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ANNOUNCEMENT CWU : We have announced an industrial action ballot timetable in Royal Mail group - ballot papers will be dispatched on 24th September if no agreement is reached before then. HERE


07 Mar 2007, 15:40

Now aint this a nice little game of find the Fozzieboy/girl. :shock: Just like that kids game (GUESS WHO) My little bro had it and hours of rained off afternoons we spent flicking the pictures over shouting "U F**KIN CHEATING C**T I SAID HIM/HER" Now this forum takes me back 20 odd years :roll: Now fozzie let me start, "have you blue eyes?" have you brown hair?" have you a smug grin on your face as WE try and guess your little game?" :wink: OR have you come on this site to take the piss and drop little time bombs of info that i agree some are very interesting and some just RM bull... But over all the insight into RM and Big AL's Inside leg measurements and Lil Adam's breakfast is all just a chance for you to show your knowledge and your high flying??? As i said before i dont begrudge anyone geting on in RM or any other industry,(I might have to look at our rivals TNT or Krautpost for a job) as im still being bullied and sculdugery put apon me from RM and they want me out!!!
So if i have to be nice to you now fozzie SIR i might be asking for a job soon mate old chum!! :Very Happy But then again i couldnt see myself arse licking or playing games, Like "GUESS WHO." as for you will tell us on here who u are when you leave your post>.. I dont give a flying f**k!! Good luck 2 ya fella...



Where's the sportsmanship?

07 Mar 2007, 15:53

I see your point and almost apologise for coming across like some upstart highflying wank*r.

If I was you I wouldn't be worrying too much about who I am and whether you would ever have to work for me or vice versa for that matter.

As for RM bull, well that might be part of the reason why I left, sometimes you end up believing your own press even though it has been spun more times than a tumble drier. Now where else has that happened?

From all the people I've spoken to it seems no-one quite know's where things are going to end up. Much depends on how successfull RM at lobbying the DTI and Postcomm, and how good the competition are at lobbying postcomm postwatch and businesses.

I gave up a long time ago now saying to posties that yeah this is going to happen and when, because you end up looking like a prat and they don't believe what you say anymore.

As you said Tommo the best thing you lot can do is stick together, but don't be surprised if there is another national strike around the corner. The problem is that will play into the competitors hands and businesses will swap over. I have no easy answer on how to tackle the inevitable downsizing and towards some form of privatisation.



Nice 1 Fozzie. And ya Nanny?? (middleclass me thinks)NANNY?

07 Mar 2007, 16:29

Fozz Or Ozzie or OHHHH :d'oh! f**k IT whatsa ya name lad??? Anyway!!!

I would like your opinion on a theory of something i heard from a CWU rep and agree wholeheartedly with..

A race to the bottom!!! I have said this in a post before and i think as u posted The hand over of business and the affect a national strike will have.. I agree with you that in the long run it will hit RM and Us the workers Hardest.. So what does RM do??? Ohhh yeh Bully, harrass, be totally out of order, as it seems in Big daves case in Burslem and many others. So if A strike is the last thing we all want and i stand by this.. WHY OH WHY DO RM push us down this road?? NO one in there right mind want to lose ££££ and all the grief that goes with it.. RM seem to be the onlY instagators in this and rail road us in to the STRIKE. What other kind of talks can we have with over jelous nasty non caring people like the OLD ST BRIGADE!!! OUR UNION has its hands tied and i feel has lost alot of support from local D.O's and rural areas.

Im proud of being in OUR UNION but want more information from headquarters as i dont think we do.. The reason i feel lack of support is a mix of all the bullying and lack of action from headquarters and the amount of New people who dont know or care about a union.. This race will be won By RM so as you put it "downsizing and some form of privatisation"comes 2 fruit. (for the fat cats) Buy cheap sell dear. This way they drive down the worth of RM Group PLC and build again after all the current workers are on the scrap heap... :sad: :mad :d'oh! :so there I would like your thoughts on this MISS/MR/MR's/MS FOZZIE/OZZIE/RELLA????



Catch 22

07 Mar 2007, 17:07

Very insightful what you say.

1. The 2003 strike helped spark the initial move towards the competition, and with a regulator who's sole purpose is to give a certain amount of the market to the competition it happened.
2. RM do not want strikes either as customers have a record of trusting the current senior mgmt and RM with it's high level of quality at the moment. I mena Postwatch literally don't have a leg to stand on and moan about peripheral things at the moment.
3. However, Leighton tested the Union's resolve in 2003 and (depending on your view) saw the CWU cave in and put SDD in anyway.

CWU and where they are going. As I said before the heads of the union and the senior negotiators at RM have each other's personal mobile numbers, talk like long lost friends, and rumour has it even go for beers. Its more like a scene from Shakespeare than anything else. I suppose the threat of compulsory redundancy always hangs overhead, yet this has never happened. I think the Heads of the Union know that further cuts will come and its about negotiating reasonable packages for voluntary redundancy, in return the CWU heads promise not to spark off strikes etc... Obviously this is not how they wish to be seen by their members as they would get crucified.

Another problem is probably the reduction in new membership as foreign workers come in who are not used to unions and don't trust the established Union setup. I can't prove this and it's only a feeling. You lot are porbably better placed, but in my own experience during strikes it was mainly younger non-stereotypical anglo-saxons who broke the picketline to work.

I'm not sure if I have actually really answered your question or skirted round the edges.

1. If I was a senior Blue I would be fairly militant and then get my redundancy cheque when the machinery starts enterin gthe building. Don't be surprised if you union reps get their redundancy cheques before others, especially the militant ones. Let's just say I saw this happen first hand!
2. If I was a bit younger I am not so sure what I would do.
3. If I was new, I'd run a mile probably

Remember that mechanisation has been going on since the Agricultural Revolution and has always displaced jobs, and there has been different levels of resistance depending on union strength, it generally only slows down the inevitable rather than halting it. RM would be made not to try and remove as much manual-handling as possible. If TNT, UK Mail and DHL are using state-of-the-art machinery it means they can under-cut RM quite easily and they have big purses behind them. They also do not have the pension legacies and other historical costs to cover, apart from maybe within their own domestic markets.

UK Mail will get bought out within 18 months and that leaves 2 main players against RM, unless someone else comes in like UPS. All three have deep pockets and if they want to attack the UK market like TNT are doing at the moment then they can. These companies are not Johnny-Come-Latelies like we had in the BT privatisation scenario. TNT and DHL/Deutschepost have the technology and expertise from abroad. What they do not have is detailed market information like RM has, and they do not have the local street knowledge, but they do have access to newer and more intelligent local route mapping services. This is obviously not as good as you, but is closer than previous attempts, and both TNT and DHL have been testing them in recent months.

At the moment no-one has ground RM into the ground. Some suggest it could become the new Railtrack/Network Rail, which I personally would be surprised by. I personally think RM senior mgmt want a two-tier model like British Gas and BT which is to sell bulk-mail services (wholesale) and retail-mail services (Retail). They have already setup a department called Wholesale which manages the current access agreements and recent news stories talks a bout retail zonal pricing as a way of protecting the USO. I personally agree with this approach, as I think it will open the door for more innovative products to reach the market place, which hasn't happened yet, and is more likely to keep RM in tact in the medium to long run.

However, if the DTI decide to sell off RM then who knows, as signs are that the postal market is in long term decline as a form of communication!

F0zzie says fingers are hurting and time to do something that justifies his salary $$$$$$$$$$$$.$$


07 Mar 2007, 17:30

I was just going to say, the amount you reply to us ( even though it creates good debate ) maybe we should have your duty timed and see if there is a saving to be made. good afternoon.

07 Mar 2007, 17:43

baggee wrote:I was just going to say, the amount you reply to us ( even though it creates good debate ) maybe we should have your duty timed and see if there is a saving to be made. good afternoon.

He's got a point though Fozz :neutral: :nervous

07 Mar 2007, 18:25

Actually Fozz your wrong it was not the actual 2003 strike that sparked the open market and rush for competition, it was just after the Labour goverment came to power in 97 Blair tried to privatise RM but was defeated, so in 98 he gave RM commercial freedom, and apointed a regulator to look at the postal market, we all new then that he only had one agender, backdoor privatisation,because Blair coulnt get his own way, that was the year the goverment stopped taking 90% of RM profits, it was also when the loss making years started due RM bad financial decisions i.e buying companies all over the world and then selling them at a loss, changing well known branded names like RM, PO to Consignia, dropping the price of a second class stamp by 1p, that alone cost the company millions. If you remember it was the goverment who decided to open up the market 2 years early, my own opinion is that the company wants strikes so it is easier to get rid of people and also makes part privatisation more apealing to the general public. Thank god Leighton and Crozier came to our rescue, yeah right. :wink:

Out of context

07 Mar 2007, 18:40

Don't get me wrong I'm not blaming someone for going on strike and possibly going national.

However, many customers felt the 2003 strike was the last straw and made it much asier for unproven competitors to come along and start taking business. Of course you need the market opened up, but who is going to jump first?

Secondly a certain undercover programme appeared miraculously at the same time (rumour has it the competition either funded it or nudged a few people) helped rock consumer/customer confidence in both RM's integrity and quality of service.

As for my time, it's all about output management boys & girls. The way it should be. Then if you're only on two days a week and the rest of the time your at board meetings on ur blackberry then replying to you all is possible. If only it were like that

F0zzie eyeballing Big Al with envy

07 Mar 2007, 20:38

Apologies Mr Fozz

In '79 when BT was privatised they had 250,000 staff, but now have only 60,000.

But the Telecoms industry now has 300,000 staff.

In the longer term, I'd expect the same to happen in the Postal industry.

RM will shed staff by the bucketload, and others will grow, but the total amount in the industry will stay about the same (less the reduction for automation)

The CWU will start recruiting in the other operators to drive their terms and conditions up, which at the same time protects the terms of their members in RM.

I've said elsewhere that Business Post drivers are on minimum wage, Royal Mail's are on nearly double that with the recent pay deal out to ballot now.

The Union could find itself a victim of its own success. RM simply use the terms and conditions of other operators to drive their costs down, hence my comments about driving others up.

A major bust up is inevitable, but I believe it'll come from the floor up to HQ, not the other way round. Yes, it'll drive work into the competition, but I don't beleive the blueshirts would or should roll over and be shafted just because there's competition.

Ask anyone who works in Asda what they think of their terms and conditions when Leighton had finished with them and you'll get the true story.

Change is inevitable, so is a bust up, but as the competition grows, jobs will be relatively plentiful in the same industry. Tell them you're an ex RM worker and they'll snap your hand off.

Your wage won't be anywhere near what it is now, and it's only then that you'll realise how good your union actually was/is. Let them in your new place, and you can only benefit.

Unity is Stength

DESPATCHED. Well and truely...

07 Mar 2007, 20:52

:sad: Fozz old bean hope the fingers are not to sore after this days replys you have turned in as homework!! Hope NANNA blows on them and rubs ya belly when you've been scoffing all your tuck on your meal relief's s s ! She wouldnt go on strike and leave her Ikl Fozziewozzie alone with all these big nasty blueshirts about!! :shock: :nervous

I will go thru your comments when ive time and find some sense in them no doubt? I do agree on points but on the National strikes in 03 :d'oh! Me stands by my first opinion of RM want us out for a reason.. We had it in E.L.M.C. Last year when close supervision as put upon the workers, FOUR at a time Managers stood not feet away for very long periods over looking and intimidating people in there work.. They even put a Manager in my area that i had a H+B case against. Moved this person in 2 my work area just 2 prevoke a reaction and a walk out. I never bit, As ALL other good people didnt,, I Marked this in my case at appeal but this went on deaf ears as "so what"?? RM wanted us out so they could do what they did @ another MC. Watford if im not mistaken? Where RM wouldnt let anybody back to work under there last contract and only if the work force relinquished there former rights!! Im sure this is correct? Thats what we where told anyways!!! SO we endured weeks of close supervision and H+B. claims went in by the shed load and most came 2 nothing, NOT a single CWU rep from Headquarters came 2 see the workforce in this time... Area and local reps defended us as good as they could, Sitting down in a vipers nest of lies and Bull. The outcome was a Rep was given a charge much like Burslems Dave.. Not sacked but removed BEFORE any fact finding or clear the air meeting was brought up.. I cant name names as a IT is still in the offing But i hope The person, My mate gets the result he AND we all deserve as RM lied and desciminated against .... 1 word... FILTH!!!

The point on anglo saxons breaking picket lines is BOLLOCKS in my veiw Fozzie.. And if that remark was said that Non white people of a older age scabbed then a new ball game would encure!!! Racism!! N wots Younger Non-stereotypical anglo saxons???? :hmmmm
:no no :no no :no no That is what RM call Positive discrimination.. And i dont go along with that crap!!! Discimination is wrong what ever!!!! :so there OUT....


Again you raise good points

07 Mar 2007, 22:14

I've read with increasing interest and recognise that alot can be learnt from the experts ie. postmen/women and other frontline people. I have always tried to keep my ears and eyes open and listen and absorb.

I knew some of the management at East London. There has been a recent shake-up in the Area management is my understanding as well.

I'm not sure I agree with senior mgmt actively trying to provoke a strike. I've never personally witnessed the orders given for this and knew all of the AGMs and the Operations Director Tom Melvin and his direct team. This does not mean that this doesn't happen, but I was around when Oxford was going through many strikes and didn't witness that. I did witness the approach of changing contracts before coming back. Tom Melvin has tight hand on the tiller of operations and if something like that was/is going on then he is your man to seek out, not Adam Crozier or Allan Leighton as they are now more removed from the operation.

I take your point about BT. I reckon with RM that the delivery operation will stay in tact for sometime and it's open for debate whether the overall number will increase. One thing I'm sure of if you have 2 maybe 3 full networks that environmentally unsound and ethically abhorrent.

As for unionisation of newly formed businesses. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens at some stage, but as long as we keep drip feeding in more European countries and accessing their cheap labour it will help surpress wages at the minimum level (I am not advocating this, but just point out the commercial approach).

If I've missed a point please remind me and I'll give a reply.

I think you'll take from my responses that I was/am an idealist socialist, but nurtured and succumbed to the captialist / exploitative commercial approach to life!

F0zzie :dance doesn't know whether he's a lefty or righty



07 Mar 2007, 22:43

FOZZIE, Wot is a Non stereotypical anglo saxon when he/her is at home??? Could your comments be RACIST AND AGE'ST!! As i said if the comment was OLD NON ANGLO SAXON THAT SCABBED (WHICH MANY DO) Then this would be racist!! Maybe im picking hairs but PC is something that the world has gone crazy with.. I say again any discrimination is bad and shouldnt be stamped out....

As for the management you personally knew/know @ ELMC. I recon you never walked the floor with the many Managers who were drafted in just to close supervise the work force.. U prob had ya feet up in ya office with a picture of Karl Marx on one wall and a picture of Maggie on the other!! :crazy: As for not blaming BIG AL or lil adam i think passing the buck down the line is just how RM like to do things, If it gets to hot put a buffer inbetween and blame them. Let the plebs take the fall, Namely the workers!!! I know you said seek out this Tom Melvin but in the end BIG AL and lil adam will have to answer?? Or do they?? Just jump on the next gravey train to sainsburysland.. ALL ABOARD THE TRAINS LEAVING BIG AL SAFE JOURNEY!! :Applause (translates to PISS OFF AND NEVER DARKEN OUR DOOR AGAIN) MMMMMMM they do a lovely chicken Kiev with garlic n herbs!! Not the herbs you seemed to get from Holland Fozzie :roll:




07 Mar 2007, 22:44

Discrimination SHOULD BE STAMPED OUT!!sorry!!

Ah ok

08 Mar 2007, 13:56

Having written plenty I am slightly vague on my anglo-saxon comment. I think I referring to the fact that for those who have come to the country recently they are not used to the working practices in the UK. For those who have been around a few years are able to understand the need for a unionised environment and are more likely to join others on strike. I personally found that this was a general rule of thumb, though there were plenty of exceptions, which might actually discredit my view on this.

I only ever did a tour of ELMC a little while after it opened, but never walked it with the people who came to supervise. I find that a bizarre thing to do and again mention Tom Melvin. Adam Crozier and Allan Leighton have relied on him since shortly after coming into RM. I am not attempting to put a barrier I telling you that Tom Melvin (though he now has an MD of Royal Mail, which I have mentioned previously, and also mentioned the food chain in a typical operational area). Tom Melvin is one the one behind action at Oxford, and would be consulted about any proposed actions elsewhere in the country including East London, Burslem (spelling?). I am surprised you are not aware of him as he has been running the operational show for a number of years now. He is a white scottish version of Dr. Hibbert from the Simpsons and due for retirement, though keeps getting cajoled into one more year by the powers that be.

Please check him out as he draws mainly on his experiences from Scotland to run the operation. Banging on about Adam Crozier and Allan Leighton is fair to an extent in terms of pay, pension black holes etc... but the day-to-day operation is big TOM MELVIN's domain. Check with your union rep.

F0zzie off for a big fat cat lunch. Whiskers or IAMS?

08 Mar 2007, 14:14

Yeh good old Tom.

May 8, 2004
As part of the management shift, Mr Crozier has appointed a new operations director, Tom Melvin, a 30-year Royal Mail veteran who will report directly to the chief executive.

Bet the Managers love him!!!!
Tom Da Man wrote:Evening Standard (London), Oct 25, 2005 by BEN LEAPMAN

ROYAL MAIL executives will be working in sorting offices at Christmas as the company attempts to make big savings.

Every manager will be asked to carry out 10 days of sorting or delivering mail instead of the firm hiring casual workers and students to clear backlogs of festive post.

They have been told the company must save Pounds 50 million in the next six months to hit profit targets. Last December, Royal Mail spent Pounds 15million employing 22,000 casuals to sort and deliver two billion Christmas cards and presents.

In an email to the 5,000 managers, leaked to the Standard, UK operations manager Tom Melvin said: "We must drastically reduce the casuals we were planning to bring in by asking our own people - you - to cover as many shifts as possible.

"Please free up your diaries so that you are able to volunteer for at least 10 dates."

While the scheme is voluntary, managers are under pressure to take part after a trial run last year proved a flop with sporadic take-up.

Mr Melvin said that reaching the savings target would trigger a Pounds 400a-head bonus for employees.

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