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Postal peg

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Norfolk 'N' Chance
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Norfolk 'N' Chance »

deeteeny wrote:
03 Sep 2021, 15:59
Hello
I am a retired Crown Prosecutor with a continuing interest in dangerous dogs and have written and broadcast about this topic, including an article in Archbold News, the update journal that accompanies the Crown Court procedural guide called Archbold. I have been asked to write a note about a recent case involving a postman whose finger was bitten when he pushed mail through a letter box and a dog in the house bit his hand. He had been issued with a postal peg, and I believe these were introduced for postal workers in 2011, so they aren't new. However this postman wasn't using the peg although the dog had barked before he pushed the mail through the letter box. A conversation with a local postie confirms that use is intermittent. Why would that be? Are they only useful for small envelopes?
deeteeny

It would be interesting from your experience as to whether in a similar case (A hypothetical one), if a postperson was bitten by a dog or even cat and had not been using the postal peg, but one had been issued to him/her, would there be a good chance that the defendant (RM) could use the defence of "contributory negligence" i.e. I'm thinking they could reasonably argue that the Safe System Of Work was not followed. Harsh I know, but as prosecutor id be interested in your views if you could care to share or hypothesize.

Similarly I wondered if in such a case RM could put forward the argument of Volenti non fit injuria as by not using the peg the postperson knew the risk and seemingly volunteered to accept it? From my limited knowledge, my understanding is that in the world of H&S at work this is seldom if ever accepted as a defence?

If however no peg had been issued to the injured postperson or there is no record of one being issued, then I would suspect that would add more weight to the claim by the injured party.

Certainly an interesting subject!

On a final point, I have some large white Aylesbury ducks, who wander around my garden eating slugs etc. On occasions I've had a few posties think that they were geese and not want to get out of their van. I know geese can be very territorial, so am all for Dynamic on site risk assessment when staff make deliveries, so theres probably a lot of animal related hazards out there.

Regards

Norfolk N Chance

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Re: Postal peg

Post by POSTMAN »

ssdd wrote:
07 Sep 2021, 16:59
clashcityrocker wrote:
07 Sep 2021, 16:54
A dog tried to bite me through the cat flap last week.
I actually remember a door I delivered to had a dog poke it's head through, but it was quite a big head, and filled the full flap. It actually looked quite peaceful...like it was having a little rest.
The things I remember on this site...
Image
And from our resident Stormproof, where is she?
Forward to 30 secs.
I Wrote
It's good to get these types of threads, the ridiculous my manager said bollox so we can reassure ourselves that while the world is falling apart, Royal Mail managers are still being the low-life C***S they have always been.
My BFF Clash
The daily grind of having to argue your case with an intellectual pigmy of a line manager is physically and emotionally draining.
ssdd
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Re: Postal peg

Post by ssdd »

Great response Norfolk! I like that. The question, for me, remains..."Do you have to use the postal peg for every door?".
You may very well check the walk log and find animal hazards therein, but what about the ones you don't know? Now, if you can hear an animal, then you would use your better judgement. But oftentimes there are animals you can't hear.
To me, the only way to negate any such hazards would be to use the postal peg for every letterbox. But again, impractical. And again, no use against cats. I know, I've been caught by more than one cat. And there was no indication in the walk log. Where does the responsibility lie if there is no record in the walk log? Surely not with the Postie, who could be covering...
ssdd
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Re: Postal peg

Post by ssdd »

Great POSTMAN! Brings it to life! Except in the cat one they're not using the peg! :chuckle
Pumpernickel
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Pumpernickel »

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is the propensity of the peg in breaking.

My first broke around the 3rd or 4th time I used it (as in the 3rd or 4th letterbox I pushed it into).
My second was snatched by a dog (we're only supposed to be issued one, so when it meets its purpose you're left without for the rest of the day).
The third, again, snapped after a small number of uses.
I haven't bothered to get a 4th (I went through the 3 in a matter of weeks).

I'm not sure if the breakages are down to heavily bristled letterboxes, stiff inner letterbox flaps, or what. They really don't last though in my experience, alongside the fact they are cumbersome to use as intended.
ssdd
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Re: Postal peg

Post by ssdd »

Pumpernickel wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:03
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is the propensity of the peg in breaking.

My first broke around the 3rd or 4th time I used it (as in the 3rd or 4th letterbox I pushed it into).
My second was snatched by a dog (we're only supposed to be issued one, so when it meets its purpose you're left without for the rest of the day).
The third, again, snapped after a small number of uses.
I haven't bothered to get a 4th (I went through the 3 in a matter of weeks).

I'm not sure if the breakages are down to heavily bristled letterboxes, stiff inner letterbox flaps, or what. They really don't last though in my experience, alongside the fact they are cumbersome to use as intended.
I had a rather large Alsatian rip the peg from my hand right through the letterbox once. I know some of the newer letterboxes are very stiff and possibly may break the peg. I haven't actually used my peg on these newer style letterboxes. Were you intending to use the peg on every letterbox?
Pumpernickel
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Pumpernickel »

ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:19

I had a rather large Alsatian rip the peg from my hand right through the letterbox once. I know some of the newer letterboxes are very stiff and possibly may break the peg. I haven't actually used my peg on these newer style letterboxes. Were you intending to use the peg on every letterbox?
I started using one after a dog nearly ripped my finger off, and honestly I found it useless as a long term thing.

I was using them just on letterboxes where I either knew there was a dog through experience, or heard the thing behind the door. Very quickly I ended up with no peg, bearing in mind there was only 1 taken by a dog. The third peg I got from the office in the morning was in 3 pieces within hours (it didn't even last a day).
ssdd
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Re: Postal peg

Post by ssdd »

Pumpernickel wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:24
ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:19

I had a rather large Alsatian rip the peg from my hand right through the letterbox once. I know some of the newer letterboxes are very stiff and possibly may break the peg. I haven't actually used my peg on these newer style letterboxes. Were you intending to use the peg on every letterbox?
I started using one after a dog nearly ripped my finger off, and honestly I found it useless as a long term thing.

I was using them just on letterboxes where I either knew there was a dog through experience, or heard the thing behind the door. Very quickly I ended up with no peg, bearing in mind there was only 1 taken by a dog. The third peg I got from the office in the morning was in 3 pieces within hours (it didn't even last a day).
It is an interesting subject, as Norfolk said above. With dog ownership on the rise along with attacks on Posties, through the letterbox or otherwise, how do you reduce these hazards?
Pumpernickel
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Pumpernickel »

ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:34

It is an interesting debate, as Norfolk said above. With dog ownership on the rise along with attacks on Posties, through the letterbox or otherwise, how do you reduce these hazards?
By teaching dog owners to keep their dog away from the access points we use, or by owners providing some other access point. Either they make sure the dog can't get to the letterbox (or to places where we may reasonably be), or they put a postbox outside the dogs access.

Owners have the responsibility more than anyone else, and the walk logs don't mean a great deal when people move or get a new dog. We can't be perfectly informed, it takes someones experience and active reporting to have a dog listed in the walk log, so those logs aren't a complete source of information for reserves and such.
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Re: Postal peg

Post by ssdd »

Pumpernickel wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:44
ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:34

It is an interesting debate, as Norfolk said above. With dog ownership on the rise along with attacks on Posties, through the letterbox or otherwise, how do you reduce these hazards?
By teaching dog owners to keep their dog away from the access points we use, or by owners providing some other access point. Either they make sure the dog can't get to the letterbox (or to places where we may reasonably be), or they put a postbox outside the dogs access.

Owners have the responsibility more than anyone else, and the walk logs don't mean a great deal when people move or get a new dog. We can't be perfectly informed, it takes someones experience and active reporting to have a dog listed in the walk log, so those logs aren't a complete source of information for reserves and such.
That's a great answer. :thumbup
Pumpernickel
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Pumpernickel »

ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:53

That's a great answer. :thumbup
Thanks, but I think it's the only answer.

I don't see how RM can reasonably be held responsible for private citizens dogs whether they are aware of them or not. I don't see how we posties should take any blame when we get caught out given we can't be perfectly informed and we're on the dogs territory.

The owner knows they have a dog, and they know they get post (or expect parcels, etc). They have the most complete information for their dog, property, letterbox and post: it is entirely on those owners to keep us separate.
ssdd
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Re: Postal peg

Post by ssdd »

Pumpernickel wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 01:06
ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 00:53

That's a great answer. :thumbup
Thanks, but I think it's the only answer.

I don't see how RM can reasonably be held responsible for private citizens dogs whether they are aware of them or not. I don't see how we posties should take any blame when we get caught out given we can't be perfectly informed and we're on the dogs territory.

The owner knows they have a dog, and they know they get post (or expect parcels, etc). They have the most complete information for their dog, property, letterbox and post: it is entirely on those owners to keep us separate.
I totally agree with you Pumpernickel, so how could that be made to happen?
Pumpernickel
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Pumpernickel »

ssdd wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 01:12

I totally agree with you Pumpernickel, so how could that be made to happen?
By informing them of their responsibilities and the potential consequences. Could come through a D2D or through advertising (could even be a collaborative campaign between RM and other companies such as Amazon, UPS, etc). I don't know how useful this may be though given how many people are likely to ignore it. Other than that, management should (IMO) support staff as best they can when something happens.

So far as I'm aware there's currently the risk of a 5 year prison term along with destruction of the dog (dogs dangerously out of control). The owner doesn't even need to be home to be held responsible so long as either their action, or lack of action, caused the incident.

The only extra thing RM could possibly add IMO is a blacklist of properties where dog attacks have occurred, until the owner proves they have taken appropriate measures and they are removed from said blacklist (though they may do something vaguely similar already on an ad-hoc basis).
Norfolk 'N' Chance
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Norfolk 'N' Chance »

[/quote]

I don't see how RM can reasonably be held responsible for private citizens dogs whether they are aware of them or not. I don't see how we posties should take any blame when we get caught out given we can't be perfectly informed and we're on the dogs territory.

The owner knows they have a dog, and they know they get post (or expect parcels, etc). They have the most complete information for their dog, property, letterbox and post: it is entirely on those owners to keep us separate.
[/quote]

I agree, directly responsible no as RM dont own the dogs. However RM are vicariously liable for the situation by virtue of you being an employee at work. (Maybe our prosecuter friend would care to interject on this point?)

Without meaning to purposely take the discussion in another direction, the responses given by ssdd, pumpernickle and others suggest that the "postal peg" as currently issued is not actually fit for purpose anyway. That is a worry and to my mind could only further bolster any individuals claim.
By its very nature the peg is a control measure, arising out of the risk assessment from dog/animal injuries. It is an engineering control and like any hard control measure, e.g. PPE it must be fit for purpose and designed/manufacturered so it in itself is free from defect that could foreseeably add further injury or harm.

As an outsider (yes I repeat this often, as I'm yet to get lucky and get an RM job), I would have expected the Postal Peg to have a documented assessment (as required by the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations) - if properly assessed then the known issue of breaking should/could have been identified. - Taking this to its ultimate conclusion. From the single photograph shown it looks like the red peg could be made from an Arcylic/Perspex type of thermoplastic that has been cut and then heated and bent over on itself to form a tong. If so this is a problematic material for the use to which it is being deployed. Firstly it does not like cold temperatures and also it has poorer impact resistance to other plastics such as MDPL polyproplyene. My materials science and polymer chemistry is a bit lacking, but surely it would be far better to have a hard wearing plastic like Nylon 11 or maybe a glass fibre reinforced material for the pegs.

I did a quick trawl on the net and its possible that RM is buying in these pegs from a company called Lexiprint. Posing as a potential customer I have emailed them for a product data sheet to enquire about the materials used in its construction. - if i get a reply I''l update everyone.

Regards Norfolk N Chance
Pumpernickel
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Re: Postal peg

Post by Pumpernickel »

Norfolk 'N' Chance wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 09:22

I agree, directly responsible no as RM dont own the dogs. However RM are vicariously liable for the situation by virtue of you being an employee at work. (Maybe our prosecuter friend would care to interject on this point?)

Without meaning to purposely take the discussion in another direction, the responses given by ssdd, pumpernickle and others suggest that the "postal peg" as currently issued is not actually fit for purpose anyway. That is a worry and to my mind could only further bolster any individuals claim.
By its very nature the peg is a control measure, arising out of the risk assessment from dog/animal injuries. It is an engineering control and like any hard control measure, e.g. PPE it must be fit for purpose and designed/manufacturered so it in itself is free from defect that could foreseeably add further injury or harm.

As an outsider (yes I repeat this often, as I'm yet to get lucky and get an RM job), I would have expected the Postal Peg to have a documented assessment (as required by the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations) - if properly assessed then the known issue of breaking should/could have been identified. - Taking this to its ultimate conclusion. From the single photograph shown it looks like the red peg could be made from an Arcylic/Perspex type of thermoplastic that has been cut and then heated and bent over on itself to form a tong. If so this is a problematic material for the use to which it is being deployed. Firstly it does not like cold temperatures and also it has poorer impact resistance to other plastics such as MDPL polyproplyene. My materials science and polymer chemistry is a bit lacking, but surely it would be far better to have a hard wearing plastic like Nylon 11 or maybe a glass fibre reinforced material for the pegs.

I did a quick trawl on the net and its possible that RM is buying in these pegs from a company called Lexiprint. Posing as a potential customer I have emailed them for a product data sheet to enquire about the materials used in its construction. - if i get a reply I''l update everyone.

Regards Norfolk N Chance
Regarding your first point, there is a difference between responsibility and liability. RM have a duty to do what they reasonably can, but what can they reasonably do about private citizens they have no control over? (aside from refusing service after an incident until things are deemed safe: I gather they investigate dog attacks and such, visit the owners for a chat, etc bearing in mind that the police are also compelled to visit the scene of any known dog attack).

Regarding the peg itself: "PPE it must be fit for purpose and designed/manufacturered so it in itself is free from defect that could foreseeably add further injury or harm": none of the breakages I had would cause me to be injured in the slightest, they just leave you with an unusable peg thus having to badger the manager to rummage around for a new peg even though they only gave you one yesterday...

It probably is a materials issue. If you actually use them you quickly see cracks developing on both tongues at the split point (where the handle portion ends). It's been a long time since I used one though, and I have no idea what season we were in when those breakages I experienced occurred (could well have been cold/winter, thus making them more likely to break).

Just looked at that manufacturers site, and note the tag line "let him have it!". In cases of a dog taking it, what use is it being issued a single peg? And how reasonable is it for us to be carrying multiple of the things while we're already loaded up with forms, pens, PDA, mail, phone, mask, keys, etc...
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