 Jul 2020, 14:16

I don't think any of the results of previous negotiations can be considered legally binding except for probably anything that RM wants to happen. I think the wording used at the time left most things open to change or further negotiation and nothing was set in stone.
From what we are hearing locally from DOMs and the next tier up of management it sounds like even if or when the coronavirus is defeated or brought under controlled we will NOT be going back to sharing vans. Given that RM do not want to supply more vans this will be a major change which takes us where RM is rumoured to want to go. In effect it will leave us where we are currently in a mess with posties having their hours moved later into the day if not into the early evening.

There has been differing talk on this forum with some offices not allowing posties to get paid overtime or work their days off and other offices continuing to do so. Up until a couple of weeks ago in our office we could still get paid overtime or work days off but this has now changed and is no longer possible. With staff vacancies seemingly not allowed to be filled and occasional sickness some walks are backing up with days of mail which is detrimental to quality of service.

Pretty much zero chance of RM being allowed to ditch the letters part of the business unless they want to lose the Royal Mail branding and maybe revert to the GLS monicker. As others have stated the obvious remedy to the situation is to change or drop the DSA agreement. It was never fit for purpose and never brought about a fair competition regime but just stole our revenue.
Other than not going back to shared vans the other major changes will either be every other day delivery for letter & small packets or shutting down the operation on Saturdays. Most likely they will go with six day operation for parcels & tracked combined with every other day six day operation for letters & parcels. No voluntary redundancies but relying on 'natural wastage' and not filling vacancies to manage lower staff requirements. Reducing staff costs would more than cover some of demands of the union.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

06 Jul 2020, 15:18

Celgar wrote:Other than not going back to shared vans the other major changes will either be every other day delivery for letter & small packets or shutting down the operation on Saturdays. Most likely they will go with six day operation for parcels & tracked combined with every other day six day operation for letters & parcels. No voluntary redundancies but relying on 'natural wastage' and not filling vacancies to manage lower staff requirements. Reducing staff costs would more than cover some of demands of the union.

I wonder if RM would do away with sequencing if they went every other day for letters, they could potentially axe all iLSMs, IMPs, CFCs, T2Ks and CSSs, making room for every MC to have a PSM. They could have "letter hubs" which would sort and sequence letters covering two or 3 MC areas

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

06 Jul 2020, 18:18

norris9 wrote:
GRS wrote:This IMO is their biggest flaw - rather than grow the company they’d rather spend time and money on screwing us and monitoring our every move to catch us out. Very odd way to run a company and where they’ve neglected growth in pursuit of harassing the staff they’re now finding the chickens are coming home to roost.


It would be really nice if they could stop the harassment. I know it's easy to say 'Just stop it', but that's not going to work. Can't they just set up a way of working where we don't have to be harassed to take more post....

Can't we just set up walks so they are all as equal as we can possibly make them and no matter how busy or light it is we have to deliver everything on our designated walk. So once you are done delivering you can go home. Then we have no harassment by management to take more post and there is no Posties pacing themselves or waiting to go back to the depot. It is stress free. Yes you may have busy days where you are finishing 'late', but you will also get the light days where you can go home early instead of having to wait it out until your finish time. Xmas would obviously involve longer days therefore the Xmas bonus should be a guaranteed £1000 to make up for this busy period.

Benefit for Posties:
-Go to work knowing they aren't going to get harassed to take post they cannot deliver, no extra post, no lapsing.
-They can go home once they have finished.

Benefit for Managers:
-No time wasted harassing Posties.
-No post is left behind. Walks are cleared.


We already had that

It was called Job and Finish

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

06 Jul 2020, 21:24

clashcityrocker wrote:Letters are terminally in decline. They have been for years.
There was a time when everyone got quarterly bank statements, a quarterly phone bill, a quarterly electricity bill, a quarterly gas bill, a credit card bill and they paid for everything by cheque. Those days are not coming back.
realising this RM sold off half of their mail centres and got rid of 1000s of staff.
We now no longer have the capability to do all the work.
I doubt RM are going to invest billions in a dying mail stream.
But maybe they will?


According to the business the lockdown period saw substantial packets being delivered and fewer letters...but less profits?? I know covid19 has thrown a curve ball to the company but its obvious to me (and I repeat) that we only seem to profit right now when we deliver the parcels with the letters. It doesn't take an Einstein to realise that there has been a trend in letter decline. I'm a glass half full sort of a guy and predict that letters will pick up as businesses start to open up in July and we may get a bit of Autumn pressure.

Its fair to say that RM have also been aggressively pursuing the decline of our own letters business for years because deregulation back in 2000 has enabled many DSA providers to come in and cream our profits. This is work that we used to process which has been taken away from us and still we are forced to deliver letters 6 days a week via our USO. Someone on another thread suggested that RM should focus on trying to change DSA companies getting their hands on our business rather than on devaluing the USO, and that makes a lot of sense as it would help keep our jobs. Its one key way of trying to make our letter business more profitable. Will it happen or is there a workaround? Whatever it is, we need to find it.

Investing billions into these parcel hubs and parcel automation is quite high risk if we don't have the necessary capital to do it. Amazon have literally got billions to spare and its the reason why they established a UK delivery network as quick as they have; they really don't need to get involved in letters. Whether we like it or not, our USP over all these couriers is our letters. We may not be able to reverse the trend, but we should at least try and change the regulation. Our government aren't that daft - they know companies like Amazon should be paying hell of a lot more tax as well.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

07 Jul 2020, 08:52

It's time to merge Royal Mail and Parcelforce into one company,it makes no sense to have both companies delivering Parcels.
Most decent size towns and cities will have separate Royal Mail depots and Parcelforce depots when it would be more economical to use one site.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

07 Jul 2020, 17:28

milly wrote:It's time to merge Royal Mail and Parcelforce into one company,it makes no sense to have both companies delivering Parcels.
Most decent size towns and cities will have separate Royal Mail depots and Parcelforce depots when it would be more economical to use one site.


I work in Rotherham Parcelforce we cover Sheffield Barnsley Doncaster Rotherham Peak District Wakefield Huddersfield Chesterfield Worksop Scunthorpe Goole Grimsby and anywhere in between from the one depot. We also have a Royal Mail temporary sorting area in the depot as well.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

08 Jul 2020, 07:32

iainwilson wrote:
milly wrote:It's time to merge Royal Mail and Parcelforce into one company,it makes no sense to have both companies delivering Parcels.
Most decent size towns and cities will have separate Royal Mail depots and Parcelforce depots when it would be more economical to use one site.


I work in Rotherham Parcelforce we cover Sheffield Barnsley Doncaster Rotherham Peak District Wakefield Huddersfield Chesterfield Worksop Scunthorpe Goole Grimsby and anywhere in between from the one depot. We also have a Royal Mail temporary sorting area in the depot as well.


I am sure it would be much cheaper to absorb all of that work into the local DO's for delivery.

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

08 Jul 2020, 08:52

milly wrote:
iainwilson wrote:
milly wrote:It's time to merge Royal Mail and Parcelforce into one company,it makes no sense to have both companies delivering Parcels.
Most decent size towns and cities will have separate Royal Mail depots and Parcelforce depots when it would be more economical to use one site.


I work in Rotherham Parcelforce we cover Sheffield Barnsley Doncaster Rotherham Peak District Wakefield Huddersfield Chesterfield Worksop Scunthorpe Goole Grimsby and anywhere in between from the one depot. We also have a Royal Mail temporary sorting area in the depot as well.


I am sure it would be much cheaper to absorb all of that work into the local DO's for delivery.

You wouldn’t have the room and the vans would need to be much larger.There would be collection to consider as well. My local Parcelforce depot has a few 40 ton trucks on premises. I’m sure they wouldn’t fit in the typical d/o

Joint statement now let's get into the real negotiations

08 Jul 2020, 09:51

deltaforce wrote:
milly wrote:
iainwilson wrote:
milly wrote:It's time to merge Royal Mail and Parcelforce into one company,it makes no sense to have both companies delivering Parcels.
Most decent size towns and cities will have separate Royal Mail depots and Parcelforce depots when it would be more economical to use one site.


I work in Rotherham Parcelforce we cover Sheffield Barnsley Doncaster Rotherham Peak District Wakefield Huddersfield Chesterfield Worksop Scunthorpe Goole Grimsby and anywhere in between from the one depot. We also have a Royal Mail temporary sorting area in the depot as well.


I am sure it would be much cheaper to absorb all of that work into the local DO's for delivery.

You wouldn’t have the room and the vans would need to be much larger.There would be collection to consider as well. My local Parcelforce depot has a few 40 ton trucks on premises. I’m sure they wouldn’t fit in the typical d/o


The Parcels would be unloaded from the 40 tonne vehicle into the 7.5tonne vehicles then onward to the various DO's, this is what happens in my office.
As for deliveries Royal Mail would have to buy more Sprinters but they would also be using Parcelforce's as well if we were to amalgamate.
When we get back to normal and have two people to a van it would be far easier to deliver large parcels between two people.
I work on collections and quite often Parcelforce don't even bother picking up from Post Offices(quite often Parcels are not picked up for a few days) I could easily take them as I would usually have space in my van for them.

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