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Job Losses and the end of USO

17 Sep 2019, 19:54

When we are threatened with Job losses then how does this work? Our meeting last week suggested the worse case scenario RM and Rico wants to get rid of 20,000 jobs plus axe a Tuesday delivery (although im not sure if the latter is just talk or actually realistically a possibility). My questions are who would be the likely people threatened for job losses? Full timers? Last in first out? First in first out? Also if the worse case scenario came and we lost a Tuesday delivery then would the full timers be on 4 longer days or would this day be everyone's day off?

Job Losses and the end of USO

17 Sep 2019, 20:28

postiewhite wrote:When we are threatened with Job losses then how does this work? Our meeting last week suggested the worse case scenario RM and Rico wants to get rid of 20,000 jobs plus axe a Tuesday delivery (although im not sure if the latter is just talk or actually realistically a possibility). My questions are who would be the likely people threatened for job losses? Full timers? Last in first out? First in first out? Also if the worse case scenario came and we lost a Tuesday delivery then would the full timers be on 4 longer days or would this day be everyone's day off?



They could take a number of approaches.

Skills based. Non-drivers made redundant. - A serious possibility in my view. Most non-drivers are pretty senior and so prime targets.
Compulsory. Last in, first out. - Unlikely because all these people are cheap in terms of pensions.
Voluntary. Seniority-based. Attractive to RM because the more senior folk are more expensive for them in terms of pension, holiday entitlement, etc. However the terms offered are likely to be seen as poor by most candidates, I expect.

If a day is dropped from general delivery - ie non packets/specials (BIG if . . . but not incredible) then I'd expect full timers would work 5/7. However I'd fully expect the working week to become over 7 days with Sundays and one other day being packets/specials only. However just as credible would be a Mon-Sat alternate day delivery system with Sunday being packets/specials only. Then you'd still have a rotating day off, which is something RM seem to like very much.

A longer working day is less credible as there will very likely be increasingly less work inside and increasing delivery spans to compensate will be problematic for a number of reasons, not least the fact that most staff would struggle to do a week of 6 hour plus delivery spans.

Job Losses and the end of USO

17 Sep 2019, 20:49

A large chunk of what we send out to the local DOs as small packets are technically large letters

Job Losses and the end of USO

17 Sep 2019, 20:59

If i was pt and no long in door id be keeping an eye out for something else just in case .

Job Losses and the end of USO

17 Sep 2019, 21:21

DGH wrote:
postiewhite wrote:When we are threatened with Job losses then how does this work? Our meeting last week suggested the worse case scenario RM and Rico wants to get rid of 20,000 jobs plus axe a Tuesday delivery (although im not sure if the latter is just talk or actually realistically a possibility). My questions are who would be the likely people threatened for job losses? Full timers? Last in first out? First in first out? Also if the worse case scenario came and we lost a Tuesday delivery then would the full timers be on 4 longer days or would this day be everyone's day off?



They could take a number of approaches.

Skills based. Non-drivers made redundant. - A serious possibility in my view. Most non-drivers are pretty senior and so prime targets.
Compulsory. Last in, first out. - Unlikely because all these people are cheap in terms of pensions.
Voluntary. Seniority-based. Attractive to RM because the more senior folk are more expensive for them in terms of pension, holiday entitlement, etc. However the terms offered are likely to be seen as poor by most candidates, I expect.

If a day is dropped from general delivery - ie non packets/specials (BIG if . . . but not incredible) then I'd expect full timers would work 5/7. However I'd fully expect the working week to become over 7 days with Sundays and one other day being packets/specials only. However just as credible would be a Mon-Sat alternate day delivery system with Sunday being packets/specials only. Then you'd still have a rotating day off, which is something RM seem to like very much.

A longer working day is less credible as there will very likely be increasingly less work inside and increasing delivery spans to compensate will be problematic for a number of reasons, not least the fact that most staff would struggle to do a week of 6 hour plus delivery spans.


Making all the non drivers redundant would cost them an absolute fortune in redundancy packages

Job Losses and the end of USO

17 Sep 2019, 21:24

Chelseablue wrote:If i was pt and no long in door id be keeping an eye out for something else just in case .


I would've thought full time positions would be under great threat. All new positions advertised are now PT.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 08:42

If most of Europe are only delivering 5 days a week, mon-fri . cant see us being kept at 6 days.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 08:55

DGH wrote:They could take a number of approaches.

Skills based. Non-drivers made redundant. - A serious possibility in my view. Most non-drivers are pretty senior and so prime targets.
Compulsory. Last in, first out. - Unlikely because all these people are cheap in terms of pensions.
Voluntary. Seniority-based. Attractive to RM because the more senior folk are more expensive for them in terms of pension, holiday entitlement, etc. However the terms offered are likely to be seen as poor by most candidates, I expect.

If a day is dropped from general delivery - ie non packets/specials (BIG if . . . but not incredible) then I'd expect full timers would work 5/7. However I'd fully expect the working week to become over 7 days with Sundays and one other day being packets/specials only. However just as credible would be a Mon-Sat alternate day delivery system with Sunday being packets/specials only. Then you'd still have a rotating day off, which is something RM seem to like very much.

A longer working day is less credible as there will very likely be increasingly less work inside and increasing delivery spans to compensate will be problematic for a number of reasons, not least the fact that most staff would struggle to do a week of 6 hour plus delivery spans.


You've forgotten natural wastage of senior staff with retirement and only replacing on inferior contracts and disciplinary sackings.

A logical approach at present would be Monday - Friday letters/packets etc because firms would not be impressed with no letter mail on certain days during the week. With parcels, specials and tracked only deliveries on a Saturday and possibly Sunday's depending on the need for it if numbers continue to climb.

Either way going by past ideas this company has had I doubt what they come up with at the top will be anything like it eventually becomes at the bottom for frontline staff.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 10:47

Sugar wrote:
DGH wrote:They could take a number of approaches.

Skills based. Non-drivers made redundant. - A serious possibility in my view. Most non-drivers are pretty senior and so prime targets.
Compulsory. Last in, first out. - Unlikely because all these people are cheap in terms of pensions.
Voluntary. Seniority-based. Attractive to RM because the more senior folk are more expensive for them in terms of pension, holiday entitlement, etc. However the terms offered are likely to be seen as poor by most candidates, I expect.

If a day is dropped from general delivery - ie non packets/specials (BIG if . . . but not incredible) then I'd expect full timers would work 5/7. However I'd fully expect the working week to become over 7 days with Sundays and one other day being packets/specials only. However just as credible would be a Mon-Sat alternate day delivery system with Sunday being packets/specials only. Then you'd still have a rotating day off, which is something RM seem to like very much.

A longer working day is less credible as there will very likely be increasingly less work inside and increasing delivery spans to compensate will be problematic for a number of reasons, not least the fact that most staff would struggle to do a week of 6 hour plus delivery spans.


You've forgotten natural wastage of senior staff with retirement and only replacing on inferior contracts and disciplinary sackings.

A logical approach at present would be Monday - Friday letters/packets etc because firms would not be impressed with no letter mail on certain days during the week. With parcels, specials and tracked only deliveries on a Saturday and possibly Sunday's depending on the need for it if numbers continue to climb.

Either way going by past ideas this company has had I doubt what they come up with at the top will be anything like it eventually becomes at the bottom for frontline staff.

But would you trust the Cwu to be honest and tell us if the company were proposing mon/fri , I don’t as they know it would be popular with the workforce.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 14:26

The company and union work on a seniority basis for everything else so they cant really change to last in first out now it suits them.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 15:02

leolion855 wrote:The company and union work on a seniority basis for everything else so they cant really change to last in first out now it suits them.


by this logic, then the senior people would remain in their jobs, i dont see a contradiction.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 16:22

The USO will go it has to.

We are not a service anymore and we must like so.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 16:46

The business 'believes' it can lose 5000 jobs a year through natural wastage which is about normal for a business this size.

This would give them their 20,000 without expensive redundancies or confrontation.

The problem with this plan is that you don't always lose them from the places you need to so I can see new starts and reserves being bounced about from unit to unit to balance the resourcing.

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 19:05

leolion855 wrote:The company and union work on a seniority basis for everything else so they cant really change to last in first out now it suits them.

You never thought that through did you :hmmmm

Job Losses and the end of USO

18 Sep 2019, 19:23

Woody Guthrie wrote:The business 'believes' it can lose 5000 jobs a year through natural wastage which is about normal for a business this size.

This would give them their 20,000 without expensive redundancies or confrontation.

The problem with this plan is that you don't always lose them from the places you need to so I can see new starts and reserves being bounced about from unit to unit to balance the resourcing.


But in four years.

They'll want to shed 20 000 jobs well inside two years.

i should think Rico would like to transform the business beyond recognition within 5 years. That'll involve more than 20 000 jobs going (albeit some of that might be by a general reduction in hours achieved by, for instance, abolishing paid breaks). And it won't just be new starters and reserves being 'bounced around'. He's not like the other CEO's we've had.

Job Losses and the end of USO

19 Sep 2019, 15:47

chickenwittle wrote:But would you trust the Cwu to be honest and tell us if the company were proposing mon/fri , I don’t as they know it would be popular with the workforce.


Same as you, No, because as you say it would be popular with a lot of the workforce (me included) and the CWU would panic and think it would just lead to a lot job losses with the lack of cover needed for days out during the week. TBH a lot of those could be taken up with the new LAT duties needed but can't see the union seeing that straight off the bat.

mattjo1@talktalk.net wrote:The USO will go it has to.


It will but its how its done is the issue. RM will more than likely go for it with a big axe and the union will be more long winded about it. Frontline staff will have a better idea of how it could be done but neither the RM or CWU will properly listen to them going by past experiences.

Job Losses and the end of USO

19 Sep 2019, 16:32

Sugar wrote:
chickenwittle wrote:But would you trust the Cwu to be honest and tell us if the company were proposing mon/fri , I don’t as they know it would be popular with the workforce.


Same as you, No, because as you say it would be popular with a lot of the workforce (me included) and the CWU would panic and think it would just lead to a lot job losses with the lack of cover needed for days out during the week. TBH a lot of those could be taken up with the new LAT duties needed but can't see the union seeing that straight off the bat.

mattjo1@talktalk.net wrote:The USO will go it has to.


It will but its how its done is the issue. RM will more than likely go for it with a big axe and the union will be more long winded about it. Frontline staff will have a better idea of how it could be done but neither the RM or CWU will properly listen to them going by past experiences.



Why does USO have to go ? It may be a hinderance to Royal Mail management but its not them deciding whether it goes or not. is it not OFCOM does that ?

Job Losses and the end of USO

19 Sep 2019, 16:52

hero22 wrote:
Sugar wrote:
chickenwittle wrote:But would you trust the Cwu to be honest and tell us if the company were proposing mon/fri , I don’t as they know it would be popular with the workforce.


Same as you, No, because as you say it would be popular with a lot of the workforce (me included) and the CWU would panic and think it would just lead to a lot job losses with the lack of cover needed for days out during the week. TBH a lot of those could be taken up with the new LAT duties needed but can't see the union seeing that straight off the bat.

mattjo1@talktalk.net wrote:The USO will go it has to.


It will but its how its done is the issue. RM will more than likely go for it with a big axe and the union will be more long winded about it. Frontline staff will have a better idea of how it could be done but neither the RM or CWU will properly listen to them going by past experiences.



Why does USO have to go ? It may be a hinderance to Royal Mail management but its not them deciding whether it goes or not. is it not OFCOM does that ?



Rico has already gone to parliament to discuss it, it will go.

Job Losses and the end of USO

19 Sep 2019, 19:24

mattjo1@talktalk.net wrote:Rico has already gone to parliament to discuss it, it will go.


Please flesh out what you mean by "it will go".

The USO is a requirement of the Universal Service provider (i.e. Royal Mail). This is enshrined in law, the mechanism for changing the terms of the USO, is via OFCOM reviews, in which they can recommend to the secretary of state to change the minimum requirements. The 6 days a week service is part of this, as is the standard price for anywhere in the UK, and access to collection services 6 days a week.

Rico going to parliament doesn't do much at all. OFCOM is the regulator, it has a strict remit to maintain the sustainability of the universal service.

There is a way to get out of the USO completely, and that is to stop being the Universal Service provider, only in those circumstances could you say the USO would be "gone from Royal Mail".

I don't know how many times I will have to say it, but while we're a private company, we're still regulated like a public service. And function like one, we provide a basic public service, in which the minimum requirements are set by the Postal Services Act 2011.

Below is the process for changing those:


34Review of minimum requirements

(1)OFCOM may from time to time review the extent to which the provision made by section 31 reflects the reasonable needs of the users of postal services provided in the United Kingdom.

(2)A review under subsection (1) may, in particular, consider whether the requirements imposed by that section could be altered so as better to reflect those needs.

(3)OFCOM must send a copy of each review under subsection (1) to the Secretary of State.

(4)The Secretary of State may at any time direct OFCOM to carry out a review under subsection (1).

(5)Where OFCOM have carried out a review under subsection (1), the Secretary of State may by order amend section 31.

(6)The provision that may be made by an order under subsection (5) does not include the making of different provision in relation to different places in the United Kingdom.

(7)An order under subsection (5)—

(a)is subject to affirmative resolution procedure, and

(b)may include such amendments of this Part as the Secretary of State considers necessary or expedient in consequence of any provision made by the order.


And here are the minimum requirements as they stand today:


31Minimum requirements

This section sets out the services that must, as a minimum, be included in a universal postal service.

Requirement 1: delivery of letters or other postal packets
(1)

At least one delivery of letters every Monday to Saturday—
(a)

to the home or premises of every individual or other person in the United Kingdom, or
(b)

to such identifiable points for the delivery of postal packets as OFCOM may approve.
(2)

At least one delivery of other postal packets every Monday to Friday to the places within paragraph (1)(a) or (b).
(3)

The references in this requirement to the delivery of letters or other postal packets include the delivery of packets posted outside the United Kingdom.

Requirement 2: collection of letters or other postal packets
(1)

At least one collection of letters every Monday to Saturday from every access point in the United Kingdom used for the purpose of receiving postal packets, or any class of them, for onwards transmission in connection with the provision of a universal postal service.
(2)

At least one collection of other postal packets every Monday to Friday from every access point in the United Kingdom used for that purpose.
(3)

The references in this requirement to the onwards transmission of letters or other postal packets include their onwards transmission to places outside the United Kingdom.

Requirement 3: service at affordable prices in accordance with uniform public tariff
(1)

A service of conveying postal packets from one place to another by post (including the incidental services of receiving, collecting, sorting and delivering them) at affordable prices determined in accordance with a public tariff which is uniform throughout the United Kingdom.
(2)

The reference in this requirement to conveying postal packets from one place to another includes conveying them to places outside the United Kingdom.

Requirement 4: registered items service

A registered items service at affordable prices determined in accordance with a public tariff which is uniform throughout the United Kingdom.

Requirement 5: insured items service

An insured items service at affordable prices determined in accordance with a public tariff which is uniform throughout the United Kingdom.

Requirement 6: services to blind or partially sighted

The provision free of charge of such postal services as are specified in the universal postal service order to such descriptions of blind or partially sighted persons as are so specified.

Requirement 7: legislative petitions and addresses

A service of conveying free of charge qualifying legislative petitions and addresses.

Job Losses and the end of USO

20 Sep 2019, 09:07

Murdoch wrote: Please flesh out what you mean by "it will go".

The USO is a requirement of the Universal Service provider (i.e. Royal Mail). This is enshrined in law, the mechanism for changing the terms of the USO, is via OFCOM reviews, in which they can recommend to the secretary of state to change the minimum requirements. The 6 days a week service is part of this, as is the standard price for anywhere in the UK, and access to collection services 6 days a week.

Rico going to parliament doesn't do much at all. OFCOM is the regulator, it has a strict remit to maintain the sustainability of the universal service.

There is a way to get out of the USO completely, and that is to stop being the Universal Service provider, only in those circumstances could you say the USO would be "gone from Royal Mail".

I don't know how many times I will have to say it, but while we're a private company, we're still regulated like a public service. And function like one, we provide a basic public service, in which the minimum requirements are set by the Postal Services Act 2011.


It will be argued that the continual decline in letter mail can't sustain a six day a week USO for letters. We'll end up moving to the Dutch model in the not so distant future and I think we all know that.

Let's be honest there was a humongous balls up when the postal market was opened up like it was. You can't have a level playing field when there is only one major company delivering lettered mail. If a company collected the mail then they should have been the ones to deliver it. Not the chaos that's downstream access that we know the company had its hands tied with how much they could charge. It was bound to fail and it has. TNT delivering mail didn't last 12 months IIRC.

Could the union and company done more? Probably but we'll never know.

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